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Thread: 1995 E34 525i will not turn over, I can't tell if it's EWS or where to start

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    1995 E34 525i will not turn over, I can't tell if it's EWS or where to start

    A few months ago I went to go for a drive in my E34 and when I went to start it something happened and all of a sudden the starter was having a very hard time cranking the engine over. This car is my winter transportation and because this happened sometime in may I haven't gotten around to dealing with it until now. I know this was a bad idea but the track season was beginning and I was still restoring my M5 so it got kind of neglected .

    Two weeks ago I began trying to solve the problem. I got a used starter and replaced the one that was in the car. I also took the opportunity to replace all of the vacuum lines, the vanos oil line, and the valve cover gasket when I did so because the intake had to come out. When I got the car back together I went to start it and absolutely nothing happened. No cranks, no nothing. I could hear a few relays click but idk which one/s. The sound comes from under the rear seat. I tried charging the battery, swapping the batter for the one in my M3, and bump starting it. Nothing works. I thought I heard something when I bump started it but I think I was actually just hearing the compression stroke of the engine. I went back and hooked up a battery to the old starter and the solenoid seemed to fire perfectly, so now I'm not even sure if I diagnosed the original problem correctly...

    So now I'm not sure what to do. I have been working on cars for only a year now, and while I have made tremendous improvements in the mechanical area (fully rebuilt my M5 and M3 this past winter) I have little to no experience with solving electrical issues. A friend of mine who went through a similar issue with his E36 had an EWS problem and he seems to think this is probably that too. I am somewhat skeptical. I don't see how the EWS would all of a sudden have an issue like this.

    Can someone please give me a few things to try? I need to get this car running for winter, I can't drive my M5 or M3 on these salty roads and I've already got the snows for the E34.

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    How do you know it's not the EWS? Do you by chance have INPA to see? Yeah if the key isn't recognized, then it won't engage the starter on the EWS-2 equipped cars. What you can do to confirm is check the small black/green wire IIRC on the starter to see if you are getting 12V when the ignition switch is set to "start".

    Lastly, do you have a second key to check? Sometimes a key will be locked out by the EWS.
    Last edited by dworthy; 10-08-2017 at 11:52 AM.
    Darin
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    I have INPA but I don't have the pac man connector to hook it up to the E34, I usually only use it for my E39.

    I actually just learned something. I was looking for the EWS II module so I could try jumping two of the pins to at least test to see if the EWS was preventing the starter from working. I could not find the module for the life of me. I checked exactly where everyone says it is and there's nothing. So I knew my E34 is a 95 but I decided to look up the specific production date. It was manufactured 1/95... I did some more digging and I checked the ignition ring for the "antenna" that the EWS II cars have. I have no such antenna, there are no wires coming off the ring of the ignition switch. So I don't know if this is possible but it appears that I actually have EWS I.

    This means that I should haven a starter inhibit relay. I looked behind the speaker panel on the drivers side and looked up into the cavity. There are some relays up there and now that I have the panel off I think I can hear a relay clicking when I turn the key but nothing cranks.

    Does the central locking system have anything to do with EWS I? I have always had a funky central locking system and I read in a few threads that somehow the central locking system is involved with EWS.

    Are there some tests I can do by myself with a multimeter? I won't have anyone around to help me today so I can't, for example, hold the probes on the starter solenoid while someone turns the key etc.

  4. #4
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    Yes if it looks for the "Double Lock" from the central locking, so that too can cause it relay to not allow the starter to engage on the EWS-1 cars.

    The EWS-2 system is suppose to be installed on 1/95 vehicles, and if you don't have a ring, then maybe the P.O. had it removed.

    Again check for power at starter, for you just may have a bad starter here.
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    Darin
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    91 316i euro Tizianrot/Gray cloth - E-36 w/M-40 RIP, but great on gas! Best was 38 MPG
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    I'd check that the engine main ground is good; or connect a jumper cable from engine to a good frame ground. Also, check fuses 17 and 20. Check whether the black/yellow wire coming out of the ignition switch goes hot in start position, then check that same wire (sometimes solid black here) at the starter.

    There's a relay module under the back seat. The EWS is up behind the glove box, according to the ETMs.

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    I was finally able to get a second hand to help me for a minute. The battery only has like 11.7 volts in it, but I did confirm that the car still wouldn't start by putting my M3's battery in the car. With the 11.7 volts in the battery the constantly hot terminal on the starter measured about the same. When the key is turned to the start position the value at the lead went down to like 11.1 volts. Next I held the positive probe on the solenoid connection on the lower right side of the solenoid and then held the negative probe on the housing of the starter itself. It measured 0 volts. When the key was turned I got some voltage but it was only like 9.5 volts.

    The first conclusion I draw from this is that EWS must not be a problem at all if the starter solenoid is seeing voltage. Is that correct?

    If it is, it sounds like the first thing I need to do is get a new battery. The car doesn't seem to do anything at all when you turn the key to the start position, but if the solenoid isn't receiving enough voltage to even fire that would make sense right? Or should I be seeing dimming lights and hearing a clicking noise? It's weird that the solenoid was only seeing a little over 9 volts. Shouldn't it be getting the same as what the battery measures? I don't know how to check the grounds. I did see one that goes from the front subframe to the body. I removed it, cleaned both ends, and reinstalled but it made no difference.

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    If the starter solenoid is getting juice it's not EWS module which is above and left of the steering column.
    Let us know the results after trying a fully charged battery.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

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    There are two different small terminals on the starter; one goes to the unloader relay. Check both.

    Start with a battery that's got 12.6 or 12.7 volts. 11.7 volts is a dead battery.

    Make sure that the engine main ground is clean and tight, or alternatively hook a battery jumper cable from a good frame ground to the engine.

    An 11.7 volt battery drops pretty much to nothing (or maybe 9.5), when you try to start a car with it, because its available amperage is zero.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwdirtracer View Post
    There are two different small terminals on the starter; one goes to the unloader relay. Check both.

    Start with a battery that's got 12.6 or 12.7 volts. 11.7 volts is a dead battery.

    Make sure that the engine main ground is clean and tight, or alternatively hook a battery jumper cable from a good frame ground to the engine.

    An 11.7 volt battery drops pretty much to nothing (or maybe 9.5), when you try to start a car with it, because its available amperage is zero.
    Ok I didn't realize that. I haven't had time to get to this this week but tomorrow I will test some more things. To be clear, when I check for voltage at the small terminals on the starter I am still going to use the block as a ground correct? I have been charging up the battery while I'm home. It's up to 12.5 volts. I am going to bring it to a store to have it load tested. If it's shot I will buy a new one.

    Which terminal goes to the unloader relay? The small one that I could reach from above was the one that's on the right side if looking at the car head on, or the one that's closer to the right side of the car if standing over the bay from the drivers side. I wasn't able to reach the other one from the top.

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    I'm sorry, I do not recall which terminal is the input for starter activation.

    To test the starter, the easiest way: first, make sure certain conditions are ready for testing:

    Put your charged battery in place, making sure that both connections are clean and tight. While you're there, check the opposite end of the ground wire next to the battery.
    Then, ether check/or clean and rebolt, the engine main ground, at the passenger engine mount. (both ends)
    Then check the B+ terminal underhood is clean and tight.

    Now, use a large screwdriver, or pair of pliers which you really don't care about, to make a short circuit across the two big bolts of the solenoid. There will be sparks, but either (a)the starter will turn the engine, or (b) it will just click, or (c) it will make a very pronounced "thunk", and nothing will move. In the last instance, you'll need to remove the screwdriver within a second or so, or you'll smoke the starter.

    a) the starter is okay, we figure out where the activation voltage is.
    b) we make very sure there's enough electricity and good ground available, check a few additional connections, and if all is good, replace the starter
    c) we figure out why the engine is seized, or the starter is seized

    Chris Powell
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    Update:

    I did everything outlined above, except I wasn't sure which wire was the ground at the battery so I didn't check that. I used the battery from my M3 which I know is good, and the voltage was 12.45. I checked again at the B+ terminal and the voltage was the same.

    When I shorted the two terminals at the starter the motor ran but it didn't turn the engine over... I tried this several more times and it was the same. The starter runs but isn't connecting with the flywheel.

    So what happened was "a)", the starter ran but the activation isn't right, except now I have a second problem which is that the starter doesn't turn the engine.

    I'm assuming I didn't do the starter install correctly. Is it possible that that would cause my electrical issue too?

  12. #12
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    It's unlikely that the two issues are connected, unless your new starter is bad in two different ways.

    Let's start with the fact that the starter isn't engaging the flywheel. As I recall, you cannot see the mating surface between starter and transmission, from above....is this correct? You'll have to get under the car and look up, with a good flashlight, to view this seam. The starter needs to be flush against the transmission. As you would have noticed when you did the swap, there's a dowel between trans and starter, and it's a huge PITA. If it's not sanded down and heavily lubricated, the starter won't want to go flush with the transmission, and you'll likely pull the starter in crooked.

    IF the starter is flush with the transmission, and the gear still isn't engaging the flywheel when the starter spins, then the starter is bad.

    IF you're getting ~12 volts plus at either of the small bolts on the solenoid when the key is turned to start, and the starter is still not spinning (and assuming your engine is properly grounded to the frame/body), then the starter is bad.

    Just one more thing, so we can rule it out: Can you turn the engine with a big socket on the crankshaft bolt?

    Chris Powell
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    Ugh it looks like I can see the starter from above on the E34, and it doesn't look like it's totally flush with the transmission. I've attached two photos of where the dowel is.

    I know the engine isn't seized because I tried to pop start it by rolling it down my driveway. The motor turned over fine and I could hear the compression strokes. It didn't start when I tried that. However, correct me if I'm wrong, it had the dead battery in it when I tried which means it probably wouldn't have ran anyway.

    I think I need to go ahead and pull the starter.
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    Last edited by cohny; 10-14-2017 at 03:08 PM.

  14. #14
    dworthy's Avatar
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    I had the same issue with the E-36 when I came back from TDY. The starter would spin, but the pinion wouldn't engage the flywheel. I had taken it out and just put a rebuilt Bosch in, but I did clean the old one, and now it works just fine again.
    Darin
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    I pulled the starter, cleaned the dowel hole and the dowel itself, and reinstalled. It went back in very easily, but when I did the screwdriver trick it just spun again and did not engage. I thought maybe the gear wasn't connected to the motor or something, but when I hooked it up to a battery out of the car it spun no problem. To be sure the motor will turn I put a wrench on the crank and it turns no problem, very smoothly.

    I don't know what could be causing this. I made extra effort today to make sure the starter was flush to the transmission but I noticed that no matter what I did there was still a small gap where the dowel is. You can see that gap in the second photo above. Does that have to go away? The actual housing of the starter is definitely flush against the transmission, but there is that gap where the dowel is. Sounds like I need a new starter as dworthy experienced, correct?

    In the meantime, is there a place I should start looking to see why the starter isn't activating when I turn the key? Before I did the screw driver check again, I performed the same inspection that Chris outlined above. The battery voltage seems to have dropped from 12.45 to 12.40 today. I also noticed that the voltage at the B+ terminal jumps around when you hold the multimeter probes on it and one of the shock mount nuts. It will see 12.40 occasionally but constantly leap around. It seemed more consistent yesterday. I tried sanding the top of the B+ terminal and the nut and there was an improvement but it still seemed to leap around.

  16. #16
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    Well I am really embarrassed here but I made some progress.

    1) The voltage at the B+ terminal wasn't spotty, I was using a bad ground to measure it. With a better ground it was exactly what it reads at the battery.

    2) I pulled the starter again and bench tested it. I now realize that when I was doing the screwdriver trick I was only connecting the motor.... I totally bypassed the solenoid so the gear didn't move out to meet the flywheel.

    3) Once I realized I wasn't testing it right I discovered that my new starter was bad and the old one was good...

    4) I put the old starter back in, pulled the fuse for the fuel pump, and tried to start the car. The motor turned over no problem with my M3's battery.


    I'm not sure how I managed to get this far into this only to discover that I likely had a bad battery. I had the old battery load tested and it came back that it was good, but apparently not. I am going to buy a new starter anyways and take the opportunity to replace a lot of vacuum lines and other items while I'm at it.

  17. #17
    dworthy's Avatar
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    Hey, don't stress it, even experienced techs have done some simple mistakes too.

    Now you know how to test the starter, I would test the new one before you start the project again.
    Darin
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  18. #18
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    Hey guys I'm new here sorry if I'm out of line or talking etc where I shouldn't but I have a E36 97 model 318ti I'm having the same problem my car will not start of course I had to remove the intake manifold and all that etc to get to my starter just to test it to see that it worked fine so after doing all this and reading you guys posts I look down at my ground wire for the engine because I just replaced my motor mounts and see that it is disconnected I think you guys for being geniuses well that's a little above line but being intelligent and all the information you guys put out here I really do appreciate it it has helped me greatly and I'm not a dumb person but it just happened that I skipped a ground wire I put the ground wire back onto the motor mount or the area that It Bolts to install my intake manifold and my car fired right up so this is a thank you to everyone out there!��
    Last edited by MauiM3Mania; 04-15-2018 at 12:34 PM. Reason: profanity

  19. #19
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    I'm glad that you found some help here Jayson. Not to worry, about having left the ground disconnected. I accidentally do that at least once a year during a big job.

    For future reference, don't use profanity at this forum, or the moderator will have to clean it up, and advise you that this isn't permitted.

    Thanks for sharing your experience, and welcome to the forum !

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