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Thread: Interior headlining resembles Arabian tent

  1. #1
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    Interior headlining resembles Arabian tent

    The glue adhering my headlining trim material has decided now is the time to let go and create an Arabian tent look inside my car. Anyone got any advice/guides for the presumably collosal job I've got ahead of me removing the entire inside of my car to get the headlining piece out for regluing?

  2. #2
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    It is not the glue, it is the foam between headliner material and board, that disintegrates. Glue is no problem at all. How to: see my website and how to remove the headliner also on Johans site. Have meanwhile done more than 10 headliners with friends, the last one was last year on my M3 with black material.
    No need to get the entire interior out, relax, done in one day. You get the headliner out thru the rear door, also no need to get the passenger front seat out, just move the seat and back of the seat as needed.
    Most time consuming is the cleaning of the board.
    As one of the pioneers I did it about 15 years ago. The local BMW dealer told me that the front and rear window has to come out, they had never done it before. After we have done it, I drove the car to the BMW shop and the Meister called all his staff and showed it to them.
    Get some headliner material with 3mm foam backing, in case it is thicker, more difficult in the curves and especially when you have a sunroof. Also special flame proof Best material is stretchable a bit, easier to make the more difficult areas when the handles are etc.

    I still have on a role about 20 meters of grey headliner material I imported some years ago, when I ordered some 50 meter roles and shipped the pieces to many BMW users here in Japan, as there is no local supply. Here is the color of the headliner material when we did it on a 750iL Highline http://infinitier.ddo.jp/e32/page/ma...inte_50812.htm
    Probably the pleasure boat shops in OZ have such material. Shop around there. Pretty expensive to ship and it cannot be squeezed in a small box.
    If you want to to the headliner, sunroof, A,B,C pillar, get 4 meters, that is enough. In case headliner only w/o sunroof, 2 meters is enough.
    Be prepared that some of the clips of A,B,C pillars will break. Some possibilities, use a soldering iron and some plastic to repair it, re-shape the clip with fiberglass and epoxy as we have done some
    http://produkte.bilder-speicher.de/0.../cpillar1.html
    http://produkte.bilder-speicher.de/0.../cpillar2.html
    also some with Two Component Epoxy Adhesives
    Last edited by shogun; 10-22-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Get some headliner material with 3mm foam backing, in case it is thicker, more difficult in the curves and especially when you have a sunroof. Also special flame proof Best material is stretchable a bit, easier to make the more difficult areas when the handles are etc.
    Haha! You make it sound so easy. Just "get some headliner material". Surely this needs to be in the PERGAMENT LEDER (0440) interior colour of my car to match all the other fixtures and fittings, otherwise I'm going to be up for recolouring everything in order to avoid a horrible clash. It's safe to assume genuine stuff is made of unobtainium from BMW now, so what are the real options? Is it possible to reuse the existing material with a new layer of foam glued to it, or is that not realistic?

    I'm not at all experienced in upholstery repairs, so I'm thinking towards doing all the remove, clean & install work and giving the recovering to a professional trimmer to do for me.

  4. #4
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    see my website how dirty that old stuff is, you would have to wash it and iron it and then glue the old material again to new foam.
    Try the online shops for headliner material and ebay and ask for samples of material, I doubt you will find 100% exact match, but buy the best fitting one.
    Ask headliner Express, they import material from Germany https://www.headlinerexpress.com/
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  5. #5
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    Took the car to a local trimmer today who was able to very closely match the fabric colour with a swatch of foam backed cloth. He can also replicate the stitch lines in the sliding sunroof panel piece. Thinks the colour match will be so close it won't be necessary to recover any of the pillar trims or parcel shelf. So the plan is for me to remove the card from the car and get him to collect it in his van (I don't think I have a car big enough to carry it when it's not installed) for recovering, then I will reinstall it again.

    Unfortunately, upon starting the car to leave the trimmers, I immediately got 'TRANS CONTROL' come up on the dash info console, followed by OWNER'S HANDBOOK which only says, take it straight to your BMW dealer. Fortunately I was not far away so I did just that with the transmission in limp home mode stuck in 3rd gear. Scan of the DME port says no signal from the TPS to the transmission. Further investigations required...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Ask headliner Express, they import material from Germany https://www.headlinerexpress.com/
    Many months later and my local trimmer has given up trying to source the correct colour headlining material from his suppliers in Australia. It's basically a lost cause. Australia is pretty much sh!t when it comes to sourcing anything. So that being the case, I've have taken on the job of sourcing the material myself now starting here at Headliner Express. Not having much luck so far. Direct e-mail to e-mail address on website, online message form submitted + phone call to mobile (left message about unanswered e-mails) have all received no reaction at all.

    Is this Bill of Headliner Express still operating? Does anyone know please? How does one poke or prod him enough to get him to respond? Are there any other sources for headlining material to suit a car with Parchment interior colour?

  7. #7
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    I contacted quite few suppliers in the US, and none had the right material for me. Thickness is one issue. Most of the stuff in the States is 1/4 inch thick and that's is too much. Second issue is the color. I could not find the right shade of gray. I'm going to do the headliner and the pillars, so the color of the old headliner becomes irrelevant. I'm trying to match against the sun visors. Another issue is the quality of the material. Many vendors will sell you SurColor and SunBrite. Both of them have a thin fabric and you can see some greenish glittering of the foam through the fabric. The structure of the material is another topic. Our cars have something called velours, but there are also flat knit materials. Most modern cars have the latter. Fake suede is another option if originality is not your major concern. Shipping gets interesting too. I would not want to buy the stuff folded. Shipping a roll would be better but more expensive.

    Here are some links from vendors in the States:
    http://www.stockinterior.com
    http://www.yourautotrim.com/auothead.html
    http://www.headlinerexpress.com
    http://www.gahh.com (they have a good material in a light gray (titanium 4006) and sand (4007))
    http://www.rexpeggfabrics.com
    http://www.miamicorp.com
    http://threeriverssupply.com/Headliner_c_525.html
    http://www.derbyfabrics.com/automotive/headline/
    http://www.meadedistributing.com/cat...eadliner-4.htm
    http://larrydennis.com/automotive/he...rs/default.asp
    http://www.upholsterysupplyonline.co...es/Headliners/
    http://www.jrveteran.com/Surcolor.html
    https://www.bowenfoamfabric.com
    http://www.jjautofabrics.com
    http://www.albrightssupply.com
    http://wlsheadliners.com
    http://www.globalupholstery.com
    https://www.headliner4cars.com

    Here are some vendors in Germany:
    http://www.fortispolster.de
    http://www.mah.de (That's where Shogun bought his material. When I visited them two years ago they didn't have any velours, just modern materials.)
    http://www.autostoff.de (That's where I bought mine, hand-carried it back to Canada, but that's another story. It's not installed yet, so I can't show you pictures. But since you have a different color it doesn't matter that much.)

    Here's another thread about this topic: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-and-Suppliers

  8. #8
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    Thank you very much for that quality response with so much good and useful information!
    I contacted all three of the German companies and got quick responses from all of them, so that was encouraging. One was simply "we don't ship to Australia", another was we have "we have no way of matching your car's material to something we stock". The third was "send us a photo", so not a complete bust.

    I also contacted GAHH since they seem to come highly recommended and their website is very good. Waiting for them to get back to me now too.

    Thanks again.

  9. #9
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    Of the US suppliers, I went through all of them, but the only ones I felt good enough about to contact were GAHH + WLS. They seem the most likely to know what they're talking about judged purely on their websites of course. WLS seem to think I'll need a colour called 1771 tan to match my parchment interior and to be fair, holding my sunroof panel up to the computer screen image of the sample, it's doesn't look a million miles away either.
    Can anyone who's done a Parchment BMW interior headliner replacement please confirm the colour match to 1771 is a good one?

  10. #10
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    Sending them a photo or matching against pictures on your monitor won't work unless you have color calibrated equipment from end to end (camera, monitor, printer). I just went through the web pages of the vendors, picked half a dozen colors that seemed to be right and asked for samples. I did that with nine of the US suppliers, one in Canada and three in Germany. Some asked for 50 cents or so per sample, but I had no problem with that.

    If you don't mind holes in your Arabian tent, you could send them a sample of your existing headliner. I cut out a small piece above the sun visor. Covered that with duct tape, but that didn't stay on that crumbly mess on the headliner board. However, the sun visor completely covers the hole so it doesn't bother me.

    autostoff.de was one of two companies that I sent a sample. The other one was the sole Canadian supplier:
    http://autorestorationsupply.com/

    When I was looking for samples I put the shipping question aside. I wanted to locate the best material first and then figure out shipping. If companies refuse to send to Australia, you can always ask some friends...

  11. #11
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    I'm going with WLS using a colour called 2081 medium neutral which they say is "the closest color to the 1771 in the 1/8 inch headliner". They have this guide here where they replaced a Parchment interior E34 525i with their 1771 tan material which they describe as being "very, very close to the original pergament color". I'm not sure why I can't have 1771 tan, but perhaps it's not available in 1/8" thick foam backing or alternatively perhaps that colour is flat out NLA now, but the 2081 medium neutral is available in 1/8" foam backing and it's supposed to be a very close colour match, so gonna give it a try. Now, how much do I need to order?

    Shogun says 4m to do everything, or 2m for just the headliner panel alone with no sunroof. I have a sunroof that will need recovering too, but I don't intend to do the pillars or parcel shelf as they're still perfectly serviceable. In that case, would 3 yards of 64 inch wide be enough?

  12. #12
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    you can measure it. iL headliner is roughly about 160cm long with the small pieces you glue on the backside. Then measure the headliner, for that you need an extra piece. My rough guess is 3 yards = 274,32cm is enough for hesadliner + sunroof and maybe even some material left over for pillars if you cut wisely.
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  13. #13
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    I've finally received the 3yrd x 64" roll of 1/8" thick 2081 medium neutral material to redo my headlining with. Has arrived a a bit dented and creased around the edges, but hopefully all of this will be concealed behind the card when installed. Anyway, as I won't be doing the gluing/installation, I'll leave that problem up to the experts to handle for me. I'm sure they have means of fixing small dents and creases in delivered material so it isn't noticeable. The material is quite stretchy anyway, so I'd imagine pulling it a bit taut will be more than enough to smooth it out. At least they delivered it rolled, not folded, so they did their best. This was from http://wlsheadliners.com

    Now on to the hard bit for me. Disassembling the entire inside of the car to get the headlining card out! I'm off to Shogun's site to start printing off the 14 pages of instructions.

  14. #14
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    as you have a sunroof, here many pics from >10 years ago, when we did the 750iL Highline from one of my wrenching buddies, shows you how to get the section off , and shogun in action cleaning the board ;-)
    http://infinitier.ddo.jp/e32/page/ma...inte_50812.htm
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  15. #15
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    Yeah, the Japanese text does my head in a bit to be honest, but I've printed out and read through your other guide without sunroof on your website instead. That's the one I'll follow I think. I'm most interested in how to get the pieces off without breaking the clips and plastic bits and pieces. I'm less concerned at this point with how to stick the new stuff on because I'll be giving that task over to someone with experience who is more likely to know how to do it without making a great big hash of it. I can't risk making a mistake with that part as getting another roll of the material is out of the question being so far away from the source.

  16. #16
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    Language does not matter, the pics are important.
    Taking out all the panels w/o breaking any clip is next to impossible, be prepared for it. I repaired several clips, several possibilities, as shown on my website in that headliner thread with a soldering iron, most solid is with a fibre glass / epoxy kit
    this is how we repaired the C-pillar clips
    http://www.bilder-speicher.de/image_...07120208151023
    http://www.bilder-speicher.de/image_...07120208582802

    more here on headliner removal http://bmwe32.masscom.net/johan/head...headliner.html
    and here from E34, similar procedure http://wlsheadliners.com/1991-bmw-52...ion-guide.html

    also check here if there are some instructions how to remove the A,B,C covers https://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/
    Last edited by shogun; 04-10-2018 at 04:34 AM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Language does not matter, the pics are important.
    Taking out all the panels w/o breaking any clip is next to impossible, be prepared for it.
    True enough, however I've completed steps 1-12 from your guide on your website this afternoon and not done too badly. The C-pillars came out unscathed by following very closely your guide. I do not have any little plastic hook clips to repair. I think the tip of one of the bayonette clip plastic tongues broke off when I removed the RHS (driver's side for me) C-pillar though. It seems a bit shorter than the other side one but I'll need to wait to view it in good sunlight to be sure of what's happened. It was very stiff and difficult to get to release.

    Didn't lose the metal female bayonette clips into the B-pillar when removing the upper sections, so that was good. I did however snap two of the plastic plugs in the base of the lower section cover of the B-pillar. These are not repairable either, so I'm going to have to try and find a couple of these from somewhere. They're part number 51438139374

    Did manage to pull the electrical contactor completely out of one of the sunvisor clips disconnecting it from the spade bit wiring connector, but this didn't break anything and I could simply push it back in and all is good again.

    I have to say though, your guide made this a LOT quicker and easier than it would have been if I was discovering all this for myself as I went along, and I don't doubt for a minute that I would have snapped a lot more than I eventually did! One of the grab handles fell off even though I was doing everything suggested to make it stay put on the white plastic pins. Don't know what went wrong there, but it came off and there was nothing I could do about it. The other three stayed put as intended. I'll have to investigate that when I get to pulling the actual headliner tomorrow afternoon after a job interview in the morning.

  18. #18
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    Got the board out, cracked in two places at the edge where the holes are for the grab handles, but not unrecoverable. Did the whole vacuum the old foam off which seems to have worked OK, but everything that's left behind is still very sticky. I've got a full day to figure out how to clean this and make it not sticky before it has to go to the trimmer for gluing the new material on. So far I've tried vinegar, methylated spirits + white spirits. None have worked. In fact, it seems that adding any kind of liquid at all just turns the residue back into glue again and makes the board it even stickier.

    Edit: Taking a break from the fun. "Fun" strictly in the Norwegian sense of the word! Cleaning this glue off the old board has to be the worst job you can possibly do on a car! I read every forum I could find where people were asking for recommendations on solvents to remove contact cement. The overwhelming consensus was that nothing works apart from pure mechanical abrasion. The only liquid solvents that will strip contact cement are so toxic and so aggressive, they will not only kill you as you use them, but also completely dissolve the cardboard headliner board, or alternatively pollute & contaminate it to a point that nothing will stick to it ever again rendering it completely useless for re-use.

    The only thing I can find that will scrape the glue off in anything even approaching a reasonable amount of time is a rotary wire brush in a battery drill. Even so, this is seriously looking like taking all day and possibly all night as well.
    Last edited by Legoman; 04-12-2018 at 01:16 AM.

  19. #19
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    Three full days now prepping this headlining board for recovering. Let me just say for the benefit of anyone considering this repair, reconsider. Seriously, sell the car before you have to do this job. Nothing is worth this much pain and suffering. Just sell the car and buy a Honda instead! None of the online guides for removing the glue get even remotely close to reflecting just how hard and how much work in involved. Firstly, forget any idea you can use any kind of solvent to dissolve the glue to any degree whatsoever. Complete lie. I tried White spirits; methylated spirits; Kerosene; Acetone; Toluene; Unleaded Petrol; Terpentine; Gunwash Paint Thinners; Goop-Off + 3M Adhesive Remover. Nothing works. The very best you can hope for came with Acetone which did soften the glue just enough to turn it back into glue again and create the biggest mess you've ever seen in your life.

    So with solvents being a complete waste of time and money, the only alternative and the only thing that actually works is mechanical abrasion. Sand paper is pointless because it clogs in the first 2 seconds of touching the glue, so stay away from that. I used wire wheel brushes in a battery drill. These clog instantly too, but they are so harsh and so aggressive that they will still strip the glue off even when 90% clogged.

    Unfortunately it's impossible to remove the glue without also taking the upper skin surface of the headliner board with it. The headliner board is actually two beige coloured thin cardboard skins sandwiching a thick layer of white glass fibre matting in between. When you remove all the old glue with the cardboard to which it's attached, you're now down to the white glass fibre matting. It has taken me three days to get to this point so far with wire wheels, 80 grit sand paper and manual wood chisels to gouge off the glue.

    Even so, it's still impossible to completely remove all the glue because the areas around the edges and around the sunroof opening are heavily reinforced with metal mounting strips attached via steel rivets and you can't use a chisel around all the steel rivets. At least not if you want to complete the job before you die so you can actually get to drive the car again.

    I don't know if my car is special or something, but my glue looks nothing like the glue in any of the online guides I've seen. My glue is green in colour. Dark, drab, military camouflage green. Every photo I've seen of the glue indicates it's either some version of red/yellow in colour. Mine most definitely is not. Were it not for the metal bracings embedded in the headlining board for the sunroof hole, I would have given up completely on stripping this one back for reuse. I would have given it to a fibreglasser and had a new copy made out of fibreglass instead and thrown the original piece away. That would have been way quicker & easier.
    Last edited by Legoman; 04-14-2018 at 05:35 AM.

  20. #20
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    Never have seen a green glue, and never had so much problems like you had. I assume someone already was working on it before and used the wrong glue.
    I remember we once had such a case 10 years before on an E32, that was black glue, actually someone had tried to fix the falling headliner with a terrible kind of stuff like Butyl Rubber Glue , when we tried to pull the headliner material off, other material came off too, we had to scrap that board and get another used one.
    Over the years of E32 production - from my experience of doing more than 10 headliners- there were changes in headliner board material, my old E32 from 11/88 has some kind of glued wood chips with epoxy mixed or something, others seem to be made of fibre glass/epoxy.
    Glue used on the old boards: sometimes it is super dry and easy to remove with a steel brush, less often it is this slimy red/yellow (aged) glue-foam mixture. That slimy stuff is more difficult to remove. We also used and tried many kinds of solvents etc and best work then like you also found out rotary wire wheels with a drill.
    You did it, enjoy the new headliner soon, for the next 20 years you do not have to touch it again ;-)
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  21. #21
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    Years ago I ordered complete interior from GAHH. You said you were checking with them. They were great. They purchase from BMW, factory over runs. I did both front seats and arm rests. Also did bottom rear seat, perfect match to back of rear seat and complete headliner including all pillars. They sent me four yards of headliner material. It was factory material and exact match. I gave all to a professional to do the work and in two days everything was new. This is what the material looks like when you get it. Natural color is my color and the gray here is the foam backing that has fallen apart on your car. Just for you to see.






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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by CroughtonE32 View Post
    Years ago I ordered complete interior from GAHH. You said you were checking with them.
    I did indeed. Here is the complete unedited response I got from them.

    "Hi Dean, We don't offer this material .
    Sales Norma Lopez"

    In the end the only helpful response I got was from WLS Headliners, so that's what I bought. To be honest, whilst your headlining does indeed look fantastic, it doesn't look like a perfect match to the original colour due to the sunvisors & grab handles being significantly darker. My sunvisors + grab handles were an exact match colour-wise to the headliner material (but obviously won't be anymore). Not that this contrast looks bad or anything. In fact, it might even be preferrable to highlight those moving pieces. I'm sure my car is going to end up looking the same way because viewed on the delivered roll at least, my material looks noticably lighter than the old stuff I've just peeled off and I'm not recovering the A/B/C pillars or the parcel shelf either, so if there's a big difference, it's going to be even more noticable.

    Today I've got my trimmer coming around to inspect what I've done so far to prep the board for him to glue to. This is to decide whether it needs to go to a fibreglass shop first to have a layer of resin layed over the exposed glass fibre mat of the board to seal it to glue to, or whether he reckons the new contact cement will stick long term direct to the glass fibre matting.
    Last edited by Legoman; 04-14-2018 at 09:06 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    Never have seen a green glue, and never had so much problems like you had. I assume someone already was working on it before and used the wrong glue.
    It's definitely not been done before. This is factory OE fitment.

    I remember we once had such a case 10 years before on an E32, that was black glue, actually someone had tried to fix the falling headliner with a terrible kind of stuff like Butyl Rubber Glue
    I had a big lump of black silastic too come off with the board but on the upper side between the headliner and the metal roof when I removed it. Looks like a assembly line robot squirts a big lump of black silastic to seal a drilled hole near the sunroof that cables pass through instead of using a proper rubber grommet. The ooze that results is just left to collect between the roof and the headlining board (which has already been installed at that point obviously)

    my experience of doing more than 10 headliners
    Wow you really like punishing yourself! I would rather slash my throat with the chisel I used to gouge the glue off than do another board!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legoman View Post
    I did indeed. Here is the complete unedited response I got from them.

    "Hi Dean, We don't offer this material .
    Sales Norma Lopez"

    In the end the only helpful response I got was from WLS Headliners, so that's what I bought. To be honest, whilst your headlining does indeed look fantastic, it doesn't look like a perfect match to the original colour due to the sunvisors & grab handles being significantly darker. My sunvisors + grab handles were an exact match colour-wise to the headliner material (but obviously won't be anymore). Not that this contrast looks bad or anything. In fact, it might even be preferrable to highlight those moving pieces. I'm sure my car is going to end up looking the same way because viewed on the delivered roll at least, my material looks noticably lighter than the old stuff I've just peeled off and I'm not recovering the A/B/C pillars or the parcel shelf either, so if there's a big difference, it's going to be even more noticable.

    Today I've got my trimmer coming around to inspect what I've done so far to prep the board for him to glue to. This is to decide whether it needs to go to a fibreglass shop first to have a layer of resin layed over the exposed glass fibre mat of the board to seal it to glue to, or whether he reckons the new contact cement will stick long term direct to the glass fibre matting.

    Actually I've owned the car for 28 years now. Drove it off the showroom floor in Feb of 1990. You're seeing the photo the way an IPhone flash picked it up. The color headliner they sent me as you can see with the leftover scrap on the floor matches my sun visors exactly. I would have never installed it if it were not perfect as my E32 is Perfect. When held up to what we tore down (original) you'd never tell the difference in color. Just trying to help you a bit. Good luck with your interior. Post a few pics when you're done.
    1990 735I (Auto) E32 Feb 1990 to Present
    1996 Z3 Roadster (5 Speed) E36/7 Jan 1999 to Dec 1999
    1983 733I (5 Speed) E23 April 1983 to Feb 1990
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d4tHoHGaJo
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Av20xCMMocSsyEpl...h_oOk?e=ekIcAT







  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    306
    My Cars
    '92 740iL + '85 M635CSi
    Quote Originally Posted by CroughtonE32 View Post
    Just trying to help you a bit. Good luck with your interior. Post a few pics when you're done.
    I appreciate the help. I need all I can get with this job frankly. Mine will not end up looking anywhere near as good as yours. My material colour will not match for a start. The best I can hope for is that it will be close enough that I can live with it. I'm not initially going to bother getting the pillars recovered in the hope that the new material will be close enough a colour match to not look so out of sorts that it does my head in. If it does do my head in, then I now know how to remove the pillar covers and it's a fairly easy thing to do, so I am comfortable with going back and removing them again to be recovered with the same material again as used this time, but I'm hoping that won't be necessary.

    I bought the material I have now on pure blind faith that WLS weren't lying to me when they said 2081 medium neutral is a very close match to the 1771 tan material they used in this guide which was a Parchment coloured interior E34 525i. Mine is also Parchment. They say the 1771 is an almost identical colour to the OE fabric BMW used and you can see from their colour chart that what I bought 2081 is noticeably lighter but I thought it more important to keep the 1/8" foam backing thickness rather than go up to the 3/16" thickness the 1771 is only available in.

    Unfortunately living in Australia, we are extremely limited on available options. There are no stockists of this kind of material in Australia and no professional importers of it either without a confirmed order (so basically just a shop doing exactly the same as what anyone else can do with a computer, an internet connection + an eBay account). We also have no manufacturers (of anything) because we're a completely talentless, innovation-free, import-only country with a tax system that actively discourages any form of entrepreneurial endeavour. With only one company even willing to post me material (and even then only after I begged and pleaded for help), I basically had to go with their best recommendation and advice and blindly hope for the best!

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