Looking for yours thoughts on M5 vs m60b44 540i.

[Kannackas]

Hi,

I have a 540i/6 that I bought with the intention to build an m60b44-hybrid. I was thinking about this before I bought it and I thought it would be easy but the more detailed my plans get the estimation of costs just won't stop growing. Suspension, interior, motor, 850csi steering box etc. will be more money than I would have to pay for an e34 m5 3.8L, perhaps even more than a M5T, when you include the price of the car. I don't know if there is a market at all for a frankenstein e34 like the one I'm planning and even if everything is done perfect I might get even less than an original 540i/6 when I want to move on.

I keep telling myself that the car I imagine would stomp all over an M5 with way more torque which would make it better as a fun road car, but then again, I might be fooling myself by digging my heels down instead of just buying an M5.

How many has built a hybrid in their e34 and how would you compare the performance and character of that car to an M5?

I'm sorry if you think the thread is strange but I think I need other e34-enthusiasts opinion. Somehow I think the heavy e34 really could be better matched with a v8, only that the m60 is too weak but that a v8 with same or a little better output as the s38 would be fantastic. I don't know anybody else who is in to e34's and I don't have opportunities to drive e34 M5's to form my own opinion but I know many of you do and have, so could you please tell me more about the M5 character and offer any insights on my specific plans for my car? I think that my car as it is, is way underpowered, but the M5 with the same number of torque might feel underpowered too.

Am I just fooling myself because I'm invested in my car emotionally/financially?

[RobZR]

If you like your 540i/6 and have it sorted, keep it!!. Slapping a supercharger on the M60 like the ESS/Vortec kit wil get you ~400hp, and it's easily reversible back to stock.
The M5T would be a nice play on a collectible E34, but a needy one will drain your wallet before your done sorting it.
Long term garage queen choose the M5T, a good driver stick with the 540i/6 and boost it.

my $.02

RobZR

[dangerwillrbnsn]

From an INDY BMW shop employee perspective:

Keep the sorted 540/6. I get the pleasure of driving MANY vehicles. While I quite enjoy driving a well sorted e34 M5, they are expensive to maintain (at least through a shop), and rare to find in good condition. There is not much in the way of "cheap mods" to extract more from them, IMO. You'll spend a fortune on restoration parts.

Personally, I daily my 86k 540/6 - and it shares a lot of the same driving characteristics of the M5, but with more torque down low where it counts. With just a 3.15LSD and a tune in mine, I have had the opportunity to verify that the 540/6 does indeed keep pace with the M5 from 0-90mph and the M5 will only slightly pull away at higher speeds. Where do we get to drive 100mph plus in the states?

If you're dying for more power, RobZR is right. Supercharge the 540 for 400bhp and pummel an M5.

[BleedsBlue]

It's not a strange thread, I think these discussions have been going on since like '93

I can't really argue with the two posters above.

Except you will never earn back what you put into the franken-E34, even in the Bring a Trailer era. That's not discouragement in itself, though. You should build what makes you happy.

With minor mods, any E34 M/540 race from most speeds will be close; while of course that matters, it's really not the point for someone like me (who currently owns both). The S38 is a more thrilling motor than any other BMW unit that I've driven, even those with far more torque, or a higher redline. If you don't feel the same, then I really see no advantage of the M over the 540--especially one with all of the goodies OP is describing.

For me even an S62 is limp after an S38, even as the former pulls cars-lengths. I just can't explain it I guess.

[KVF]

As someone who just dropped an M62B44 in an e34 (originally 530/5spd), I think that fairly simple swap is the best bang for the buck every day highly spirited driver you’re gonna get in an e34. As others have said, if you REALLY need pants on fire power use forced induction. Beyond that perform the appropriate suspension and brake mods and just enjoy it.

The M5 is for status and/or collectibility. If you feel that you just need to own that piece of history, by all means buy one and enjoy it. Yet if it’s just the performance you’re after it can be had for for less $$ without the potential worry of destroying a classic.


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[Kannackas]

Thank you for your insights. I can't deal with the idea of getting F/I, I just don't like it, so its a full on build if I'm keeping the car.

I have been thinking about this a lot and I don't think I'm off by much with 8-9k for just the motor work; refurbish the m62 block and the heads with performance parts such as springs and bigger cams and then all the gaskets and nuts/bolts, performance headers and a custom tune.. Might be upwards of 10k. Then its like 2k for 850csi box and 4k for all new suspension with shocks and control arms. Another 2k for new Amaretta interior and probably another grand for deleting the sunroof... And another grand for LSD.

That might be 20k in just mods, I paid 7k for the car so 27k worth of car that I might get 13-14k for if I find the perfect buyer and I have everything documented and been able to pass the yearly inspections without the inspection guys noticing. That means that I would pay 13-14k on my car that I won't get back, but god damn I think it would be so sweet that it might be worth it. It would be an awesome "sports car" with lots of cool factor and I think theres plenty of guys who have lost way more than 14k on enthusiasts cars. If I'm doing this I'll probably hold on to it for a while so maybe when I sell it I have forgotten the money I'd spent on it..

The thing is also that when I look at cars around that price point around 25-30k I just can't seem to find cars that would be hands down better than the car I'm planing to build. e39 M5 is just a little too heavy and perhaps a bit to tidy. e46 M3 is not as good a daily and too small. Same goes for the 996, its not what I'm looking for. Don't like audis/mercs if its not the newer ones in a different price point entirely. e90 M3 could be found for less than 30k but not close to the condition my fully rebuilt frankencar would be in. So thats why I'm trying to decide if my plans are worth it or if I should go with the e34 M5. 27k gets you a very nice and sorted M5. Well, I think I'll figure it out eventually haha..

[BleedsBlue]

The whole point of swapping in a B44 is that even mildly built, it's far cheaper than an S62. Shoot man, I would never dump near 10k into any M60 when the S62 exists.

[moroza]

You might gain some insight from this thread.

In a nutshell...
M6x for refinement, torque, and maintainability.
S38 for sound and feel.
Both for their power.
Neither for their economy.

[wagons ho]

M62 hybrid.
Because this20170523_122724.jpg

[Torston]

If I was in Sweden and was looking to lay down 20 k Euro on an e34 there would be only one answer to this question, and its not a 540i or M5.

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/d...rder=ASCENDING

Note 2 B10 Allrad with 86k km on the clock. Yes please. Give it two more months and about 20 cm. snow and that would be the fastest e34 in Sweden by a large margin.

[RobZR]

If your dead set against F I.
The only choice worth the time and effort is a LS7. 505hp from 7.0l of na power.
M62 is a great jump from M60B30 but not so much from the B40. To be worth the cost without F I.

Now if you want to stuff the COPO 427 version of LS7. That's a serious na monster.

RobZR

[Kannackas]

Nah, LS gets too frankensteiny..

I shift between thinking that what I want is pretty reasonable, and that I might be crazy. It would be 25-30k but then again it would be like brand new with very solid performance and it would be "mine". It has the one of the best gearboxes ever and it offers that priceless old school feedback that newer cars just don't give you. So considering that people spent 70-80k for the car in original spec in 95 you can't say that it wouldn't be worth close to 30k for the, in my eyes, perfect e34.

I think that the crazy part would be the performance parts, that's what makes the engine build get so pricey. Just match m62 block to my heads with tune should give 320bhp or something and could almost be for free if I do it myself but the extra 30-40bhp I want is what will cost upwards of 10k with the cams, pistons and springs etc. The bump from 280-320 and a big boost on torque would make a big difference in itself. But 320 to 350 would bump the car up in a different league performance wise.

The Alpina is beautiful but they are almost all autos. I had the opportunity to buy a 5-speed manual b10 3.5 for 12k but I chose the 540/6 instead earlier this year because the 3.5 motor would be way too tired IMO. That Alpina actually got stolen and found butchered in a forrest this summer. There's alot of m5/m5T that's gotten butchered or shipped off lately in Europe, seems to be professionals that target these cars now for the value in parts.

[Kannackas]

What? No, my car is in great shape.. There are no photos posted in this thread on the car. I don't need to restore it, I'm thinking of modding it. It's all original for now and its one of 73 540i/6 with M-tech fitted from factory for the European market.

As I wrote this thread and read your replies I started to realize more and more that no one has done a build like this because it would end up costing 10-15k more than to own an M5 instead when its all added up after the cars sold, because the M5 will return investment if not more even. Is the car I dream of 10-15k better than an 3.8 M5? I guess no unfortunately considering that I'm not a millionaire.. :/ I'm gonna drive it more when spring comes and really try to get my hands on an M5 for a few minutes to get a better feel for that car.

[nonturbodan]

The M60B44 is a great improvement over the B40. Tons more area under the curve, tons more torque. Barks to attention at the slightest application of throttle. The B40 feels like an inline six by comparison. My B40 was making 266rwhp too, which is right in the middle of B44 territory.

The S38 is a great engine but it will not make 4.4 liter torque without forced induction. My B44 puts down about 300 ft-lbs at the wheels. The B36 makes 266 at the crank, probably about 225 at the wheels. The extra ft-lbs really helps boot the car down the road, and it is very nice to roll into the throttle in sixth gear and have the car actually pull.

In terms of practicality, the S38 is a higher strung and higher maintenance motor. Requires valve adjustments and will burn valves if this has not been done in the past. The timing chain and rails can be problematic as well. Everything is more expensive and harder to find. M60 and M62 parts are plentiful and cheap. I got my 4.4 block for $300 delivered. Another few hundred bucks for gaskets, hoses, odds and ends and it was about a $500 build. Now I have a 540i that runs properly and doesn't leak a drop of oil. Its nice.

[Kannackas]

300wtq would be very nice, maybe even some more with some headwork and restored block. I like the idea of having a V8 with real thump in my old school sports sedan, but I want it to feel sort of original at least and able to pass inspections so b44-hybrid is appealing. It's just that when I start to plan for a build my scope creeps and I want to go all in.

I'll wait and see. Usually when I have my mind set I have too go through with it. :-D

What's the fuel economy on your build nonturbodan? Could one assume that the mpg would rise in the same percentage that the performance does? My car will always be my DD, even for winter use next year after I've been under the car for some rust prevention.

[nonturbodan]

Fuel economy seemed to drop a little in my case. Depends on how you set the cams up and what you run for a tune. I've tried M60B30 and M60B40 software. The B30 tune works better at part throttle and idles better but gives up about 10 hp on the top end of the curve. Starts falling behind around 4500 RPM.

Right now I'm running a custom tune based off of the B30 but with modified ignition and fuel maps. That saves the trouble of trying to get a 4.0 tune to run well at low RPM and part throttle where it feels lethargic. Fuel economy could be improved I'm sure with standalone injection and a good amount of tuning but I still get 17 MPG city and 22 highway as it is now. Good enough for me.

[Kannackas]

I was browsing around and decided to check out the market for the X5's. Apparently you can't give these away, especially the V8 ones. The 4.6L cars with 40-60k miles are advertised for 5-6k and they sit for a long time. The 4.6L looks almost the same as my 4.0L but it has 347bhp.. Maybe that could be something to think about. If I could get a low milage one for 4k or around there, take the motor and then sell the car in parts it should end up costing me 2k for the engine. 347bhp should be able to grow a little with some tweaks. Obviously there will be headaches involved with a swap like this but it CAN be done. If I can move over the wiring to my car and keep the engine stock it would be nice with VANOS to get awesome low/mid range.

This route would give me very much bhp for the money and .2L extra displacement. Also it would be even more unique and when I sell my car I could sell the engine separately and sell my car with a standard m60 that can be found for free or very little in Sweden if you look for it.

[nonturbodan]

My best dyno with the B44 was 280rwhp, which I think is leaving quite a bit on the table, but in any case its only 15rwhp short of what the 4.6 would be putting down if its making 347 at the crank. In that configuration it was making tons of low-mid and running out of steam on top, a lot like the VANOS V8.

The VANOS V8 has some problems that the M60 does not. The single row timing chain and guide rails are prone to failure causing serious engine damage. The VANOS units themselves tend to get beaten up by the unbalanced valve spring forces on the short V8 camshafts. They're good for about 100k before problems become increasingly likely.

[Mykk]

The B30 tune works better at part throttle and idles better but gives up about 10 hp on the top end of the curve. Starts falling behind around 4500 RPM.

Right now I'm running a custom tune based off of the B30 but with modified ignition and fuel maps.

The U.S. market 530i - B30 tuning use what I consider to be the Euro version of the code. The U.S. market 540i's have a completely different microcontroller coding in the first half of the tune. Euro market 540's have similar microcontroller coding as the U.S 530's. Comparing the "U.S" vs "Euro" coding in my own project I feel the Euro coding runs smoother and more responsive to throttle transients. These are just my own observations and not the general census of motronic tuners. The 530i tuning has a rather aggressive timing map in comparison to the 540i's, the Manual 540i has slightly more aggressive timing at lower loads then the Automatic versions.

My personal tunes for my own 540i/6 use the "Euro" microcontroller coding. Pretty soon I'm going to re-write the "Motronic 404 M3.3 tuning" thread I made a while ago using a different image hosting site since photobucket ruined all of my previous threads.

[nonturbodan]

Interesting. People have told me I was nuts when I said the 3.0 DME ran better than the 4.0. Its not subtle though. Same observations on the stock M60B40 and the M60B44.

[Kannackas]

About the quality of the b46 there are plenty of them with 180k+ miles being for sale with no indication of malfunctions in the ads, and with very so so history with limited services. I just thought that if I were to jump in on the engine build/swap then it could be an option. When the motor is out of the X5 I would also have the opportunity to put some time into freshening it up while I keep driving my e34 with the m60.

Again, this is all because the motor needs to pass as an m60 at glance when the inspection is due, and because of this I'm limited to m60b44 build or the new option of b46 and the b46 would get me the most bhp and if I could indeed get my hands on one for around 2k it seems like good value to me.

Edit: When I thought of the build the price went up and touched on 8-10k pretty easily and the b46 would be "bolt in" and the issues would be the electrics around it, right? So assuming the price would be 2k then this would make the most sense because it can't possibly cost another 6k to get that to work on my car!? And being stock and developed by Alpina I would know the end result. The build might be more sketchy because there would be much more custom stuff. And then the b46 engine would be able to get sold separately and my car could be sold with its original motor when/if I want to sell it and not affect its value.