Oil pump drive gear bearings?

[actletpone]

Is this noise normal? (moving intermediate shaft back and forth by hand)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDVsaNcsv2Y

Can the roller bearings for the oil pump drive gear be replaced by just removing the cap by the alternator and not removing the sump?
Do you have to remove the intermediate shaft?

[82eye]

could be wrong but that just sounds like the play between the gear mesh from the intermediate shaft to oil pump.

this is what the shaft looks like behind the gear courtesy of ecs tuning




i think the part you are wondering about is the needle bearing sleeve in the oil pump shaft gear drive

this guy



the oil pump drive gear floats in there and would fall into the pan if removed

here they are together



this is not to be confused with the intermediate shaft bearing which is internal to the block

i can't fathom the needle bearing sleeve going bad but i guess it can happen

[actletpone]

Thanks! I understand there are two needle bearing sleeves one in the cap and one in the block so was wondering if the one in the block can be changed by just removing the cap pictured above.

The reason I am asking is because of this noise..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFB7AYctRVI

I am in the process of new waterpump + tensioner, so trying to think what else it could be before I put it back together

[82eye]

there are no internal needle bearings. the oil pump shaft is driven off that gear. it drives a gear internal to the pump itself. one end in the gear pictured, the other in the pump.




the only other bearing in play is the bushing type intermediate shaft bearing which should not get touched unless one knows what they are doing and requires a level of knowledge to replace properly.

found a shot with it all together

[82eye]

suspect the noise in the second video is something else under hood like a pulley belt tensioner or other pulley. otherwise i'd be worrying about the oil pump itself. the only way to check for sure is pull the pan and inspect the pump and gears directly.

[82eye]

this has to be what you are thinking of





it's the same bearing sleeve as in the bearing cap. i'm sure it is the same part number. i was fixated on stuff you could get at externally and kept referring back to the cap. that sleeve is really only touchable on an engine out tear down or with the pan removed from the bottom. not entirely sure you can really get at it with just the pan removed.

and for the record you are correct - there are two needle bearing sleeves sandwiching the oil pump drive gear


iirc a long reach 10mm socket will punch that out nicely if it needs done. i know for sure we used a small metric socket.

[95BMWIC]

Great pics 82eye! Are you building an M20 motor (or built an M20 motor)?

I heard the intermediate shaft and bearings had to be pressed in.. will look for the source on that.

[actletpone]

Yes, thanks heaps 82eye your responses and pics were very helpful! I will put it back together and hope the noise turns out to be w/pump pr tensioner. I have had the oil pump out before and didn't notice anything.

[82eye]

Great pics 82eye! Are you building an M20 motor (or built an M20 motor)?

I heard the intermediate shaft and bearings had to be pressed in.. will look for the source on that.

none of those pics are mine. haven't signed up for another image service since p-bucket went awful. i have built bmw and other engines and am in the middle of an m20 build.

those needle bearings have nothing to do with the intermediate shaft. they are for the oil pump drive gear. the intermediate shaft bearings are bushing type full round bearings that circle the intermediate shaft in the top pic.

the gear you see in this pic is at the end of the intermediate shaft and drives the oil pump gear.



there are two intermediate shaft bearings, one is at the edge or external to the block, the other is internal.

can see them here



removal is not recommended if it can be avoided because of the the difficulty and level of skill required to install them. bmw removed the part numbers from their catalogs on purpose due to engine failures related to improperly installed intermediate shaft bearings. they can be had if you ask however and you can get the part numbers.

the part numbers are :
11111280863 outer
11111264196 inner




here is a pic of the inner from turner

305734_x800.jpg

the inner bearing is readily available at turner, pelican, fcp etc. i suspect it has other applications in bmw.
the outer is either nla or listed back order and is like finding hen's teeth. the local dealer parts guy said he could get them when i last gave him the part number, but i didn't order and am not confident he can actually supply. the outer is also about 4 times the cost of the inner here if you can even get a quote. if you do approach bmw, they are supposedly obligated to provide the parts if you can supply the part numbers, provided they are available in their parts network.


pro-tip : searching the outer number at turner does result in returning a part. it does not list it as an e30 part but does identify as an m20 part tho so call them direct.


the bearings themselves must be sized with your intermediate shaft and block by your builder. the bearing surfaces need machining to the tolerances needed for your specific block and shaft. it is not an easy process and your builder needs to be aware of this. most have neither the skill nor inclination to do this as the tolerances are in the thousandth of an inch. my builder can handle this, but also recommends leaving them be unless otherwise worn or damaged.

***hot tanking or using a caustic to clean the block during a rebuild will destroy these bearings***

so be careful and make sure the shop you choose is aware.

one final tip, yoshi and peerless over at e30tech have dealt with this. forcedfirebird on this forum and others is also well-versed on this issue and i believe is a professional builder. they will have better knowledge and might be able to help if you reach out or search their threads. replacing these bearings can only be done by a proper builder, requires special tools, and is beyond the skill level of diy home mechanics.

hope this helps anyone searching this issue and clears up some of the info i messed up in this thread.

[Drewster]

Hey folks, I've been searching around for advice on these bearings. I'm about to send a block in for machining, but I haven't found the best way to remove/ reinstall these aside from "pound it out with a socket and hope for the best".

This last poster from 2007's paradox of "you can't remove it easily and hot-tanking will ruin them" is obviously useless. Does anyone have advice on how to remove these things to prep the block for a machine shop?

[ForcedFirebird]

What advice do you need? The bearings come out very easy, doubt your machinist would even charge to remove them. A wood dowel and hammer, even. They are much like Chevy cam bearings, except they have to be sized after installation. I finally made a tool kit to make installing them a snap. Used to use a bearing kit washer and punch, taking time to square them...

https://www.r3vlimited.com/board/for...cs#post9922258

- - - Updated - - -

Also the inner bearings are not NLA. Just sometimes they need to come from Germany, but there's been stock in the US for a while.