Good to see Hartley in the STR
Great victory by the driving god. Ferrari fail on strategy, too bad for Max
Hell of a race, Verstappen was robbed.
"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes."
-DNC
Good race - happy to see 2 Ferraris on the podium, even if Raikkonen’s is somewhat controversial. The way I saw it, Max did have all 4 wheels off racing surface.
I don’t like Hamilton because I find him disingenuous in his interviews, etc., but there’s no debating his talent inside the car in my mind. We can all argue that he’s had great cars throughout his career, and I get that, but he is a damn fine driver. On the current grid, only Max, Alonso, and Vettel (not necessarily in that order) can compare.
Last edited by m3fuz; 10-22-2017 at 05:14 PM.
Judging by the replays I saw, while close I agree with the penalty
Awful. Just awful. The drivers just winced their way through it, and what the heck was Buxton doing accosting them as they came out of the tunnel? Talk about something taking you out of your pre-race routine and ruining your focus.
I agree that he had all 4 off, but the way the penalty was applied made it seem incredibly....targeted?...by the FIA. Still---I suppose Vettel will take some consolation that it's a bit of karma from Mexico last year.
Lovely bit of opportunistic passing by Vettel, even if it was on Bottas....who has completely disappeared from contention despite having identical machinery to the championship points leader.
Congrats to Merc for wrapping up the WCC for the 4th year in a row. They have a hell of an organization---one to rival Ferrari in the early 2000s.
Great drive by Sainz too. Really hoping either A) Renault is fighting for podiums next year or B) he gets promoted to a top team. He deserves it.
Current: '94 MX-6 V6/5 • '72 240Z • '10 Mazda5
Past: '02 330i/5 • '85 RX-7 GSL-SE • '95 540i/6 • '95 525i/5 • '86 635CSi/5 • '88 JZA70 • '86 4K quattro • '85 RX-7 S
Wish list: Type 44 • Manta • Pre-'85 CGT • 405 Mi16 • SVX • W123 Coupe
If the race was longer Max would have been told to give the position back because of illegal overtake. They couldn't do that hence the 5 seconds.
I was an illegal overtake - 4 wheels off the inside of a corner = cutting corner (ignoring track limits) to gain an advantage. He went 4 wheels off track and he gained an advantage.
I don't see the issue.
Watching so called F1 "fans" bellyaching all over social media about Max being rightfully served a penalty for a very obvious rule violation is pretty hilarious.
That's not to say that other drivers shouldn't have been given a penalty for exceeding track limits. But that was definitely a worth a penalty.
I think the big thing in the wording of the rule is “exceeding track limits to gain an advantage”. If Ocon in his lonely mid drive pulls all 4 wheels off and does nothing, well then who cares. Verstappen cutting the corner to take a podium 3 corners from the finish line well that’s something totally different
I agree it was worth a penalty. And I agree with the "gain an advantage" wording---although you could make the case that any corner-cutting lowers laptime and thus confers an advantage on the driver...
Anyway, most of what has people so up in arms is the fact that most folks really wanted to see Max up on the podium. His hungry mindset trumps Kimi's late-career apathy. Also, there have been SO many races where a driver with newer, fresher tires was closing in the last few laps of a race only to not be able to get past, and I think people were ready for the storyline to be different.
Current: '94 MX-6 V6/5 • '72 240Z • '10 Mazda5
Past: '02 330i/5 • '85 RX-7 GSL-SE • '95 540i/6 • '95 525i/5 • '86 635CSi/5 • '88 JZA70 • '86 4K quattro • '85 RX-7 S
Wish list: Type 44 • Manta • Pre-'85 CGT • 405 Mi16 • SVX • W123 Coupe
Ehehe, I saw the headline "Jos Verstappen insults FIA because of the penalty given to Max" or something along those lines before I started watching the race, and I knew I'd enjoy the next few hours!!!
Of course the penalty was completely just, it has been made painstakingly clear to everyone by now. Some just choose to want some kind of alternate truth because they're Verstappen fans or something. It has been hilarious listening to Max's childish whinings about the penalty and his nut job wife beater father's fuming too. Lol, Max saying that Bottas 'gained an advantage by going off track limits so I shouldn't be punished either'!! ROFL! Max pushed Bottas off the track illegally and only the existence of run-off areas made the situation look tame enough for him to avoid getting a penalty for that too! And then Max is trying to say that Bottas 'gained an advantage'...haha! Really Max should've already been handed a penalty for his move on Bottas!
Others have already pointed this out here, and also all you have to do is look at FIA's statements or Mika Salo's posting and everything would be 1000% clear:
-Going over the white lines was allowed in certain places because on your own, in terms of lap time it was precisely measured that they didn't gain an advantage.
-Going over the white lines in order to pass someone is of course, without a doubt gaining an advantage from going outside track limits.
To anyone with any kind of sense of decency, to anyone even remotely fair this is a no-brainer: of course it's not ok to pass someone with sneaky tricks like that, going off track! No driver really thinks that such a stunt is ok, and that's why Max left the podium so easily and quietly. Just later on he had to go on with his stupid ego and PR benefitting act and whining routine. Once again F1 is full of stupid gossip instead of racing...
BMWs are fun in the snow too...
My lord is Mercedes' pace well above the rest! And holy crap is Bottas failing hard, he must have serious setup issues or a major clash in driving style versus car. I've never rated Bottas as being such a great driver, but even I know he isn't as bad as what it looked liked last race.
Great drive from Vettel, he had a slight defending hiccup against Lewis (that pass would've happened anyway due to Hamilton having such a faster and more powerful car) but then again some great moves later on. And Kimi actually did something else than just cruise in the car relatively slowly this time! It's been a long time since we saw Kimi do anything else than follow behind others for a while before dropping back and getting passed by others...
Fantastic to see Red Bull with good race pace, Ricciardo drove really well and so did Verstappen. Just a shame that Verstappen has his cheating/elbows out instincts. Hopefully these kinds of consequences teach him to stop doing unnecessary crap like that and focus on using his driving skill and pace to pass others. He would've been able to complete the pass on Bottas even without aggressively pushing him off the track. And Kimi had clearly made a mistake while defending, Max would've most probably gotten past moments later or even more simply just by shoving his car into the apex instead of waaay beyond the track limits: Kimi would've had to leave him room and Max was on the inside so he was really safe from any counter-moves Kimi could've tried. We all know Kimi's a fair fighter anyway but Max just doesn't think, and lets his pre-learned nasty instincts come out. He needs to un-learn them because he'll do fine without them, much better in fact.
I hope to see Sainz in an even more competitive Renault or even another team after them, just to really see more of his pace and skill. Somehow I think until now we haven't really been able to see where he stands.
BMWs are fun in the snow too...
Track limits were not enforced all weekend, until the last pass for podium on the last corner? The penalty is a bit disingenuous, and contrary to the preseason edict.
Lauda agrees...
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...t-ever-seen-f1
Last edited by badmonkey; 10-23-2017 at 11:38 AM.
"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes."
-DNC
I actually agree with Hamusementpark here:
"He's off-track. This is the problem with today's circuits. I don't know who made the decision but there's all these run-off areas. Why is that not grass? If that was grass he wouldn't have gone there.
Current: '94 MX-6 V6/5 • '72 240Z • '10 Mazda5
Past: '02 330i/5 • '85 RX-7 GSL-SE • '95 540i/6 • '95 525i/5 • '86 635CSi/5 • '88 JZA70 • '86 4K quattro • '85 RX-7 S
Wish list: Type 44 • Manta • Pre-'85 CGT • 405 Mi16 • SVX • W123 Coupe
That has been explained: the main thing is whether or not they gain an advantage from going over track limits. For all other cases of exceeding track limits it has been very precisely and painstakingly proven that they did not gain an advantage. Through actual measurement. They were not passing anyone, the only advantage would have been in lap times. And FIA did measurements at all the spots where anyone crossed the line, timing from a point directly before and after that point, and they determined that no lap time advantage was gained.
As to Verstappen's case: he gained an advantage from his excursion, it's as simple as that. He went beyond track limits, that is fact. He gained an advantage due to that allowing him to pass Kimi. Fact. Before him going beyond track limits he was behind Kimi, when returning to the track he was ahead of Kimi. Simple.
Other drivers have commented that it is clear to everyone that you can't pass by going beyond track limits. This was not a surprise, not unexpected at all. Everyone knew this is what happens.
Last edited by MagneZium; 10-23-2017 at 01:06 PM.
BMWs are fun in the snow too...
Has everyone else noticed how all articles specifically avoid showing the damning evidence? Crazy to see at what level peoples' integrity is...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BakSk8QF...kasaloofficial
Note how these images are aggressively absent from news articles. The press really goes for what they feel like should be the truth and/or what their research shows is the most popular and best-selling truth, then they censor the actual truth:
Screen Shot 2017-10-23 at 20.29.27.png
Screen Shot 2017-10-23 at 20.29.37.png
Screen Shot 2017-10-23 at 20.29.52.png
I don't even want to know Brundle's take on this... He has had to continuously apologise for his long rants about track limits and how they have to be respected, how the line is there for a reason...and yet I suspect he'll have some kind of mental gymnastics he's gone through to somehow reverse his obsessive previous stance?
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Why do I feel like I'm taking crazy pills for saying that it's a pretty damn basic, fundamental and understandable rule of racing that you have to stay on track, that you can't cut off anywhere you like just because you feel like you should be given the win?
Isn't it a part of racing that you use SKILL to pass others ON THE TRACK?
But hey, maybe we should change this to a tv show called Driving Talent, forget driving and the race track completely, and have the audience vote for the most popular driver to win?
Last edited by MagneZium; 10-23-2017 at 01:46 PM.
BMWs are fun in the snow too...
I’d be interested to see the data proving exceeding track limits doesn’t provide an advantage. If not, why do it?
"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes."
-DNC
It's entirely possible to agree with the fact that Max exceeded track limits and that the penalty was justified AND to be supremely disappointed that he couldn't make the pass stick.
Sympathy for the RBR driver after an absolutely brilliant drive =/= justification of his maneuver on Kimi.
Current: '94 MX-6 V6/5 • '72 240Z • '10 Mazda5
Past: '02 330i/5 • '85 RX-7 GSL-SE • '95 540i/6 • '95 525i/5 • '86 635CSi/5 • '88 JZA70 • '86 4K quattro • '85 RX-7 S
Wish list: Type 44 • Manta • Pre-'85 CGT • 405 Mi16 • SVX • W123 Coupe
The other cases were at corner exit. It was when they let the car drift over the line, or when they made a mistake and as a result of the mistake the car went over the line.
I clearly heard it being stated, at the beginning of the race already, that the FIA had measured the situation with the corner cutting at the spots where it had been happening. They had a measuring point just before and just after that spot, and they compared data revealing that no-one going over the line had gained an advantage, they all lost time (at least up to the beginning of the GP).
Where Verstappen went off the track was not one of those places where it had been seen to be an issue earlier. Because that cut he made was only done to get around Kimi. The stewards looked at that case, found Verstappen to clearly have gained an advantage in track position. AFAIK they never even looked at the timing to see if he gained lap time with that, and that probably would've been impossible anyway since it wasn't a normal situation since they had had their speed decreased by the previous manoeuvres and Kimi's defence so hard to compare to 'normal' laps.
BMWs are fun in the snow too...
"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes."
-DNC
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