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Thread: Misfire #8

  1. #1
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    Misfire #8

    Yesterday as I was driving up the mountain coming home got stuck behind some traffic. As I got a chance I went from about 1/2 pedal down on the uphill to about 3/4 pedal down and the old girl responded well. Had a small smirk as I wizzed by the rice burners. A couple moments later the engine started shuddering and the CEL flashed, then steady, obvious power loss. Limped the car home for the next 30 minutes barely able to drive 60 mph on the big uphills.

    It obviously felt like it was misfiring.

    Pulled codes p0300, 00301, 0308 and INPA confirmed it was misfires on 1 and 8 with fuel cutoff.

    Let the car sit the night. Today swapped coils and plugs to see if codes would move. The #1 went away completely, but #8 has been steady.

    1. Swapped coil, still #8
    2. Swapped plug, still #8
    3. Replaced fuel injector, no SEL code, but its misfiring and its #8.
    4. Checked electrical wiring to the injector, looks good physically, checked with meter and getting 16 Amps and 7 volts of power. Whether its plugged in or not, the engine runs the same.
    5. Checked with stethoscope and all injectors are tapping, except the new #8, no hard tap, but it is a different design than the others.

    Whatever happened, it was a sudden failure. Thought about pulling the intake manifold, but if the intake gaskets failed (about 30k miles old only), why would #1 also code? Wondering if timing slipped and the cam moved a few degrees, but again, why would #1 also code, its on a different bank and both cams would have to slip at the same time. It does not sound like any other cyl is firing badly, when engine is revved up it seems to be smooth, except for the slight growl due to the misfire.

    Any other ideas?

    EDIT: On some previous occasions, the car would occasionally start rough, like it was misfiring, and then a after a few minutes would smooth out fine. It feels the same now but not smoothing out. I considered it was a bad coil or injector that fixed itself when warmed up, Never got a CEL. I did get a sporadic Lambda code a few months ago, but did not replicate, and the car passed CA smog less than a month ago in flying colors, so not considering the cats.

    EDIT 2: Also want to mention I occasionally get a ticking noise when accelerating moderately or more when cold. Tick is still there when warm but reduced. I think its an exhaust leak since it can be heard much better when next to a curb and the noise is reflected back from under the car.

    EDIT 3: Also checked the 5 fuses in the Ebox that control injectors, all good.
    Last edited by kouks; 11-17-2017 at 07:01 PM.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  2. #2
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    Car computer might be cutting off the fuel injector.

    You might have a loose and or a bad spark plug. I once had a loose spark plug which might have broke or melted the electrode off the plug which also may have caused to damage the coil.

    Check the spark plug.

  3. #3
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    Pretty sure he swapped out the plug though.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamos View Post
    Pretty sure he swapped out the plug though.
    Yep.

    Going in plan...in order

    1. Inspect all plugs to see if another cylinder is causing the issue (before or after 8 fires) Firing order for M62 is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2, so I'll check 4 and 6 too.
    2. Swap new injector from 8 to another cylinder, see if it stays or follows.
    3. Pull Intake manifold and inspect/replace intake gaskets, inspect intake valves from top.
    4. Pull Valve Covers and inspect timing with timing tools.

    If none of these items fix it, I'm stumped.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  5. #5
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    Yeah my only thought would be leaking of one sort or another causing the wrong mixture to ignite. Carbon build up on intake/exhaust valve stuck open/closed? Blow by in the piston from a piston ring but then you'd see a fouled spark plug so that can't be it.

    I mean, it has spark, fuel, it should work unless the mixture is wrong afaik. Mixture would be wrong from a bad seal. That's the extent of my knowledge, good luck! What a PITA to open it up though.

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  6. #6
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    I assume you did this but you didn’t mention clearing the codes between steps. Would hate to not mention the obvious so what the heck I threw it out there.

    Other thoughts: compression check? Check wires to coil and injector?

    I have had similar symptoms you describe (occasional rough idle when cold, acceleration tick, flashing CEL when passing). I’ve taken to carpooling with the OBD reader. I have different codes though.

    Good luck figuring it all out.
    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

  7. #7
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    Since you've checked all ignition/fuel sources, a compression check of #8 would verify internals are not damaged, valve sealing, etc. Usually with a poorly seating valve you would here a thumping from the intake or a popping
    from the exhaust, but your ears would have picked that up.

    Another possibility is a wiped cam lobe, not fully opening the valves on that cylinder. Not a common fault with the M62, though.

  8. #8
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    Classic failing catalytic converter behaviour in my opinion!:

    http://www.meeknet.co.uk/e31/E31_840...l_Throttle.htm
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timm View Post
    Classic failing catalytic converter behaviour in my opinion!:

    http://www.meeknet.co.uk/e31/E31_840...l_Throttle.htm
    But only #8, and consistently that cylinder? I have benefitted greatly from your experience in the past, and expect to be enlightened again.
    These are quite contrary beasts to exorcise.
    Cheers!

  10. #10
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    Definitely clear codes in between tests if you haven't. I expect the DME is cutting the injector of #8 due to the misfires. No coolant wicking up the wiring from the thermostat to the DME, right?
    '98 740il | 9/97 build | schwarz 2 | sandbeige | 5AT | 270k
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  11. #11
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    are slow
    I'd put bets on cats actually, they can isolate themselves on one or a couple cylinders.

  12. #12
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    How could they do that? Pressure build up or something? I suppose if it's the furthest away cylinder that it would have the most back pressure? Hmmmmmm

    Cut the cats out anyway, much sound, much wow!

    || 1995 740i || M60B40 || DUDMD || ̶o̶r̶i̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶b̶l̶u̶e̶ Mercedes Brilliant Blue Metallic || Style 168 Wheels 1" Spacers ||



  13. #13
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    Yes, cleared codes between tests and used INPA to confirm it was 8.

    Compression test is due. I’ll also pull the pre cat O2 sensors and see if the engines runs smooth. If the cats were going bad it would have not passed smog as well I’m thinking, but understand Timm’s point. If it is the cats, now when my wife asks what to get me for Christmas, I’ll tell her...let’s see how that goes.

    On on the road this weekend so won’t be able to update until Tues or Wed. Thanks for the input gents!
    Last edited by kouks; 11-19-2017 at 10:30 AM.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by racer2086 View Post
    Definitely clear codes in between tests if you haven't. I expect the DME is cutting the injector of #8 due to the misfires. No coolant wicking up the wiring from the thermostat to the DME, right?
    Thanks for the thermostat comment, didn’t think of that

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  15. #15
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    If the cats are the problem, which ones other than genuine BMW work the best? Remember reading something about codes cause by certain brands, also need them to be Cali compliant.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  16. #16
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    The Magnaflows many used were not CA compliant as I recall. I think Sig found some for a good price that worked well. Might check with him.

  17. #17
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    Another CAT vote.

    A long story behind this, but I have an appt. tomorrow at a muff shop to replace the LH cat with a 50-state piece. $355 installed The Man said. He said it was not a 'make it fit' piece, but an aftermarket CAT that will fit just fine. He's done BMWs before and is familiar with 'em.

    ..he said. Last time I heard THAT ('Yeah, I've done lots of those!') at a windshield shop I ended up with inches of water inside the car. I'm hoping this time the guy actually DOES know what he's doing.

    Flashing SES, misfire on #8 (or pick another number or two on the same bank), fuel trim codes, unknown misfire... Yep.

    Whether my replacement works...or not...I'll put it on this thread.

    Some muff shops can do a flow/pressure test to check CATs. That's on tap tomorrow, too. I can hear the thing rattle though, so I know it's not in fine fettle.

    **edit**
    If you get that problem again, pull off the road, shut off the car. The DME will 'restart' the cylinder that it shut off. No need to 'limp' home. Besides, that 'limping' may well do further damage.
    Last edited by canyncarvr; 11-20-2017 at 11:50 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by canyncarvr View Post
    Another CAT vote.

    A long story behind this, but I have an appt. tomorrow at a muff shop to replace the LH cat with a 50-state piece. $355 installed The Man said. He said it was not a 'make it fit' piece, but an aftermarket CAT that will fit just fine. He's done BMWs before and is familiar with 'em.

    ..he said. Last time I heard THAT ('Yeah, I've done lots of those!') at a windshield shop I ended up with inches of water inside the car. I'm hoping this time the guy actually DOES know what he's doing.

    Flashing SES, misfire on #8 (or pick another number or two on the same bank), fuel trim codes, unknown misfire... Yep.

    Whether my replacement works...or not...I'll put it on this thread.

    Some muff shops can do a flow/pressure test to check CATs. That's on tap tomorrow, too. I can hear the thing rattle though, so I know it's not in fine fettle.

    **edit**
    If you get that problem again, pull off the road, shut off the car. The DME will 'restart' the cylinder that it shut off. No need to 'limp' home. Besides, that 'limping' may well do further damage.
    Your early '98 with the M62 has a different cat setup than the M62TU on Kouks car. Not sure if there are aftermarket cats for the M62TU. Of course I am assuming you have the M62.

    Edit: well, found this, passenger side: https://www.autopartswarehouse.com/s.../BEN1491P.html
    Last edited by clarkitect; 11-21-2017 at 12:18 PM.
    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by clarkitect View Post
    Your early '98 with the M62 has a different cat setup than the M62TU on Kouks car. Not sure if there are aftermarket cats for the M62TU. Of course I am assuming you have the M62.

    Edit: well, found this, passenger side: https://www.autopartswarehouse.com/s.../BEN1491P.html
    Kouks do they do a sniff test in cali? Whats the last 7 of your VIN? I have good cats from my 98 but it was never a cali car. I'd like to check the difference in part numbers. Attached pics from my 98 cats. They were both replaced in 2000 by the dealer...

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    Last edited by purplecty; 11-21-2017 at 04:05 PM.

  20. #20
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    Well. its not the cats....

    Car sat for a few days, started it, no codes but obvious misfire going on. Hooked up to INPA and all cylinders were showing close to 0 smoothness, except 8, which was off the charts.

    Installed a light tester on the 8 injector lead, and it was lighting off with each rpm, so power going to the injector.

    Next I did a compression check. Pulled all the plugs and inspected, non of them, including 8, looked fowled, except 8 was fairly wet and smelled like fuel. All measured 155-180, with the average being 165. 1 and 2 were at 180, don't know how they were that high, I think they should be around 160.

    HOWEVER...8 was 0 psi, not even a slight movement in the needle, NADA. Pulled the intake manifold and the intake vlaves seemed to look good visually and when I turned the engine they moved in unison and seemed to seal fine.

    Other than the obvious misfire...

    1. No steam out the tailpipe
    2. Oil is about 1/2 quart low, but I don't have an accurate measurement from before the event.
    3. Coolant is a couple cups low and I checked it a week before the event and it was fine. Has been steady for a long time.
    4. Oil looks like oil, no coolant mixed in as far as I can tell, but a complete drain of the oil will tell for sure.

    SO...the only thing I can think of is exhaust valve failure (cant see them), cylinder wall failure, or localized head gasket failure. Don't think its HG failure since I can't see any fluids leaking on the engine, and no smoke or steam coming out the back end. If I drain the oil and see coolant, its a part out, get your list of wanted items ready. I will pull the head and see whats going on, if its just valves, it will be fixed, assuming no coolant in the oil.

    I'm cruising the car websites for a new ride, most likely not an e38, maybe something newer. Like watching a good friend die, its a sad day.
    Last edited by kouks; 11-21-2017 at 08:06 PM.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouks View Post
    Well. its not the cats....

    Car sat for a few days, started it, no codes but obvious misfire going on. Hooked up to INPA and all cylinders were showing close to 0 smoothness, except 8, which was off the charts.

    Installed a light tester on the 8 injector lead, and it was lighting off with each rpm, so power going to the injector.

    Next I did a compression check. Pulled all the plugs and inspected, non of them, including 8, looked fowled, except 8 was fairly wet and smelled like fuel. All measured 155-180, with the average being 165. 1 and 2 were at 180, don't know how they were that high, I think they should be around 160.

    HOWEVER...8 was 0 psi, not even a slight movement in the needle, NADA. Pulled the intake manifold and the intake vlaves seemed to look good visually and when I turned the engine they moved in unison and seemed to seal fine.

    Other than the obvious misfire...

    1. No steam out the tailpipe
    2. Oil is about 1/2 quart low, but I don't have an accurate measurement from before the event.
    3. Coolant is a couple cups low and I checked it a week before the event and it was fine. Has been steady for a long time.
    4. Oil looks like oil, no coolant mixed in as far as I can tell, but a complete drain of the oil will tell for sure.

    SO...the only thing I can think of is exhaust valve failure (cant see them), cylinder wall failure, or localized head gasket failure. Don't think its HG failure since I can't see any fluids leaking on the engine, and no smoke or steam coming out the back end. If I drain the oil and see coolant, its a part out, get your list of wanted items ready. I will pull the head and see whats going on, if its just valves, it will be fixed, assuming no coolant in the oil.

    I'm cruising the car websites for a new ride, most likely not an e38, maybe something newer. Like watching a good friend die, its a sad day.
    Good luck hope you keep her around or get another well sorted one with mess miles...

    Sent from my SM-N910T3 using Tapatalk

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouks View Post
    Well. its not the cats....

    I'm cruising the car websites for a new ride, most likely not an e38, maybe something newer. Like watching a good friend die, its a sad day.
    Sorry to hear this, but it seems inevitable for all of us at some point. Hopefully, you can put one last calendar together to memorialize your run with E38.
    I have been trying to find the right spot to recreate a "One Last Great Ride" pic.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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  23. #23
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    I have heard of exhaust valve issues being a thing, hope it's just that and you can get her fixed.
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  24. #24
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    Pull the head off and see if there is a busted valve. Most likely that. Easy fix and back on the road in a couple of weeks.

  25. #25
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    Kouks, sad to hear. What a bummer.

    To everyone: how does an exhaust valve just go bad like that?
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