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Thread: The Rear Grip Thread: Ride Height, Spring Rates, Anti-Squat

  1. #51
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    So... what alignment specs are you guys running to optimize grip? I just test drove my E46 and it’s so much worse than my FC. I’ve got an alignment appointment scheduled on Thursday so hopefully that helps

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    So... what alignment specs are you guys running to optimize grip? I just test drove my E46 and it’s so much worse than my FC. I’ve got an alignment appointment scheduled on Thursday so hopefully that helps
    -5* F
    0* R
    1/2" rear toe in
    1/2-3/4" front toe out.

    What is the car doing that you don't like?

    Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  3. #53
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    It’s just feels like it has no forward bite. It’s sort of hard to explain. You know how you can go in to a corner hot, get on the handbrake to get out to an outer zone, pop the clutch and get on throttle and normally it’ll stay on that line/ on the track? Mine won’t. It’ll just walk off the track backwards while spinning the tires forward. I run the same line in the RX7 and nail the zone so I know (well, I assume) it’s not something in the way I’m driving.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    It’s just feels like it has no forward bite. It’s sort of hard to explain. You know how you can go in to a corner hot, get on the handbrake to get out to an outer zone, pop the clutch and get on throttle and normally it’ll stay on that line/ on the track? Mine won’t. It’ll just walk off the track backwards while spinning the tires forward. I run the same line in the RX7 and nail the zone so I know (well, I assume) it’s not something in the way I’m driving.
    What is your ride height front and rear, as well as spring rates? I had the same washing out feeling before raising my car where I was just pedaling it for grip and couldn't get on throttle really in the outside zones.

    Mike
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    -5* F
    0* R
    1/2" rear toe in
    1/2-3/4" front toe out.

    What is the car doing that you don't like?

    Mike
    Caster?
    What's that in degrees?

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  6. #56
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    Why degrees? People don't have Hunter racks at the track, they have toe plates. I hate it when people quote degrees. I have to do a bunch of trig to figure out what they mean in "real numbers."

    Degrees for camber is easy of course, and what the heck else would you do really, but for toe... Good old inches baby! Even centimeters or millimeters would be fine with me.
    Last edited by tptrsn; 11-07-2017 at 08:38 AM.

  7. #57
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    Because your toe plates might be different than mine. Or you use the lower notches while I use the upper notches. Degrees are exact while inches can vary depending on your method of measurement.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  8. #58
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    If you trig that out you'll see the differences are absolutely minimal, and are far less than what you can control while adjusting or can notice behind the wheel.

  9. #59
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    That's just like... you're opinion man.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  10. #60
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    Different camber plates or height of notches shouldn’t matter when it’s in inches though, 1/2” of difference measured 1” off the ground is going to be 1/2” of difference measured 6” off the ground aswell, as were only referring to the difference between measurements and not saying “oh it’s 78.500 at the front of the tire and 78.000 at the rear” right?

  11. #61
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    I really just wanted degrees because it's easier for me. I didn't want this to become a thing <_<. Height isn't the issue, the distance between the measurement points left to right is. If your toe plates upper notches are 12 inches apart and the bottom are 11 inches apart, you'll get differing degrees for the same inch values. But tptrsn's point is that the difference will be something like 0.001" and really doesn't matter in variance between toe plate manufacturers. And he's right. I just prefer seeing degrees than inches as I'm normally on laser alignment machines instead of toe plates.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeE36 View Post
    What is your ride height front and rear, as well as spring rates? I had the same washing out feeling before raising my car where I was just pedaling it for grip and couldn't get on throttle really in the outside zones.

    Mike
    6.5" rear
    6" front
    measured from the holes where the jack pads used to be. I haven't remeasured after driving it around yet, so I am sure they settled a little bit.

    Brand new fortune auto 500s w/ Swift springs
    8k front
    7k rear

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    That's just like... you're opinion man.
    Well sure, but I'm a little disappointed that you didn't make your point in a more visually appealing way... Nothing against Lebowski or whatever, I think you know what I mean. Haha

  14. #64
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    I couldn't find a gif of scarjo scratching near her crotch.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  15. #65
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    6.5" rear
    6" front
    measured from the holes where the jack pads used to be. I haven't remeasured after driving it around yet, so I am sure they settled a little bit.

    Brand new fortune auto 500s w/ Swift springs
    8k front
    7k rear
    You should change up your rear rates, they should be stiffer. Just jumping to a 10k will make he car feel exponentially better.
    Last edited by Jaze; 11-08-2017 at 09:24 PM.

  17. #67
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    I called Fortune auto and gave them a sheet with all the build specs on my car and this is what they recommended. The BCs that we’re on the car previously (I have not driven on the fortunes yet) were either 8k or 12k. 80% sure they were 12k

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaze View Post
    You should change up your rear rates, they should be stiffer. Just jumping to a 10k will make he car feel exponentially better.
    What would you recommend on a 1JZ E36 for drift? I know you had one :P
    I believe I currently have 8k/10k and I liked it with the S52.
    instagram @andyitslit

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    I called Fortune auto and gave them a sheet with all the build specs on my car and this is what they recommended. The BCs that we’re on the car previously (I have not driven on the fortunes yet) were either 8k or 12k. 80% sure they were 12k
    I trust fortune auto. <3 Matt

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    I called Fortune auto and gave them a sheet with all the build specs on my car and this is what they recommended. The BCs that we’re on the car previously (I have not driven on the fortunes yet) were either 8k or 12k. 80% sure they were 12k
    I'm not sure if you have a special recipe for your rear end, or who you spoke to or what the circumstances are but if you have a stock 328i those rates in my opinion are incorrect according to the motion ratios of the car and based on my experiences with e36s. Feel free to call them back and say you have a concern about your specs after speaking with Jaze of BWS and they will look it over for you again. If you aren't getting where you want, just ask to speak with Jaze, I can explain further. BTW I am also assuming you have a OEM style rear suspension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Press22 View Post
    What would you recommend on a 1JZ E36 for drift? I know you had one :P
    I believe I currently have 8k/10k and I liked it with the S52.
    To be honest, during that build we didn't have all of the information available now and I haven't been "in to" drifting in a good 5 years but a 10/14k and 12/16k set up for me felt fantastic when it was putting out 450ish whp. Bear in mind it wasn't a dedicated drift car and style was just as important as performance...maybe it took priority when looking back.

    If i were doing it all over today, i'd have to play with the fronts along the lines of 8 or 9k with a 14k rear spring and a ridiculously high rear ride height. Mike explained these theories in the thread, and I have been using that formula for close to 7 years at this point with a damn near 100% success rate.

    One of my good buddy's car Frank (e36 Hater) runs a 14k rear spring, tall ass drag radials, my special grip shock valving, and I haven't seen an e36 come close to gripping like that. He is a roll racer, not a drifter but I believe we can take some principles from that and apply it to drifting rather easily. My first test if I had to take Frank's car and drift is to see if a lower rear rate would grip/smoke/forward bite more. After all, those drag tires provide a shit ton of mechanical grip which is possible is compensating for the stiffer rates. My hypothesis is that it would create more smoke and be marginally more stable in transition (while using appropriate drift tires), Mike's test of going from 16k to 10k is conclusive with that but I would need to be doing all the testing myself with my own set of variables before I can speak as confidently as i would like on the subject after so many years.

    I could go on and on about this LOL.


    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    I trust fortune auto. <3 Matt

    And you should, he is a very smart Gentleman when it comes to suspension. I sit directly in front of him every work day, and pick his brain a lot.
    Last edited by Jaze; 11-09-2017 at 07:09 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaze View Post
    I'm not sure if you have a special recipe for your rear end, or who you spoke to or what the circumstances are but if you have a stock 328i those rates in my opinion are incorrect according to the motion ratios of the car and based on my experiences with e36s. Feel free to call them back and say you have a concern about your specs after speaking with Jaze of BWS and they will look it over for you again. If you aren't getting where you want, just ask to speak with Jaze, I can explain further. BTW I am also assuming you have a OEM style rear suspension.
    I just double checked the email, it is from Matt. I have an E46 with an LS6/T56, full cage, tube front, tube rear, rear mounted rad, rear mounted water pump, and battery relocated to inside the cabin. I also have carbon / kevlar quarter panels, a carbon decklid, and lexan rear window. I just assumed it was something to do with the weight differences from a stock E46. I have not driven on the fortunes yet at all, I wrecked the car on BCs and got the fortunes.

  22. #72
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    That is quite the extensive mod list! I was under the impression it was a stock body, I would 100% trust Matt's suggestion as my suggestions/advice definitely did not take any of that in to account. I am speaking strictly from a stock body stand point. Once you do get out there with the car, feel free to ask for Matt for fine tuning. I wouldn't mind looking it over for you either, just ask Matt to run it by me and we can maximize this anti squat thing for you.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaze View Post
    That is quite the extensive mod list! I was under the impression it was a stock body, I would 100% trust Matt's suggestion as my suggestions/advice definitely did not take any of that in to account. I am speaking strictly from a stock body stand point. Once you do get out there with the car, feel free to ask for Matt for fine tuning. I wouldn't mind looking it over for you either, just ask Matt to run it by me and we can maximize this anti squat thing for you.
    Awesome! I should be testing it next weekend. I also changed to offset rtab bushings to add some toe in so i'll be sure to post a report!

  24. #74
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    I was planning on just going to Matt when i ordered my 510s for the E46. 10/14 sounds nice to me. lil bit softer in the rear to make up for the slight front heaviness of the E46.

    Tell Matt kiki says hi.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  25. #75
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    Those if you running 2.5id coilover springs in the rear of your e46's. What rate are you running and what length? I'm thinking about doing 5" 650's. My lowering springs are too soft and I get a ton of squat in the rear under power. I'm thinking 6" coils may be too tall.

    Edit: based on some of these posts, should I be trying to find something heavier than 650's? 16kg is nearly 900lb/in. Are the UCA's not breaking with that much rate?
    Last edited by welchct; 11-10-2017 at 08:05 PM.

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