M62tub44 guide/lifter help

[pyro225]

Hi all - I have a weeping rocker cover gasket I am going to change - whilst I have the cover off is there anything I can look at to semi assess the condition of the chain guide? And the chain itself if these are a problem? Currently have no issue with it but would be good to see if possible? Also I have a tappet sound and it won’t bleed - how much extra effort is involved once the cover is off to change?

Thanks!


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[pyro225]

Bump

[84318i]

What's the mileage ? If the guides have never been changed then they are most likely worn by 100k , sometimes sooner .

You may be able to see a little down the front timing cover but not much . If you drop the pan , it would be a good indication if you find parts of the rails in the pan (along with oil pump bolts )

[R Shaffner]

About cam covers and leaking...

With other cars, I've always tried to tighten cam/rocker covers first to see if that helped, before bothering to replace the gaskets. That can be a problem on the M62 because of the special nuts that attach the cam covers. They are made to bottom out at a certain point, before the gasket is squeezed too tight. As a result, I've had slow oil leaks from the cam cover gaskets even after replacing them. (Perhaps my covers were a bit warped -- they just wouldn't seal all around, even when I had the nuts as tight as I dared take them.)

Timm Meek of Meeknet had a great suggestion for fixing a similar problem with a leaking intake manifold. Before taking the step of replacing the gaskets, he would add a washer to the special nuts that hold the manifold on. That way the manifold gasket could be squeezed a bit tighter before the nuts bottomed out.

The last time I had a leaking cam cover from an M62TU I tried that solution. I found the right size washer and added it to the nuts, especially those that clamp the lower sides of the cam covers. It worked great and stopped the slow leaks. The gaskets were OK -- they just needed to be squeezed a bit tighter.

About the guides...

It all depends on how tight the chain is on those sections of the guides. On the downhill side, mine had almost no wear. Along the curved section in the middle of the V, there were pronounced grooves that the sides of the chain links had worn into the guides. The problem is that it's hard to see those sections when the chain is tight and the front chain covers are on. You might see them with the cam covers off if you removed the chain tensioner to give the chain a little slack. (Don't know.)

Now that I've said all that, I personally don't think worn grooves are the problem. When my guides failed at 200,000 miles, the plastic came apart in pieces and fell into the oil pan. In my experience, the metal parts BMW uses tend to last forever (so to speak) while the failing plastic parts cause all kinds of problems. My suggestion (and what I've done with my second 540) is to use a lower temp (non-mapped) thermostat. Mine runs at 88C. I don't know for sure, but I think the cooler temp will help the plastic parts last longer.

And of course, use the right oil and change it often. (I don't believe in long intervals. Certainly not on high mileage cars.)

Good luck!

[R Shaffner]

About the "tappet sound," that's usually from one or more hydraulic lifters. Not real easy to change. I've done it without removing the cam, by:

Trying to ID the cylinder and lifter, by sound
Removing the cam cover
Turning the engine so the relevant cam lobe is up (not in the way of the lifter you want to replace)
Removing the chain tensioner (to give the chain more play)
Loosening the camshaft bearing bolts so the camshaft can be lifted slightly.
Using some combination of a magnet, channel locks, and screwdrivers to pull the lifter up out of the head.
Put in a new lifter and reverse.

And after doing all that, I still had some of that clicking sound. Notorious BMW issue. Usually heard at idle once the engine is warm. (I wonder if a little water in the oil is turning to steam in the lifters causing a small air gap when hot enough, that isn't there when the car is cool.)

This topic has been covered a lot on this forum already. BMW suggests revving the engine for a minute or two to 3,000. Some folks have tried to use oil additives. Others just live with it, so long as it's only present at idle, when hot. I am doing that now with my '02 540i.

[pyro225]

Hi all - the tappet noise... was a loose spark plug! Problem solved - the washer on the gasket idea isn’t it nearly as much hassle as changing the gaskets?


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[R Shaffner]

Hi all - the tappet noise... was a loose spark plug! Problem solved - the washer on the gasket idea isn’t it nearly as much hassle as changing the gaskets?


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That's great about the plug.

About the washers...adding extra washers is WAY easier than replacing the gaskets. All you need to do is:

(1) Remove a lower cam cover nut and washer. Find 10-12 more washers like it (preferable stainless).
(2) Replace that nut with an additional washer, and do the same with all the other lower washers. Make sure to get them tight.
(3) Wipe off the old oil from the head and monitor for results.

And if you're like me, you'll find that you need extra washers even after you install new gaskets. A no-brainer in my book. (Always give the cheap and easy solution a chance to work first.)

[R Shaffner]

Here's a photo that might help. What you see are:
The head of the nut. (It looks like a bolt head, but it's actually a nut.)
Another metal washer that I added.
The stock metal washer.
The stock rubber washer (or seal).
(My cam covers are painted black with a wrinkle finish.)

The problem is that the stock rubber washer and the cam cover gasket both compress over time. The nut is designed to bottom out against a stop inside the cam cover. So you can only screw it in so far. As the rubber components compress, the fit becomes less tight and the gasket eventually leaks on the lower side. By adding another washer, you can compensate for the compressed rubber and turn the nuts down tighter. Often that will stop the leak.

[pyro225]

Ok fair enough - will this sort my leak into the spark plug holes too?


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[1999 540i m]

Ok fair enough - will this sort my leak into the spark plug holes too?


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This will only pull the studs from the valve cover, Don't do it! Change the gaskets

[R Shaffner]

This will only pull the studs from the valve cover, Don't do it! Change the gaskets

What are you talking about? My advice? If so then you are mistaken. You might not have understood my explanation. Let me try again.

The cam cover studs and nuts are made to squeeze the rubber washers and rubber gaskets enough to provide a good seal and keep oil from leaking. After enough time, and many hot/cold cycles, the rubber looses some of its flexibility and becomes permanently compressed. That especially happens to the rubber washers. That means they are putting too little pressure on the rubber gasket. That's why it starts leaking.

When the rubber gets less flexible, and permanently compressed, it also is putting LESS pressure on the nuts that hold the cam cover down. On many other cars, the easy solution is just to tighten the cam cover nuts or bolts a little tighter -- to where they are as tight as they were when the gasket was new.

In this case, with the M62, one can't do that because the nuts bottom out and cannot be tightened any further. By adding a second metal washer, slightly more space is provided before the nuts bottom out. So one can again squeeze the gasket as tight as it was before.

In short, I'm not saying to put more stress on the nuts or the studs. The cam covers don't need more pressure than they had originally -- the nuts just need more room to apply the same pressure. (As always, one should be careful to not over-tighten small nuts like these. They can strip easily, and if you overdid it one could pull the steel studs from the softer aluminum head. I'm not saying that one should overdo it. They shouldn't need to.)

And finally, it's worth noting that I've done this twice now on two different M62's, with no problems.

[1999 540i m]

What are you talking about? My advice? If so then you are mistaken. You might not have understood my explanation. Let me try again.

The cam cover studs and nuts are made to squeeze the rubber washers and rubber gaskets enough to provide a good seal and keep oil from leaking. After enough time, and many hot/cold cycles, the rubber looses some of its flexibility and becomes permanently compressed. That especially happens to the rubber washers. That means they are putting too little pressure on the rubber gasket. That's why it starts leaking.

When the rubber gets less flexible, and permanently compressed, it also is putting LESS pressure on the nuts that hold the cam cover down. On many other cars, the easy solution is just to tighten the cam cover nuts or bolts a little tighter -- to where they are as tight as they were when the gasket was new.

In this case, with the M62, one can't do that because the nuts bottom out and cannot be tightened any further. By adding a second metal washer, slightly more space is provided before the nuts bottom out. So one can again squeeze the gasket as tight as it was before.

In short, I'm not saying to put more stress on the nuts or the studs. The cam covers don't need more pressure than they had originally -- the nuts just need more room to apply the same pressure. (As always, one should be careful to not over-tighten small nuts like these. They can strip easily, and if you overdid it one could pull the steel studs from the softer aluminum head. I'm not saying that one should overdo it. They shouldn't need to.)



And finally, it's worth noting that I've done this twice now on two different M62's, with no problems.

I was not quoting your post, your option is fine for a leaking washer, or slight seepage, not for significant leakage, usually caused by brittle gaskets

The original poster should replace the gaskets, they will be very brittle,

[R Shaffner]

To 1999 540 m:
Are you guessing or have you actually removed and replaced cam cover gaskets on these engines? I've replaced both sets several times on 2 different 540s. The first time was after 190,000 miles and the cam cover gaskets were NOT brittle. The second time was on another car after 150,000 miles. The gaskets were still reasonably flexible. They pulled right off easily without tearing or breaking. The only reason I replaced them was because they're cheap, I already had them, and once the cam covers are off there's no reason not to.

(The front timing chain gaskets were brittle, yes. They're real thin. But not my cam cover gaskets.)

To pyro 255:
Yes, fixing the cam cover leak will generally prevent oil from collecting around the plugs. If you have only a little there, you can clean it and live with it for a while. If you have a lot, then you might need to put 2nd washers on all the cam cover nuts (my suggestion) or replace the gaskets.

Bottom line: No one knows how bad your gaskets are until they are removed. No one knows whether squeezing them a bit tighter will help, unless you try. I know I've done it often and it has helped, on these engines and many others. I was just offering what I think is probably an easy fix, and since it's so easy I think it's worth trying.

I am 100% confident that you won't hurt your car with my suggestion, provided that you don't tighten the nuts any tighter than one should when they are turning any steel bolts into aluminum (like the timing chain cover bolts). If you don't think you know what that is, then don't try it.

One more thing... you seem pretty unsure of all this. Are you not that experienced? These aren't the easiest cam covers to reinstall. I suggest that you review what it takes and make sure you're comfortable with what it takes to remove and reinstall these cam covers before you try, if you go that route.

[1999 540i m]

To 1999 540 m:
Are you guessing or have you actually removed and replaced cam cover gaskets on these engines? I've replaced both sets several times on 2 different 540s. The first time was after 190,000 miles and the cam cover gaskets were NOT brittle. The second time was on another car after 150,000 miles. The gaskets were still reasonably flexible. They pulled right off easily without tearing or breaking. The only reason I replaced them was because they're cheap, I already had them, and once the cam covers are off there's no reason not to.

(The front timing chain gaskets were brittle, yes. They're real thin. But not my cam cover gaskets.)

So you replaced gaskets that had been replaced before, of course they will not be brittle. I've built these engines from a naked block to fully assembled and running perfectly,

[R Shaffner]

So you replaced gaskets that had been replaced before, of course they will not be brittle. I've built these engines from a naked block to fully assembled and running perfectly,

No. I said on a '97 540 car I replaced the original cam cover gaskets at 190,000 miles -- they were compressed and not as pliable, but not brittle. (I've replaced others too.)

We probably agree on some points. Eventually, the rubber gaskets give out and should be replaced. No argument from me on that. (My suggestion was a way to delay that a while.)

We also agree that one should be careful when dealing with steel bolts or studs that go into aluminum heads. The stock BMW cam cover studs are made to compress the rubber gasket a certain amount and no more. (That's why someone cannot just tighten a leaking cam cover. My point was the rubber washers compress too -- more than the gasket -- which reduces pressure on the gasket. Adding a metal washer lets one compress the gasket again as it is supposed to be.)

BMW does not use that approach everywhere. For example, the timing chain covers, water pump, and many other components are attached with steel bolts going straight into the aluminum block and heads. Those items can be (must be) tightened sufficiently to hold those components and keep those areas from leaking.

Beyond that, we should call a truce and agree to disagree.

(Sorry, pyro225. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.)

[pyro225]

Hi - sorry not done rocker gaskets on m62 before but done plenty on m52 and m54 in the past so guessing it’s the same but multiplied by two? Also being in a Range Rover it has a big engine bay so space isn’t at as much a premium. Four plug wells had nearly 2inches of oil in them also there is always a burning oil smell when stopped when it hits the exhaust - so in essence just need to man up and do it... even if it’s one bank at a time. Would you always buy genuine gaskets?


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[R Shaffner]

That's a lot of oil! Gaskets made by Victor Reinz have worked well for me. Make sure to get a set that includes the rubber washers/seals for each nut, or buy them separately. (As you might have gathered from the debate, they compress over time and cause much of the problem.)

These instructions might help (for the 8 cylinder, further down the page), though it's pretty straightforward.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/tech...et_Removal.htm

BTW, I'd be curious to hear how compressed/pliable you think the old gaskets are when you remove them. And how many miles are on your car.