80lb injectors and e85

[crazyyardie]

So I currently have a 80lb injectors to run a race gas n methanol tune but I’m thinking to change over e85 instead. I already have a walbro 450 e85 pump n 80 lb injectors. What about the stock fuel hose will I need to change those ?? If so what would be recommended. How much is the most power I can flow on 80lb injectors on s52 9:0.1. 86.5 bore. Gtw6465 turbo. Spa t3 manifold


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[someguy2800]

600 whp or so

[rajicase]

Speaking from experience and pushing those poor little 80s to their limit, if you wanna trust a trap speed-hp calculator, I am between 650-675whp (136mph trap). And I have cranked the base pressure up to 61psi to achieve this. I am running a combination of stock size hose and 6an line and a single walbro 485. I am literally at their limit; I am seeing AFRs at 12.5-12.8 in boost at 23ish psi. If I turn it up one more psi it sees 13.5-13.8 in boost. They are done. So if you wanna live life on the edge like me, you can make OK power with them. I am about to upgrade though, getting tired of making pussy-power XD.

[Butters Stoch]

What's the safe zone for E85 ? I'd be a scared to see those #'s with 93

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[rajicase]

What's the safe zone for E85 ? I'd be a scared to see those #'s with 93

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My toonah says he wants 12.5 in boost. I'm definitely on the edge but I've seen mid 13s a few times experimenting and it's not a good feeling but I'd say e85 has saved my ass a few times cause I'm sure on pump my motor would have shit itself at 23# and afrs in the 13s.

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[someguy2800]

I went down the track last year at 32 lbs in the mid-high 13's the whole way due to fuel pressure dropping. Plugs look great, wouldn't recommend it as a strategy.

[Kevin325i]

What's the safe zone for E85 ? I'd be a scared to see those #'s with 93

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Really you're injecting so much mass of fuel at that point you're getting intake temps under control so combustion temps don't run out of control and knock. You still have to worry about exhaust residual for knock though. Numbers in the high 12s seem to work fine for lots of people ~.88

Since ethanol carries oxygen with it you can really make more and more power until you slow the flame speed down with so much fuel. That doesn't happen until ~.68 lambda or so which is 10 on a gasoline afr scaled meter. But really that's a lot of fuel flow to deliver and you'll make just as much power with a little more air flow from the turbo and higher target lambda.

[crazyyardie]

Speaking from experience and pushing those poor little 80s to their limit, if you wanna trust a trap speed-hp calculator, I am between 650-675whp (136mph trap). And I have cranked the base pressure up to 61psi to achieve this. I am running a combination of stock size hose and 6an line and a single walbro 485. I am literally at their limit; I am seeing AFRs at 12.5-12.8 in boost at 23ish psi. If I turn it up one more psi it sees 13.5-13.8 in boost. They are done. So if you wanna live life on the edge like me, you can make OK power with them. I am about to upgrade though, getting tired of making pussy-power XD.

Ur tuned by Zack @22rpd right


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[rajicase]

Ur tuned by Zack @22rpd right


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Yes that's right

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[crazyyardie]

Yes that's right

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Did you change ur stock rubber lines ?


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[rajicase]

Did you change ur stock rubber lines ?


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I replaced them with new rubber lines, but stock size.

[exvitermini2]

Anything under 11.5 or so begins to heavily impact power (negatively) in the evo world.

Really you're injecting so much mass of fuel at that point you're getting intake temps under control so combustion temps don't run out of control and knock. You still have to worry about exhaust residual for knock though. Numbers in the high 12s seem to work fine for lots of people ~.88

Since ethanol carries oxygen with it you can really make more and more power until you slow the flame speed down with so much fuel. That doesn't happen until ~.68 lambda or so which is 10 on a gasoline afr scaled meter. But really that's a lot of fuel flow to deliver and you'll make just as much power with a little more air flow from the turbo and higher target lambda.

[dburt86]

I saw no difference in trap speed going from 11.80's to 11.20s, so i left it at 11.20s


Keep in mind, your single o2 sensor is just an average reading of 6 (4 for each sensor in my case) cylinders, and motors never run consistent cylinder to cylinder.

Meaning you probably have a few rich cylinders and a few lean cylinders.

[Kevin325i]

Anything under 11.5 or so begins to heavily impact power (negatively) in the evo world.

That seems more than reasonable for what I've seen in the performance aftermarket world. Thanks for giving me another data point that's interesting.

I'm speaking from a mass fraction burn rate perspective with oem automotive combustion tools. Usually you're taking significant tear up of ignition and injection timing and also moving cams.

Cylinder to cylinder variations are a huge factor as well. You might be targeting heavily rich values and keep picking up power because a couple cylinders are leaner than lambda 1. The evos might have really good cylinder to cylinder distribution.

[vollosso]

I like this thread.

0.82-0.85 is what i like on ethanol for most cars. I have gone as lean as 0.88 and as rich as 0.79.

Low boost, low compression, can cough below 0.79 on spool..

On my car I target 0.85 on spool and 0.82 up top. But im running above 2.5bar boost..



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[Robocop]

hey guys i don't mean to butt in but i had a similair question.
with the injectors alittle 600hp is ok but would that be outside the rang of a wal 255?

[vollosso]

hey guys i don't mean to butt in but i had a similair question.
with the injectors alittle 600hp is ok but would that be outside the rang of a wal 255?

Yeah youd be best stepping to a 450. Or maybe a bap.


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[Kevin325i]

I like this thread.

0.82-0.85 is what i like on ethanol for most cars. I have gone as lean as 0.88 and as rich as 0.79.

Low boost, low compression, can cough below 0.79 on spool..

On my car I target 0.85 on spool and 0.82 up top. But im running above 2.5bar boost..



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Yeah those are very close to target numbers in my car. But I'm also out of injector and pump at the 55 psi base pressure.

I also don't have the tools at home I have during the day at work.

[someguy2800]

My car picks up a couple mph trap speed going from mid 11's to low 12's. I usually try to keep it in the high 11's above 20lbs or so. I go a little leaner below that, low to mid 12's. I feel this is a good compromise of not giving up to much power but having some safety margin.

[tptrsn]

This thread is pure gold.

Since AFRs and timing are intertwined to some degree, where do you guys like to see the timing mark on the strap when you're running these mixtures?

[vollosso]

My car picks up a couple mph trap speed going from mid 11's to low 12's. I usually try to keep it in the high 11's above 20lbs or so. I go a little leaner below that, low to mid 12's. I feel this is a good compromise of not giving up to much power but having some safety margin.

Yuuuuup


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[vollosso]

This thread is pure gold.

Since AFRs and timing are intertwined to some degree, where do you guys like to see the timing mark on the strap when you're running these mixtures?

Hah i think this is too dangerous to really answer. So many things come into play.. factory ecu tune vs a standalone and if everything is really done correctly ie if load is correct in a factory ecu or if the stand alone is set up right.. boost/compression is a factor.. but possibly the biggest factor is back pressure...

Like i could say from peak torque 17 degrees and 22 degrees under peak power but it doesnt say all that much and these numbers may be weak or dangerous depending on the rest of the equation.

Got kinda off track but we can talk ign in depth if you want. id just want to know more about how your setup


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[someguy2800]

I'm not really that big on reading plugs and I never pull them unless i think there is something wrong. I use plugs more as a comparison to each other rather than trying to tune to make them look a certain way. I'm really just looking at the color of the porcelain to see if the tune in general looks okay, that the plug is not too hot or cold, I look at the condition of the straps to see that I'm not torching it, and I look for any signs of detonation or metal transfer. If one plug looks different in color or looks hotter than the others I know something is up with that cylinder. I've never tried to tune off the spark plugs. Even on 4 wheelers and snowmobiles and stuff I just tune off feel and sound and how the motor reacts to throttle changes.

[PEI330Ci]

I'm not really that big on reading plugs and I never pull them unless i think there is something wrong. I use plugs more as a comparison to each other rather than trying to tune to make them look a certain way. I'm really just looking at the color of the porcelain to see if the tune in general looks okay, that the plug is not too hot or cold, I look at the condition of the straps to see that I'm not torching it, and I look for any signs of detonation or metal transfer. If one plug looks different in color or looks hotter than the others I know something is up with that cylinder. I've never tried to tune off the spark plugs. Even on 4 wheelers and snowmobiles and stuff I just tune off feel and sound and how the motor reacts to throttle changes.

I check my plugs regularly, and it's not that easy for me because I've got stacks of stuff built in the way. Every time I find that it's worth the effort.

I've found damaged plugs that correlated with engine failure. I was only able to find this by taking the engine apart. Useful info.

I've also been tuning my cylinder trims, for both fuel and timing, by looking at the porcelain and the ground strap. I got to a point where I had all 6 cylinders showing pretty close to the same on both fuel and timing, and when I look at my EGTs.....they were really tight. Prior to the tuning of the trims, there was a fair amount of deviation with the EGTs. To be clear, my goal in tuning the trims wasn't to get the EGTs close to each other....it was just something I found after the fact....

I'm now looking at using "coil near plugs" (Racegrade IGN1A coils) for the ignition....partly because I think I have a slight misfire issue at higher RPM....and partly because I want to make checking plugs a lot easier.

[someguy2800]

I've started collecting IGN1's as well