Turbo help needed

**bikedoctor** · 10-18-2017, 10:16 AM

Let me start off by saying Hi, just entered the world of FI Bmw's and lets just say its a dream come true.

Back story, found well sorted TRM stage 2 OBDII m3 for sale. I bought it and wouldn't you know it broke down 4 exits down from PO's house. Towed it home. I did not have time/knowledge to diagnosis it so I towed it to a local(nameless) speed shop. They took great care of my car(fuel pump) and recommended at ICV which I took care of and it made the car perfect. I could not have been happier with the service I received.

I purchased the car from a county that does not have emissions and I was aware that this was going to be a hurdle. The car would not set readiness and kept throwing a fuel mix code. The idle was also searching/surging especially on cold starts so I know I was probably going to be faced with needing it tuned. I even bought O2 stims just to make sure that was not it.

One big factor I did not like was the fact that the PO uncirculated the wastegate to an open dump which was obnoxious to the point I never drove the car to the wastegate spring pressure. It was too much. I called my speed shop and they recommended a motorcycle muffler on the wategate due to not trying to loose power. I expressed I have never herd a moto and was like " I want my car to sound like that" I really leaned toward having them recirculate the wategate back to the exhaust. They warned of a power loss of unknown numbers due to back pressure. This car put up almost 500whp with the PO, it would spin 3rd. I was more then ok with some power loss.

I dropped it off for the exhaust/wastegate work and a tune to correct the emissions and backpressure I was adding.

Fast forward to picking it up, the gentleman I have been speaking with the majority of the time said everything went great, took my money and as I was walking out the tuner walked in. He joked " I have never taken some ones money to loose power" we all had a laugh. But he was serious "you car is unhappy now, we lost almost 100hp. The back pressure from the 3inch exhaust was causing my power curve to look terrible and this added stress will shorten your engine life span." I was speechless, he showed me the dyno graph and it was just jagged cliffs over and over. I had the worst feeling in my gut, since I just paid for my dream car to get turned into a volatile tuned mess. I asked what about my emissions? Will it set readiness? The tuner looked at his associate that I have been working with "What about your emissions?" They did not communicate that my car would not set readiness. The tuner assured me the tune should set readiness, and unless something else is wrong I was good to go. That feeling in my gut was to the point I felt like a family member died. I inquired about how to fix this mess, they recommended to uncirculate the wastegate or bump up to 3.5 inch turbo back $$$$ plus a re-tune. I left.

I was an emotional wreck, I work as a BMW service advisor and have never been on the other side of the desk feeling as if I was taken advantage of. I drove the car to work the next day and still no readiness. I called the tuner and his idea was to bring another DME to him so he can move my tune to another DME that has not had multiple shops in it possibly corrupting the emissions coding. This is my plan, but I can not find a DME local and ebay scares me with DME's running close to $200. I have called the speed shop back and left messages about helping me source a DME since knowing the theme of this is I would buy a bad or wrong box. No call back.

My questions in my head, I understand what customer request means. But is this my problem due to its what I requested? I would probably have pulled the trigger on a new exhaust if they called me after the dyno session and said "this went terrible, we should put a 3.5 inch on it" but it seems as if they just wanted to prove a point to me. Since the car still wont set readiness, this is why I originally brought it in would you seek a refund? Would you bring your business back? Should my car make 100hp less due to a 3 inch exhaust. Should I slap down the $$$$ for a 3.5 inch?

I fully respect this shop and want to keep them nameless, this is a rare occurrence and I do feel they will make it right. I just have no one else to bounce these questions off. All the techs I work with keep telling me a 3inch should flow 500hp.

**tyr283** · 10-18-2017, 10:23 AM

This sounds like BS to me. 3 inch might cause some power loss but it's been proven to work up till 7-800whp on big single supras. And it's not like you put on a smaller exhaust, you just had the wastegate plumbed into the exhaust right? I'm not sure if I believe a 100whp loss there unless the exhaust has some seriously restrictive mufflers on it or they made a really restrictive wastegate pipe (which would give boost creep that you would notice)

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**328iFun** · 10-18-2017, 10:39 AM

I run a 2.5" down pipe and so do others here with no problems.

Man, that's a lot of talk about back pressure. Which is usually just a bad side effect of a turbo and always exists.

Think about it, instead of the exhaust gases being released right into a empty hollow pipe they are being used to spin a turbine and at low speeds there's not enough velocity for the gas to exit the exhaust or turbo housing freely (which is why you we lose torque at low RPMS), this is normal.

Of course a larger down pipe would help but you also want to make sure that the entire exhaust is unrestricted and as straight as possible so it can flow freely.

**bikedoctor** · 10-18-2017, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by tyr283

This sounds like BS to me. 3 inch might cause some power loss but it's been proven to work up till 7-800whp on big single supras. And it's not like you put on a smaller exhaust, you just had the wastegate plumbed into the exhaust right? I'm not sure if I believe a 100whp loss there unless the exhaust has some seriously restrictive mufflers on it or they made a really restrictive wastegate pipe (which would give boost creep that you would notice)

So now comes the question, would you bring your car back? This car still has a stock bottom end, and my thoughts are not to push more then 450-500whp before we start to create even bigger problems. Would you spend the $$$$ for that 80-90whp after already spending $$$$..? How would you approach this?

**tyr283** · 10-18-2017, 10:52 AM

Get some pictures of the exhaust setup and post them in here for us to see. Honestly, I think more likely than not it's a tune issue and you need to have someone who knows what they are doing tune the car. There's no shortage of great FI E36 tuners that will happily remote tune your car for you

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**pbonsalb** · 10-18-2017, 10:54 AM

Use a shop that does the job right. 500 rwhp is a great place to be.

**Mklock** · 10-18-2017, 04:35 PM

Until you want 600

**someguy2800** · 10-18-2017, 05:28 PM

When your at the mercy of other people doing work for you sometimes your better off letting them do what they recommend. At least that way if it doesn't work as expected its on them and there ego is invested into making it work. If the car really got that upset with a recirculated wastegate I would have them change it back to un-recirculated and put a muffler on the wastegate pipe as they suggested. I would have them write on the estimate that they are to make the car pass emissions so you can hold them to that promise.

Oh and an inline 6 dumping through a motorcycle muffler is still going to sound like an inline 6. Its just a metal can full of baffling, it doesn't decide how the engine is going to sound.

**TheJuggernaut** · 10-18-2017, 06:23 PM

Sounds to me like you got bad tuna, not bad backpressure.

**pbonsalb** · 10-18-2017, 09:45 PM

Peopke have recirculated into 3 inch exhausts without issue at the 500 rwhp level. Find a shop that can do the job not screw up and charge you for its lack of experience. Drive 500 miles or more to the shop if necessary.

**DunDunSkeert** · 10-19-2017, 01:41 AM

Hi Dave,
I didn't know you bought a turbo e36. Looks like I'll have to check your facebook and get caught up.
Assuming your boost levels are the same you can expect a 15-30 hp loss by going recirculated at your power level. The exhaust diameter is not the issue, 3in is plenty big enough. We have build a few 600+whp subarus at the shop using off the shelf 3in turbo backs. If you could send some pics of your exhaust that would be helpful. It sound like the issue is with you tune/tuners.

**bikedoctor** · 10-19-2017, 08:40 AM

Aaron? I will get the car up in the air tomorrow, the exhaust looks efficient to me(just resonator, muffler, and clean bends). I understand this is what I requested and the shop did not recommend it, but if it went so poorly why no courtesy call and try to make this right? I will also try and get my dyno graph. Any chance anyone has an OBDII DME from a 6 cylinder manual so I can get my emissions sorted?

**Quicker10u** · 10-19-2017, 11:21 AM

Should you get a refund? No...They did the work. Did recirculating the exhaust cause a 100HP loss....Um, no...There is something else going on there. You are in Atlanta and I can think of 3 BMW specific shops off the top of my head that can help you...It's like Mecca for knowledge. You need to analyze the entire car if your Dyno Graph has peaks on it...Ignition, Fuel, everything...

**vr6dubny** · 10-19-2017, 12:30 PM

I have been having issues with my tune as well, so I can kind of relate. However, you are a service advisor at BMW, utilize your techs. Your car is still a bmw after all. Before I brought the car back to the shop I would have 1 of my trusted techs do a smoke/boost leak test on the car. I would just make sure hardware is all good before spending more time/money with the "speed shop" you are using.

Secondly, without naming names, is the tuner you are using at a "speed shop" or a "bmw speed shop". If your tuner is not tuning bmws on a regular basis I would utilize 1 of the shops that specialize in bmw's that are near you. I thought of 2 off the top of my head. If you are already utilizing 1 of the 2 I can think of, then try the other one.

Thirdly, if you requested a retune to conquer the issue of emissions the shop certainly did not do what they were asked to do. I would politely request that they retune the car with the agreement that you must pass emissions. I would also ask if they kept your original tune because it certainly sounds better than what you are running currently.

something just doesn't seem right about what is going on with the shop you are using.

also are you running 93? or 93 with meth? or E85? I assume you have a head spacer and arp's?

**pbonsalb** · 10-19-2017, 02:42 PM

TRM, Technical, Markert, CES. I would have gone to CES in NC if I did not mind a drive for a NickG tune.

**bikedoctor** · 10-19-2017, 02:55 PM

I performed a boost leak test when I purchased it, and it passed. This thing is clean as a tick. Every master tech I work with is blown away with the build quality and cleanliness. The "speed shop" is Bmw specific, they specialize and are known for e36 and e46 chassis DME tunes. The car has cutring, studs, tuned for 93. I will post pictures of the exhaust and hopefully dyno graph tomorrow. Thanks everyone for your imput.

**Butters Stoch** · 10-19-2017, 04:16 PM

What exactly is failing emissions ? Is this an engine light thing ? Or is it smog testing ?

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**bikedoctor** · 10-19-2017, 04:58 PM

The vehicle will not set readiness, O2 heater and catalytic converter will not set. Tuner states that we need a new DME due to the prior tuner corrupting the emission coding.

**AJLM34A** · 10-19-2017, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by bikedoctor

Tuner states that we need a new DME due to the prior tuner corrupting the emission coding.

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/p...313628560.html

This guy parts out a lot of BMW's, and I have bought from him several times. He could have an DME;
https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/p...302416750.html

**DunDunSkeert** · 10-19-2017, 09:52 PM

How much have you driven it since the tune? From my experience it usually takes about 50 miles of mixed drive to set readiness.

**pbonsalb** · 10-19-2017, 10:58 PM

Don't mess around with your local shop that does not know FI E36. Find one that does. Plenty around in your area. Why waste money and time.

**bikedoctor** · 10-20-2017, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by DunDunSkeert

How much have you driven it since the tune? From my experience it usually takes about 50 miles of mixed drive to set readiness.

I have put multiple drive cycles on it with around 100 miles, keeps throwing a P1188 fuel mix code bank 1 sensor 1.

**Butters Stoch** · 10-20-2017, 10:22 AM

1188 means your at adaption limit. You need to check LTFT's. See where your at. Let's say your FPR vacuum line is off, causing high fuel pressure at idle/cruise. This will require the DME to pull fuel. The DME is only going to pull so much % before "enough is enough" and it gets pissed off, tosses an engine lamp. Changing a tuner won't cure this code. Do the simple diagnosis steps to make sure your hardware is proper before thinking the software is the problem.

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**bikedoctor** · 10-20-2017, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Butters Stoch

1188 means your at adaption limit. You need to check LTFT's. See where your at. Let's say your FPR vacuum line is off, causing high fuel pressure at idle/cruise. This will require the DME to pull fuel. The DME is only going to pull so much % before "enough is enough" and it gets pissed off, tosses an engine lamp. Changing a tuner won't cure this code. Do the simple diagnosis steps to make sure your hardware is proper before thinking the software is the problem.

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Awesome! I will inspect the fuel trims. Thanks for the help.

**bikedoctor** · 11-07-2017, 08:16 PM

Quick update for those who want to follow my journey. I found a scan tool that will pull fuel trims. The car was pulling fuel -8.6 LTFT.

Sourced another DME, dropped car off last Monday with hopes to get it back this Monday. Spoke to the tuner about my findings and reading to much on the webs. He states that most likely I was driving the car in a very rich part of his map and after enough it was throwing the fault, not a hard part failure. He stated that the tune revision and the new un-corrupted DME would solve our issues. Great, a good feeling and I was off.

This Monday I called and LM. No return call, I live extremely close so I walked in. Found tuner/owner wrenching on his car and approached him. He updated me that they found faults for evap valve and replaced the primary O2. I was happy due to already planning on replacing the O2 just due to its unknown age. He states that his employee drove the car for an hour and no faults returned and 5 of the 8 monitors has set, but we are just so busy we cant just keep driving the car(as he was wrenching on his car) you should be good to put some more miles on it and you will be golden. He instructed me to cash out with his employee.

Hundreds of dollars later, the employee says "oh, wait let me show you something." We walk out to my car and he points out cracking/scratches on the rear bumper. I think someone rear ended me while we were test driving the car and the driver took off but I have his license plate number. To his honesty, the scratches very minor and well may have been there, I work at a dealer with body shops owning me favors all day. No biggie, plus the car is still not registered after 3 months so I don't want to open this can of worms. Its again just the way it was disclosed.

Not really trusting much at this point, I plug in my scanner in the parking lot. O2 heater fault instantly, and only 4 monitors set. I walk back in and politely ask why a fault is showing up. The employee brings out the bigger $$$$$ scanner and finds pending faults, 02 heater, misfires, etc. They come to the conclusion that these are left over from the new DME's previous car. We clear them and I go on my way. I drove the car to work today, out of boost, easy, nothing. On the way home, still out of boost, easy and P1188 fault appears, fuel mixture with a negative LTFT.

I have not contacted the shop yet, but my questions. Is my driving causing the mixtures fault? Did they actually spend time with my car or just smoke the whole visit? I'm almost 3k vested in this shop at this point, do I continue to give them the benefit of doubt? If you were a tuner, where do you go next? Was the tune half ass'd? Again I want to keep them nameless, everything I read on the forums is positive and my car was sitting next to a 30k e46 PROefi turbo build. I don't doubt there ability.