VSCERL
I've been interested in those Advans to replace my tired Direzzas.
What diff are you running?
Past: '99 Hellrot/Dove M3 | '97 S14 1JZ | '06 Triumph Daytona 675 | '01 330I M-Tech I | '99 Silvia S15 | Current: '96 Estoril/Black M3
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Running a Diffs online 4 clutch, and per class rules im running the stock 3.23 final drive. Those guys have been awesome to work with.
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This update is a few events run and small kind of fiddly stuff since I haven’t been running as much as I would have liked. I have been able to continue running with the Kentucky and Tennessee regions in Bowling Green at NCM which has been fun. The more frustrating part is my home region has still not gotten our site back since the COVID shutdowns. Kind of frustrating to not have your nice large local site available. Oh well progress is being made so lets get to that.
Kentucky region event August 16th
This was a fun event where I was finally able to test the Yoks in the dry for an entire event. This was held on the Auto-x pad at NCM in Bowling green Kentucky. Kentucky Region put on a well run event without many delays and based on my work and run order I was able to be loaded on the trailer by 1:30 so that was super nice. Pretty warm day so the AC was a welcome addition for keeping me comfy and able to concentrate.
This was my first time stacking dry runs on the Yoks and their reputation as been potentially vague if you oversize the tire for the rim seem to be true. I need to get some 245s on a 9 inch wheel to compare these 255s to. I really struggled to put together a full run with no mistakes. The grip and feel of the tires seemed to change corner to corner which made it quite tricky to have a run to went completely to plan. Was this due to heat buildup (apparently these are sensitive to that) Its hard to say. Further testing is required. When the tire feels happy its very sticky but that just seemed to be a moving target. Overall fun event but more information and setup time is needed.
Heading Out Before the Sun
No grills courtesy of a drive through car wash. You would think I knew better.
Some Cool shots a Photographer Got at the event.
Auto-X by NCM September 5th
I came across this event randomly and decided to give it a try. Held by the track staff on the auto-x pad of the track. $50 no working and as many runs as I could fit in before the end of the day. What’s not to like? Fun event with lots of runs to play with pressures as well as take a break to let the tires cool and watch the Bikes on the big track. Great weather and fun folks there made this a super laid-back test and tune. I left at lunch after quite a few runs in an effort to save the tires for the rest of the year. I did learn that these tires do indeed have a magic run when they are cool then slow down quite a lot. On a 30 sec course I dropped 1 sec after I let them cool. This was with the same pressures and settings. The new challenge will be to figure out have to keep these puppies cool. I may have to bust out my old cooler filled with Ice water and towels that we drape over the tires between runs. Two driving the car will make this an even bigger challenge. Great data and a fun day throwing the old girl around. No big complaints.
NCM Auto-X Pad
Bikes getting ready to go on the big track.
Radio and speakers
As part of my, make the car more enjoyable in the grid efforts, I decided it was a good time to upgrade my head unit to a newer one that had blue tooth capability and all of the buttons actually working. I cant pull the sound system completely out based on class rules so in the same vein as the AC If I’m going to carry the weight it better work well. The car had previously had an aftermarket head unit put in it that did not work well anymore and looked out of place. I decided to grab the non cd VDO head unit that ECS sells since it would look “right” and had hands free capability for my phone with the added bonus of being able to stream music as well. Not to mention its tiny,
I weighed the out-going head unit when I pulled it out and it was a chunky 4.5 lbs the new head unit came in at just 1.5 lbs, Id call that a positive change. Once the new head unit was installed and wired up I was able to hear the speakers that were in the car already for once. The pervious setup was put in with an interesting approach that never really sounded good and even. Some of the speakers were being used like 2-way speakers and were not so the sound had some sonic holes in it. My friend who helped me with the install recommended some JBL speakers for the rear shelf and front kick panels so that’s what I went with. These also came in lighter than the outgoing speakers (1lb lighter per pair) so better sound and no added weight. The new setup is very nice sounding and importantly lighter. Overall the in grid experience has been greatly improved which just makes race days that much more enjoyable on the whole. Sometimes it’s the little things haha.
Not a perfect color match but It looks sooo much better than what was there.
My buddy, who's the expert, with the old speakers that had no integrated tweeters
What I went with.
As always thanks for reading along, Not sure when the next update will be based on the race schedule ahead and my current car development plans. This has been a fun road but we are definitely getting into the law of diminishing returns stuff on the car now. The brakes are still in the works but not a huge priority at the moment. Let me know if you have any questions or input.
Last edited by snakebit8; 09-10-2020 at 01:25 PM.
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Its been a long time since I've posted on this build thread. The lack of the local region and lots of big life changes have definitely put this project on the back burner. I'm getting ready to do some pre season prep in hopes of doing a little traveling and getting some quality seat time for the upcoming year.
Since the engine change I have run some cheaper synthetic oil in the car as kind of low cost break in oil. Not putting many miles on the oil at all before changing it. Just making sure that all the potential contaminations from having the engine open have worked their way out. Now with the new season coming I'm looking at getting good redline oil back in the car. I previously ran their 5w-50 oil in an effort to lessen the ticking that the top end of the engine made when hot, but after seeing what all the lifters looked like when we pulled it apart I realize that was just a band aid. I'm trying to decide if I run the same oil in this one or maybe go lighter since the top end isn't as noisy on this new engine. I have also debated trying their Racing oil since this is almost solely a race car and the change intervals are so short, even during a normal season. I've looked to try and get peoples experiences with that oil but I really haven't found anything. Has anyone here run that oil? Any advantages? any Disadvantages? Just stick with the normal street oil? Am I just bored and making this complicated when they don't need to be?
Really hoping to get some good events in this year and maybe do some more tire testing to see if I can find a potentially better option than the Yoks, Its extremely temp sensitive for a 2 driver car in the south, also pretty pricy given the short life they offer. If big events are in the cards for this year a backup for local events that doesn't hurt the wallet as bad could be a good thing.
As always thanks for reading along, hopefully I'll actually have some meaningful updates coming up as season prep begins.
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I'm interested to hear what you find on tires. Since Bridgestone decided to discontinue the RE71R without offering a replacement, I'm kind of at a loss for what to get. I probably have a half a season left on the set on it now and was planning to get another set this year, but I'm too late for that now.
Where do you feel you're at on the front sway bar? My car turns in nicely but likes to push through corner, I feel like it's limiting my cornering speeds. Everyone says the M3 reacts counterintuitively to the front sway with the stock camber curve, but since I have camber plates I'm not quite sure if I should go tighter or softer on the front bar to help some of the mid-corner balance.
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The new Falkens seem to be getting some attention, I've heard some interesting things about the new Kumhos and Nankangs as well. For me I always liked the BFGs over the Bridgestones, they suited my driving style better as well as being better with a co-driver. Just did not get as greasy with heat as the RE71R. Still believe the Yoks are the fastest currently but they are tricky to keep happy in my experience, need to try 245s on a 9 inch wheel to see if I'm chasing weird pinched tire characteristics.
The sway bar settings are really dependent on spring rates. Overall balance usually goes to the springs and ride heights (I made huge gains playing with rear ride heights) and you can fine tune some stuff with the bars. I have the large GC front bar set on the softer side. When I had it stiffer I found I lifted the front tire a lot and it made it clunky in transitions. Initial turn in being ok then having steady state be a problem could be a few things but I don't know enough about the setup to know for sure. One thing I would definitely confirm be fore making changes is that you have no odd preload in the front bar. I ran into that issue when I was changing ride heights a lot. If that's fine I think you need to look at the front tire wear to determine if you have too much or too little. The advantage of the stiff front bar is that you help the Mac strut front maintain camber, that said, its possible to throw too much at it and overwhelm the front. In the end the best way I've found to know is do a test. Run a base line, change it one way , run again, then change it the other way run again, then change it back. see if you feel the same thing.
What's your setup like?
All This said, setup is very driver taste dependent and everything effects everything. Always fun to try and chase down what works best for YOU. I've been lucky, my last few co-drivers have similar styles to mine so me making a setup that I like works for them as well.
Last edited by snakebit8; 03-02-2021 at 08:27 AM.
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I'm just under 3 hours from Lincoln, I should really get out to one of their test and tune days so I can actually try out some changes. Most events I'm too busy running around to actually adjust and measure anything.Originally Posted by snakebit8
Ground Control Koni coilovers, springs 525lb front 700lb rear, UUC adjustable swaybars front and rear. Camber -3F/-1.8R, Toe 1/4" out front, 1/8" in rear. 245/40R17 on a 17x9 wheel.What's your setup like?
The thing is immensely stable, anytime something gets out of line it's very easy to catch and recover. I haven't ever spun it when I wasn't trying something stupid. But I think part of that is that the rear is almost too planted and getting on the gas through a corner only causes it to push more.
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What wall thickness is your bar? And how far from the end of the bar is the center of the linkage block?
I was running the small GC bar (.120") and 800lb front springs/900lb rear springs with no rear bar. I found that turn in was magnificent, but steady state cornering just didn't seem to have enough front grip. And that's with 4 degrees negative camber in front and 2.5 in back. I tried to order the large bar from GC, but in the end they told me that there isn't a Lg (.188") E36 front bar. Only Sm and Med (.150"). The E46 was the only one that had a Lg. So I pestered them and when the time came to replenish their stock of E36 bars, they custom made me a Lg bar. They may have acquired some extras though.
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How is the weight distribution with the heavier engine in the front? You could play around with getting the car to rotate more if putting the power down isn't a problem. I found that the rake can change that balance pretty quickly. Maybe try raising the rear a little to get it to rotate more mid corner? I've set mine up to be on the loose side, I can rotate it at will with trail braking and appropriate throttle input. The nose works really well unless I'm just overly ambitious on entry.
When I bought it directly from ground control in 2017 they had 3 bars as options, large, medium, small.. I rechecked my order sheet from them and It says large on the order. My impression was that this is the 0.188" bar. The interesting thing is they sent me an e46 bar initially and when I let them know they sent the wrong bar they had to resend the e36 bar. The bars themselves seemed very similar except for the obvious shape difference. I've never confirmed the sidewall thickness though. I looked to see if I had any pictures of the actual setting of my endlinks on the bar but the hubs always hide them. I'll have to check that when I'm around the car again. I do know they are pretty far out towards the ends of the bar(softer). I don't really have a front grip issue in the car, nose plants and the rear just kind of dances behind. This of course doesn't mean its perfect, it just does what I ask it to when I ask it, I'm sure more tweeking could get more grip once I decide on my next tires.
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The new engine isn't any heavier than the old. Tim Mc weighed his stock '97 sedan at 3237lbs stock, all of the other E36 M3 sedans I can find are 3200 +/- 50lbs, the sedans are porkier than the coupes. After my swap I weighed 3184 with full luxury pack interior, 70lb power seats, sunroof, full size battery, and everything. It's 52 front/48 rear - I pushed my radiator quite a bit forward to make room for a nice big electric puller fan, so that's probably 40lbs of components and fluid way out on the nose.
I'll play with the rear height and see what I can get it to do. Thanks!
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Ah yes the fact that these cast iron blocks weigh so much still surprises me some time. I actually have a 99 m3 with 5.3l ls in my possession right now (assembly required) and its still interesting to realize there isn't a horrible weight difference.
Biggest thing when playing with stuff is one change at a time. The good ole scientific method, one variable at a time. Maybe try your sway bar tweeks first to see if you can fix the "trouble" end of the car. If that doesn't bring you anything maybe the rear is the problem. How are your ride heights overall? Any chance the front is too low and causing roll center problems?
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Wow! I guess I keep forgetting that these thing can be pretty heavy. My 93 325is was 2,380 the last time I had it on the scales. That WAS with the Single Vanos 97 Z3 aluminum block based engine build (confirmed 50lbs lighter by me). I'm doing some more for weight reduction and hoping I can come in at 2,350 or less with this latest build.
If you get the chance, pop one of the plastic plugs out of the end of the bar and measure it up. I'd be very curious to know the thickness. I've got some math to share with you on bar rates if you're interested.
Last edited by jakermac; 03-03-2021 at 02:26 PM.
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I think I was too low two seasons ago (2019), I just wasn't competitive like I used to be even on fresh Bridgestones. Last year I raised it up so the front control arms were level and the rear fender was 1/2" lower than the front and got fast again, at least until my tires really fell off at the end of the season.
I'll have to invest in some adjustable front endlinks and see what I can do about the front bar.
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I was at 2368, full glass, no cage, no passenger seat, skinny (235s) worn out tires.
I'd love to find a good Z3 Al block to build! 50lbs, that'd be a chunk off the front end. That kind of weight loss doesn't happen when you're already skinny.
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So what's the verdict on that Bimmerworld exhaust with the cat in place? We don't have a sound limit at our site, but I'm not a fan of driving really loud cars.
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It's pretty loud, When I'm on the street it feels kind of obnoxious haha. Maybe I'm just getting old. The sound meter on our site had it at 94db at the last event. Our site limit is 96db so Its right on the line. Nice and light but quite loud and raspy. Without the cat and resonator I bet its straight up overpowering.
Summer 2021
So My local club finally got our site back this June. Its been a long year with no local events. While I still lived in Nashville I ran with both the Tennessee and Kentucky Regions in the Absence of Tennessee Valley Regions nice Huntsville site. With the return of this site though the car needed some pre season prep. All of the fluids need changing after a short period post engine change. I went with Redline fluids for the Engine, trans, and diff. Using this opportunity to try the Redline Race Oil in a 40wt to see if it helps with the valve ticking.
After the Fluid Change we had a test and tune and then our first event. So far with the Race oil the top end has been much quieter than it was with the cheaper break in synthetic oil. The trans and Diff also feel good with all the fresh fluids.
We also decided to try New Tires this year as the Yoks were quite pricy and temperamental, not to mention backordered when I tried to order them. We tried out the Falken 660s since we got them very affordably and they were in stock. Overall the grip is nice and they feel decent but they do not handle heat very well at all. In a two driver car we absolutely cooked them, even when triple spraying them in between runs on a low 90 degree day. We have some other ideas to try and keep temperature in control but you could feel them getting greasy and the cars balance was negatively effected by the heat. The Old BFGs were masters at staying happy even with the two of us beating on them. Besides the tires getting greasy the car still feels great. We just need to get more seat time to try and compete in the local pro class. We aren't paxed well but its good to push yourself.
I also managed to get a picture of the end of the sway bar. I had a set of calipers but i don't think they were calibrated well since the number they gave didn't line up with any of the values you gave for them.
As always thanks For following along. Hopefully it wont be too long before the next update.
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Interesting that you saw heat issues with the 660s. The RE71Rs were famous for heat issues, too. Did you go with a 245 or stick with the 255? I'm running the 255/40 on a 9" wheel and didn't have any heat issues at our last event, even in 90 degree temps. But I'm a single driver and it was a sub-40 second course, so they definitely weren't getting pushed as hard as yours.
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Running 255/40/17 I need to do some testing of the 245 vs 255 on few tires but the opportunities and commitment to the season hasn't been there. Hopefully next year Things will be more stable and I can dive into that a bit.
Yeah roughly 60 second course with two aggressive drivers definitely put a lot of heat in these tires. I may pull out the ice cooler with tire towels next event and see if that helps. Back in the day the two of us tried the Bridgestones but found they were worthless after the first runs since they got so hot. Also an issue we had with the Yoks. Rivals really have been the easy button for us when it comes to not overheating tires, they liked the heat.
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Update
So Not a whole Hell of a lot has been happening with this car recently. I've been trying to drive it locally and keep making it better. Don't really care for the Falkens I've discovered, My co Driver agrees. Oh well gotta test right. Just wish my Beloved BFGs were fast enough, and weren't crap in the wet.
I also have had an issue with sound at our home site. We have a hard 96db limit and the 3 inch Bimmerworld race exhaust is just a bit too loud with a high flow cat and the resonator installed. Because of this I have some decisions to make for resolving this. Do I add a second Resonator in the middle of the exhaust to hopefully temper down that rasp that I think keeps peaking the sound meter, or do I put a larger rear muffler on it with hopes that that will do the job that's needed. I'm still wanting to keep it as light and free flowing as possible so trying to figure out the best rout forward is challenging. Does anyone have any experience trying to get this particular exhaust to meet strict sound limits? Any experience adding another resonator? Any light but effective main Mufflers (3 inch straight through is) that people like? I'm genuinely not sure what my next step should be to get this sorted correctly with decent safety Margin.
Was planning on towing out to Lincoln this year For Solo Nationals but with the sound limit issue and a weird key issue with the ignition switch I decided to bum a ride at Nats to get some Concrete time and revisit the big show. It was my first time at Lincoln (last ran nationals in Topeka) and I can say Its an awesome experience. 10 out of 10 would recommend A trip out if you are even a little bit curious. So much more grip than I was used to on all the asphalt I've driven over the years. I have decided I need to be making an effort to get more Big event seat time. It really does have a different feel to it. I was able to get a Co-drive in a BS Evora. Pretty different car to learn but still quite fun to drive. My biggest issue was cones over the week. I kept hitting them with the rear fenders. In the M3 I can just put the front tires on the cones and I'm able to slither through, the Lotus needed you to leave a gap. The rear fenders were as wide at the side view Mirrors. I definitely struggled with the adjustment while negotiating pinches. Overall pace was decent but no clean runs on the 2nd day didn't help my overall results. I went into my 3rd run on day 2 thinking I had a clean run in the bank, It ends up I did not, oh well you live and you learn,
Plans going forward with this car. Need to run it at big events more. I believe We are Planning on hit the Charlotte tour in October once I get the exhaust a bit more civilized. We may even try to hit Dixie 2.0 as well if the stars align, who knows. Also need to get some letters written about reclassing. If I can`t get it reclassed It may be time to finish this experiment and move on to something else. Not sure what that will be yet but It will make me sad since the car is so fun to drive, but if you want to compete the car matters. Current E36 prices do Give me some hope that If I go to sell it I can recoup more of my money than I originally thought but I'm still hoping it doesn't come to that.
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What dB did it measure at? A turndown pointed away from the meter will "pass" if it's not too far off. More of a temporary solution though. Probably won't make your region happy, as it gives the NIMBYs something to bitch about.
I've got a Flowmaster 3in x 17in long hushpower muffler and vibrant 3 inch resonator on mine with a 200 cell cat. The muffler is about 12lbs and resonator 5.5. No idea what the dB reading is, but the timing truck or corner workers never complained about my car.
If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, Burns Stainless mufflers are nice and light.
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With a turn down I was around 97-98. One run the claim 100 but there is no way in hell. Ideally id like to be low 90s so this isn't an issue, always being the loud guy isn't that fun. I'll look into the hushpower, I've heard someone mention that one before. Thanks!
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Do you think you'd feel differently if they didn't overheat so badly, especially in a 2-driver car? My last three events were 3rd, 2nd, and 1st in raw, and I'd attribute a big chunk of that to the switch from 245 Bridgestones to the 255 Falkens this season, so I have no complaints about them yet.
I've only been there once but it made all of our local venues look terrible. I'm only about 3 hours away and definitely need to get there again, maybe when time and cash allows.It was my first time at Lincoln (last ran nationals in Topeka) and I can say Its an awesome experience. 10 out of 10 would recommend A trip out if you are even a little bit curious.
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I'm putting together a 3" exhaust for my other car, and I'm trying to make it as quiet as possible. I wanted it all to be SS, and weight wasn't as important as noise reduction, so my goals are slightly different than yours. I haven't put it together yet, but maybe some of these parts will help (may need to look for slightly different model for different fitment).
Small resonator:Vibrant 1142 3" Ultra Quiet Resonator
Bigger resonator: MagnaFlow 6in Round
Muffler (21 pounds?): MagnaFlow 5in x 11in
Alternate and lighter muffler (10 pounds?): Borla 40349
I can't find the page anymore, but there was a big comparison test many years ago and it found the Borla ProXS was the quietest 3" muffler (last choice above). Not sure if it's still accurate however.
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It may be a 2 driver in the south Kind of Problem, also just not crazy about the feel of them. They are pretty quick just not my cup of tea I guess. For Info I hated the feel of the Bridgestones and lots of folks loved those so its one of those "It's not you it's me" kind of things I think.
Also, If I was 3 Hours away, Id hit every Nebraska Region local for that glorious sea of Concrete. It was Kind of funny, this last weekend we had a local event and all the folks that went to Nats were complaining about how unsettled our cars were but the locals said it all felt like always, we all decided it must be the concrete grip hangover haha.
Yeah You kind of confirmed it for me. I ordered the Vibrant resonator. Gonna try and add that. Lets hope its enough. Just need to drop a few more db.
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Since the Last update a few things have happened. I got the vibrant resonator in and got it welded into the exhaust. It managed to take all the rasp out of the upper revs of the powerband. This cutting of the rasp dropped me well below our local sound limits of 96 db. Would say this was a huge success given what we needed to get done. It didn’t add a ton of weight, but it got me where I needed to be so yaay for that.
I ended up testing it by quad driving it at the next local event, 2 drivers in Pro class and 2 in open. It was super fun to drive and easily made sound so Id call that an overall win. This was also a great way to get some seat time for my co-driver for the next weekend at the Charlotte Champ tour. There was a decent STR class signed up so I wanted to test her on a big course against some fast ND Miatas to see where she actually stacked up. It was a fun tow over. I managed to stop by the BMW plant in SC on the way over to get a cheesy picture. Once we got there, we mounted up some fresh Yoks and went out to scrub them in at the test and tune. It felt good so we readied ourselves for what would hopefully be a fun weekend.
Car Felt good right out of the box. I felts like I was struggling to connect all the sweepers correctly and the data showed I was indeed losing time in that section compared to my co-driver. I also had (surprise surprise) cone trouble in my first two runs. Luckily I was able to clean up the last run with a decent overall time so that was useful. Data showed I left at least 3-4 tenths on the table compared to my codriver due to connecting all the sweepers poorly. I ended the day 4th out of 11, the last trophy spot. My co-driver was half a second and one spot behind me in 5th
Day two Brought about some better driving from me through the sweepers but I was still losing some time in odd sections compared to my co-driver. I would say I left potentially another 2-3 tenths out there based on our data but drove better overall. I managed to stay forth and in the trophies. My codriver was about a second back (1.5 total over 2 days) but still in 5th place overall.
All that said, I was 1.8 seconds back from the ND in 3rd place after 2 days. A full 3.2 seconds back from the class winner. I didn’t drive faultlessly but there is just too much of a gap there to be due to driver. The car being 700lbs heavier than the other cars in class (weighed 2885lbs that weekend) is just too much to overcome. I did do some talking with folks that weekend about moving the M3s to STX and there seemed to be quite a bit of support for it, even from the STX competitors that were there. This at least makes me feel better about the letter I’m about to right using this event as a data point. The more disheartening data point is the speed of STX at this event. STX beat STR at this event by half a second. Though this is not typically the case it does bring up the concern that even if it was reclassed, I would still have no chance in hell to compete. Maybe this was just an odd anomaly and normally I would be closer but it very hard to say.
Based on this very depressing realization I think its time to decide what I want out of this hobby. Do I want to build a car I love working on and is an absolute blast to drive that does really well locally? Or do I want to compete at the highest level with an actual chance to win something? I think I have come to the point that I want to compete on the bigger stage, so I believe it’s time for me to sell my beloved M3 to fund my next build. If I had the resources Id totally just throw a roll bar in the M3 and use her as a track car. She has all the right bits and all the reliability Mods to be super good at that, but I really need the cash for my next proposed build. Will it be an ND2 Miata Build for STR? Will it be a new BRZ or GR86 if they class it for STX? Will it be something different? (e92 STU build would be a blast but expensive). I started this project expecting it to be unlikely to succeed and have genuinely enjoyed the process and learned a lot (as well as bring home hardware from every big event we went to) but It’s time for a change. I will be posting this build for sale on these forums as well as other spots as is with stock parts if wanted. If anyone that has followed along with the build is interested let me know.
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