Finding of limits of 540i Supercharged with superbad gasoline...

[geargrinder]

Haha those poor tires. Stroker I5 build, get a few extra cc's by using a van crank.

Nice combo... fat audi 20V turbo powerband + a relatively light and great handling RWD E36. That guy makes it look easy for sure, but the E36 is probably a pretty good platform for that, Bimmers (post-E30's at least) are so communicative and predictable when they rotate.

I mighta posted some pics from this build before but my boy who bought my S6 (still has it, looking and working far better than when I sold it, which was not shabby either...) is building a big turbo built I5 thats plunked in his Volvo 240 track/drift build. Made a custom bellhousing to fit a ZF Bimmer tranny to it. Car has E36 rear end I think? I forget what the front end is but suffice to say, nothing Vo' 240 left except the wrapper sheet metal. Yep that's an M62TU throttle body on a custom intake mani. I think he's gonna run EmTron ECU now, he had a Syvecs or a Vi-pec (one of those 'ecs' I forget which) that he was going to use but he likes the EmTron in his S54 E30 so much he's been talking about getting a second for this build...

[tptrsn]

That is super sweet!!

[dovlet]

Haha those poor tires. Stroker I5 build, get a few extra cc's by using a van crank.

Nice combo... fat audi 20V turbo powerband + a relatively light and great handling RWD E36. That guy makes it look easy for sure, but the E36 is probably a pretty good platform for that, Bimmers (post-E30's at least) are so communicative and predictable when they rotate.

I mighta posted some pics from this build before but my boy who bought my S6 (still has it, looking and working far better than when I sold it, which was not shabby either...) is building a big turbo built I5 thats plunked in his Volvo 240 track/drift build. Made a custom bellhousing to fit a ZF Bimmer tranny to it. Car has E36 rear end I think? I forget what the front end is but suffice to say, nothing Vo' 240 left except the wrapper sheet metal. Yep that's an M62TU throttle body on a custom intake mani. I think he's gonna run EmTron ECU now, he had a Syvecs or a Vi-pec (one of those 'ecs' I forget which) that he was going to use but he likes the EmTron in his S54 E30 so much he's been talking about getting a second for this build...

No info about emtron k8. What is the price for that ECU?

[dovlet]

New errors.
SmartSelectImage_2017-12-17-17-36-38.jpgSmartSelectImage_2017-12-17-17-36-48.jpgSmartSelectImage_2017-12-17-17-36-38.jpgSmartSelectImage_2017-12-17-17-36-57.jpgSmartSelectImage_2017-12-17-17-37-11.jpg

[geargrinder]

No info about emtron k8. What is the price for that ECU?

Hard to say, its through-dealer-shops-only so you won't find it for sale online, but their better ECU's are in the range of $2-3k I think.

[geargrinder]

New errors.

1. 02 heating error - O2 before cat, bank 2. Could explain why closed-loop doesnt work
2. Thermostat error. Do you have 88C non-electrical thermostat? If so you need Terraphantms code to make errors go away.
3. This is same picture as #1. Was this supposed to be same error for Bank 1?
4. Evap error - doesn't matter much but something w/ your evap isn't working (mine throws errors sometimes as well, harmless)
5. Roughness? Not sure that's a problem?

[dovlet]

Changed o2 sensor. No changes. The same situation.

[dovlet]

Hi everyone, long time was fighting with some strange fuel acting. There was not long and short trim adaptation. Firstly i noted that by did not pay attention (thanks to Thad for his pointing and notes). So, after 100 things done (changing sparks, ignitors, fuel pump, fuel filter with pressure regulator, o2 sensors, ECU, and etc) decided to check all resistors, transistors, fuses, ground connectors and all those things which could be damaged in circuit. So, does not know what was the reason but i checked cleaned all fuses and put them back. Some of them had not good contact but did not realised which one.

[philly98540]

So adaptions working now?

[dovlet]

So adaptions working now?

Yes, it is working now very well.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, found good stand alone ecu from Ukraine, very chip & tried many times. A lot of success stories. Friend of mine build on that nissan and it works very well. Name is Invent EMS-2. It works with e-throttle and has bip 373 ignitors build in. Many pwm, anolog, digital signals supports for v8. Going to order it soon.

[tptrsn]

That is all excellent news!! I think you will be extremely happy with your car when you can control all aspects of the tune yourself with just the touch of a few keys on your computer.

[dovlet]

Hi Gents, just bought e36 96y 5speed m50b30 stroker with throttle from m60b30. It is M sport packages. Soon will make it turbo. Main reason was m50 iron block ready to be boosted.
20171228_214122.jpgSmartSelectImage_2017-12-28-22-30-50.jpg

[tptrsn]

That's a good looking ride, ready for some serious boost!!

[dovlet]

Hi Gents, a lot of things happen in my live and one of them is Black car is prohibited to drive in my country. Currently cannot drive it and waiting for painting shop to be free. Meanwhile my ordered items came and also waiting. Am planing to start cooling car when car will be painted.
20180222_134448.jpg20180222_134432.jpg20180222_134419.jpg

[geargrinder]

I was wondering were you were at.

That sucks man! DAMN that is CRAZY. Just read the Jalopnik story on it. Actually I dont like black cars myself very much so I'm kinda with the guy on that, but I dislike white cars even more, so, I guess not... !

Don't read this story its probably illegal to look at it for you , but for the other guys...

https://jalopnik.com/turkmenistan-ju...azy-1821778902

Bad luck to have had a black car when that happened.

Somebody should open a wrap-business in Ashgabat to wrap all the black cars - that way if the rule gets rolled back you could just unwrap the car again. Dovlet - you should do this - make a million bux (or manat I guess!)

[philly98540]

Almost thought that was a joke. For real, no black cars? Someone huffing paint in their Veyron over there? That is the craziest thing I've heard in a long while. I see you gots some parts collection growing. Good luck with install. It's a tight fit, but it will fit!

[dovlet]

I was wondering were you were at.

That sucks man! DAMN that is CRAZY. Just read the Jalopnik story on it. Actually I dont like black cars myself very much so I'm kinda with the guy on that, but I dislike white cars even more, so, I guess not... !

Don't read this story its probably illegal to look at it for you , but for the other guys...

https://jalopnik.com/turkmenistan-ju...azy-1821778902

Bad luck to have had a black car when that happened.

Somebody should open a wrap-business in Ashgabat to wrap all the black cars - that way if the rule gets rolled back you could just unwrap the car again. Dovlet - you should do this - make a million bux (or manat I guess!)

Bro, I cannot, I wanted to go in that way but you should have just painted car with no even small defect on paint. In other case wrapped material will not stay on car body. So, any way I have to paint it.

- - - Updated - - -

Almost thought that was a joke. For real, no black cars? Someone huffing paint in their Veyron over there? That is the craziest thing I've heard in a long while. I see you gots some parts collection growing. Good luck with install. It's a tight fit, but it will fit!

No comments, about black cars)))

I will start soon with cooler, but due to my orders were during Christmas time all my piping and fittings lost somewhere, will try to find them here locally.

[itsbrokeagain]

Someone needs to send Socom or the Seals over there to make that guy disappear. Guy is off his rocker.

[dovlet]

Hi Gents, it is time to say goodbye to my E39 540i Supercharged. One person gave a good price for it & I decided to sell. It was a good time and interesting 5 years with a lot of experience. The main things that I learnt are you never should try any forced induction things with TU engine. Also, never even think about build forced induction car with stock ECU. And the last one never do forcing induction to the engine with small displacement if you have bad gasoline...... Below is my car when it was just going to be painted.
20180605_222111.jpg

[geargrinder]

Hi Gents, it is time to say goodbye to my E39 540i Supercharged. One person gave a good price for it & I decided to sell. It was a good time and interesting 5 years with a lot of experience.

Cool, sorry to hear you never worked her out to your satisfaction, but it was a 'fun time' in the meantime! Have fun with your new project...

The main things that I learnt are you never should try any forced induction things with TU engine.

Also, never even think about build forced induction car with stock ECU

Well. Not exactly to either of those.

The TU loves boost and has proven to be pretty bulletproof if you do things right. Its just not an easy platform, especially if you have poor fuel.

Stock ECU's? I wouldn't say "never even". The ME7.2 platform is pretty unknown and undocumented. If we are talking MSS54 or even MS42 or 43, or some of the factory Japanese ECUs or even some American ECU's? Well, as long as you do your research ahead of time, and find that the mapping data is available and well known... nothing wrong with using a factory ECU. They ARE more complicated always, and they WILL usually have more hidden secrets vs a standalone that is all documented and has help files, but I would not take "never ever stock ECU" as a lesson. "Do your research and make a careful analysis before deciding to use Stock ECU" would be a better way to put it.

And the last one never do forcing induction to the engine with small displacement if you have bad gasoline......

ABSOLUTELY yes to that one! Might say "don't do forced induction on engine with high compression​ if you have bad gasoline" tho. Displacement doesn't really have much to do with it.

[dovlet]

[QUOTE=geargrinder;30043318]Cool, sorry to hear you never worked her out to your satisfaction, but it was a 'fun time' in the meantime! Have fun with your new project...



Stock ECU's? I wouldn't say "never even". The ME7.2 platform is pretty unknown and undocumented. If we are talking MSS54 or even MS42 or 43, or some of the factory Japanese ECUs or even some American ECU's? Well, as long as you do your research ahead of time, and find that the mapping data is available and well known... nothing wrong with using a factory ECU. They ARE more complicated always, and they WILL usually have more hidden secrets vs a standalone that is all documented and has help files, but I would not take "never ever stock ECU" as a lesson. "Do your research and make a careful analysis before deciding to use Stock ECU" would be a better way to put it.

Bro, standalone will never burn your engine unless you forcing do it and running your engine on its limit. Standalone will cut ignition if there is high temperature on the exhaust or knock occur, ME7.2 will never. Perhaps ME72 is trying to protect the engine, but it is unsuccessfully. That is why I am suggesting to switch to Standalone rather than stock ECU.

[geargrinder]

Bro, standalone will never burn your engine unless you forcing do it and running your engine on its limit. Standalone will cut ignition if there is high temperature on the exhaust or knock occur, ME7.2 will never. Perhaps ME72 is trying to protect the engine, but it is unsuccessfully. That is why I am suggesting to switch to Standalone rather than stock ECU.

Sorry my friend. This is outrageously incorrect.

There is nothing remotely inherently better/safer with a standalone than a stock ECU. Its all what parameters are put into it.

The stock ECU has all the same mixture and misfire/knock protection function that a standalone does.

ME7.2 absolutely has knock sensing with multiple sensors on the block.

You blew up your car because you have incredibly bad gas, and because you haphazardly threw hardware changes at the car without you having the ability to tune stock parameters to it.

That in no way is the fault of the stock ECU.

What blows up engines is:
- Incorrect parameters in the calibration/tune (too lean, too much advance, knock-thresholds raised way too high)
- Incorrect inputs to the ECU ('faking' or interfering with sensor inputs)
- Modifying hardware without adjusting ECU to match (pulleys on a blower, wastegate/BPV changes on a turbo, MAF sensor in a bigger tube, MAF resistor, different injectors, different cams, etc.)

The couple of features that ARE significant for a standalone over factory?
- If your factory ECU isn't designed for forced-injection, and doesn't have tightly coupled boost-control, and if you are running a moderate to high boost turbo setup. Even then, factory ECU's are fine for supercharging and low-boost turbo setups since they behave closely enough to a linear VE picture.
- If your factory ECU doesn't use a wideband, an aftermarket can respond much faster to mixture issues. However we're in an age where more and more factory ECU's are wideband. And as above, for most moderate level builds, the factory setup is still far more than adequate for protection... unless you're doing stupid crap to the car and 'not telling' the ECU about it.
- Same as above for EGT (i.e. some factory cars have that now but if yours doesn't... yes its a good control parameter to have...)

But the facts are:
1. Most of the time a factory ECU has far MORE logic-detection of incorrect running conditions and hardware failure than standalones, which tend to have much simpler hardware and logic. This is a sweeping generalization but many standalones in the marketplace seem to be far more basic in terms of sensor and actuator failure detection. Can your standalone detect a range of incorrect operation on coils, injectors, MAF sensors, IAT sensors, etc. etc? More than just 'disconnected'? Because virtually all modern OEM's can do that on all their input and output devices. Few standalones have the diagnostic detection level of the factory, as far as I know.
2. Bottom line, far MORE people in the real world blow up their cars on STANDALONES than on stock ECU's purely because now they have the power to tweak stuff they shouldn't and get in over their heads. Let me say that more plainly: standalones let people do stupid stuff really easily and LOTS of guys blow up their motors on standalones because it made it easy for them to be dumb and keep pushing the limits.

I know a guy who's blown up his motor 3 times since he went standalone because he can't resist tweaking his knock/ignition/fuel tables a little more / little more / little more until he breaks it. He is pretty representative of a common scenario out there.

Ask any really good veteran tuner how many owner-blown-up (or 'rookie-tuner blown up') standalone cars they've seen. Usually its a lot.

To be clear:

I am NOT mounting a campaign to always use stock ECU's here, probably for most people if they are really going to get serious about radically changing the hardware on an engine, a standalone makes sense because of usability even more than pure feature sets. Yes if you can't change stuff in the stock ECU then indeed it is dangerous to keep changing hardware and keep using that ECU. Yes, if the conditions are "I need to change parameters I can't get to in the stock ECU because I want to change critical hardware", absolutely a standalone makes sense.

But "All OEM ECU's suck and can't be used to tune a F/I motor" is patently false, and
ESPECIALLY false is "Standalones are always inherently safer than OEM ECU's"...

[tptrsn]

I definitely agree with what GearGrinderBro is saying here. As a matter of fact, I tuned a couple of drift cars for some super good guys over the weekend, and I was SOOOO happy that MS3 has AFR safety parameters available in the tune!

Guys basically just want to make more power, which is 100% understandable. What if their tune isn't finished yet, or what if they don't have enough fuel system capacity to pump enough E85 to support the airflow killer turbo they just installed? They are still going to let 'er RIP! Lol

I can't even estimate the number of times AFR Safety has saved my engines, and now the engines of guys who had me help them with their tunes. How fitting that I was the guy who asked for AFR Safety to be written into the MS3 code... It's almost like I knew that I am not trustworthy, and neither are most guys I like to hang around.

[dovlet]

Sorry my friend. This is outrageously incorrect.

There is nothing remotely inherently better/safer with a standalone than a stock ECU. Its all what parameters are put into it.

The stock ECU has all the same mixture and misfire/knock protection function that a standalone does.

ME7.2 absolutely has knock sensing with multiple sensors on the block.

You blew up your car because you have incredibly bad gas, and because you haphazardly threw hardware changes at the car without you having the ability to tune stock parameters to it.

That in no way is the fault of the stock ECU.

What blows up engines is:
- Incorrect parameters in the calibration/tune (too lean, too much advance, knock-thresholds raised way too high)
- Incorrect inputs to the ECU ('faking' or interfering with sensor inputs)
- Modifying hardware without adjusting ECU to match (pulleys on a blower, wastegate/BPV changes on a turbo, MAF sensor in a bigger tube, MAF resistor, different injectors, different cams, etc.)

The couple of features that ARE significant for a standalone over factory?
- If your factory ECU isn't designed for forced-injection, and doesn't have tightly coupled boost-control, and if you are running a moderate to high boost turbo setup. Even then, factory ECU's are fine for supercharging and low-boost turbo setups since they behave closely enough to a linear VE picture.
- If your factory ECU doesn't use a wideband, an aftermarket can respond much faster to mixture issues. However we're in an age where more and more factory ECU's are wideband. And as above, for most moderate level builds, the factory setup is still far more than adequate for protection... unless you're doing stupid crap to the car and 'not telling' the ECU about it.
- Same as above for EGT (i.e. some factory cars have that now but if yours doesn't... yes its a good control parameter to have...)

But the facts are:
1. Most of the time a factory ECU has far MORE logic-detection of incorrect running conditions and hardware failure than standalones, which tend to have much simpler hardware and logic. This is a sweeping generalization but many standalones in the marketplace seem to be far more basic in terms of sensor and actuator failure detection. Can your standalone detect a range of incorrect operation on coils, injectors, MAF sensors, IAT sensors, etc. etc? More than just 'disconnected'? Because virtually all modern OEM's can do that on all their input and output devices. Few standalones have the diagnostic detection level of the factory, as far as I know.
2. Bottom line, far MORE people in the real world blow up their cars on STANDALONES than on stock ECU's purely because now they have the power to tweak stuff they shouldn't and get in over their heads. Let me say that more plainly: standalones let people do stupid stuff really easily and LOTS of guys blow up their motors on standalones because it made it easy for them to be dumb and keep pushing the limits.

I know a guy who's blown up his motor 3 times since he went standalone because he can't resist tweaking his knock/ignition/fuel tables a little more / little more / little more until he breaks it. He is pretty representative of a common scenario out there.

Ask any really good veteran tuner how many owner-blown-up (or 'rookie-tuner blown up') standalone cars they've seen. Usually its a lot.

To be clear:

I am NOT mounting a campaign to always use stock ECU's here, probably for most people if they are really going to get serious about radically changing the hardware on an engine, a standalone makes sense because of usability even more than pure feature sets. Yes if you can't change stuff in the stock ECU then indeed it is dangerous to keep changing hardware and keep using that ECU. Yes, if the conditions are "I need to change parameters I can't get to in the stock ECU because I want to change critical hardware", absolutely a standalone makes sense.

But "All OEM ECU's suck and can't be used to tune a F/I motor" is patently false, and
ESPECIALLY false is "Standalones are always inherently safer than OEM ECU's"...

Bro, thanks for your time to explain me things above, for this kind of things I like this forum and people such you bro. I absolutely agree with all your notes above, but I said that stock ECU is not right ECU to use if you are doing forced induction. Reasons could be thousands such no adequate response for knocking, does not understand AFR, does not support EGT and etc. This is basic and applicable for Supercharged cars, for turbo cars even more.

Perhaps, person or engineers which created ME72 knows many good things about its properties, but they never shared it with us.

Simple example: let's assume, knocking started in 5500rpm and continued to 7000rpm. Engine blown. My question is, why my ECU does not stop knocking when it is just started at 5500rpm? Why is it not cut fuel as when knocking appear? If it is detect and react very well, I should not get engines burnt.

[tptrsn]

Bro, thanks for your time to explain me things above, for this kind of things I like this forum and people such you bro. I absolutely agree with all your notes above, but I said that stock ECU is not right ECU to use if you are doing forced induction. Reasons could be thousands such no adequate response for knocking, does not understand AFR, does not support EGT and etc. This is basic and applicable for Supercharged cars, for turbo cars even more.

Perhaps, person or engineers which created ME72 knows many good things about its properties, but they never shared it with us.

Simple example: let's assume, knocking started in 5500rpm and continued to 7000rpm. Engine blown. My question is, why my ECU does not stop knocking when it is just started at 5500rpm? Why is it not cut fuel as when knocking appear? If it is detect and react very well, I should not get engines burnt.

It is an extremely nice attribute of standalone ECUs that you can configure the parameters the way you want them, such as how it deals with knock as you mention. But to be honest, I never want to rely on knock control strategies from the ECU (just my personal preference), so I don't have much experience with the methods used by the different standalones. Which ECU are you planning to use, and what does it allow you to have it do when the ECU senses knock?

I believe that with factory ECUs such as the ME7.2, when they are well enough understood for us to be able to tune them, we are limited to amount of spark advance pulled when knock is sensed, and the length of time after knock stops before the timing advance is added back in. It should usually be a sufficient strategy to keep the engine safe if you have tuned it well, but the trick is to know where all of the various tables are that may have hidden effects on actual spark advance outputted to the engine. And then if the ECU is protecting the engine in that way, it is creating horrendously high temperatures in the exhaust system...

But that goes back to why I say I don't really want the ECU keeping my engine from knocking. I just want to keep my engine from knocking in the first place. For you that means water injection, or water/vodka injection. You don't really have another good choice.