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Thread: E39 540i crank no start following timing chain replacement

  1. #26
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    E39 540i crank no start following timing chain replacement

    Those injection time signals don't seem right. If I get a chance I will see what my say during ignition but no promises any time soon. Hopefully tomorrow but...

    The rest of this is the off the wall thinking. May not be applicable, just things I thought of playing the mental exploration game.

    I don't know why, but the valve cover leak has me thinking about some potentially "oddball" items that could cause this...
    1) how did you install the upper timing covers? Double washer method? In theory, if not done correctly, this could result in camshaft sensor misalignment. I believe this should result in smooth running issues vice a no start but...
    2) how about the crankshaft sensor? I don't think you should have touched it or the line but just in case...
    3) when you took the injectors out and placed the electrical harness out of the way, how did you lay it? StRaNgEdAyS had an issue of a line break that during testing gave continuity but vibrations during actual start disconnected it to prevent start.


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    I have 8 grim data points to share...

    Rented a compression tester. Provided the numbers are good... I have a severe problem. Take a look for yourself:


    1 20 PSI
    2 40 PSI
    3 30 PSI
    4 40 PSI
    5 30 PSI
    6 40 PSI
    7 40 PSI
    8 40 PSI
    This was one of those thread-on compression testers with rubber o-rings to complete the seal. They can only be installed hand tight due to the head geometry on the M62, and the fact that there is no hex to tighten even if you could reach that area. The manufacturer instructions say that hand tight is the correct usage. It is "OEM" brand, appears well built, not abused, and holds pressure after cranking.

    To compression test, I removed all the spark plugs and allowed 5 full revolutions for the pressure to reach its maximum value in the gauge. I was at WOT during all these measurements. The only thing I obviously couldn't do was test compression with a warm engine. Nonetheless, I feel like 20% of the 200 PSI spec for cold compression test is not acceptable and the car will never start if that value is true. If anyone has a cold compression value to reference let me know.

    But this really gets me wondering... what gives? This car started and ran smoothly. The timing has been verified (see first post), unless I missed the boat severely with my methodology. What would cause such a precipitous drop in compression other than piston to valve collision (the car ran??), or overheating and a warped block (the temp gauge did not climb above the midpoint?). The only reasonable explanation I have is that I could have bore wash from all this cranking. But I gave a crack at that theory already...

    Any and all ideas are much appreciated. Thank you guys for your help.
    Last edited by Jay M.; 09-29-2017 at 10:39 PM.

  3. #28
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    E39 540i crank no start following timing chain replacement

    JimLev and GearGrinder [s]can probably [/s] are eminently more qualified to answer better but yes those look a little low.

    Try re wetting the cylinders with oil. You may have "superwashed" the walls between the brake cleaner and start attempts.

    What brake cleaner did you use btw?


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    Last edited by TheAngryBear; 09-29-2017 at 11:14 PM.

  4. #29
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    Seeing that the engine ran after you did the guides we can rule out anything you did in that job.
    I have the same type of compression tester, as long as it's threaded in somewhat tight is will read fine. I'd squirt a little oil in all the cylinders like AngryBear suggested, then crank the engine over 5-10 revolutions with all the plugs out. Then check your compression in all 8 again. I checked mine a few years ago when it was cold, IIRC they were all between 195-200 PSI.
    Your compression should be north of 180 PSI.

    Pull the fuel pump relay or fuse out when you do this so you won't be squirting in more fuel.
    Last edited by JimLev; 09-29-2017 at 11:38 PM.

  5. #30
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    Agreed. Betting its a bore wash. Happens to the poor M54 slobs all the time. With DBW cars when compression testing you're supposed to prop the throttle plate open too to make sure it's fully open since the DME somewhat ignores or least overrides pedal commands during start cycles, however I suspect the start was initially inhibited by the bad TB connections , then you had enough attempts with injectors firing that you borewashed.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngryBear View Post
    but yes those look a little low.
    under statement of the week.
    You may have "superwashed" the walls
    thats a new one.

    Seriously, how does it "sound" turning over? At those pressures it should sound like it has no plugs in it.
    I would suspect a faulty compression tester, but given everything else, who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mach540 View Post
    thats a new one.
    Yes, didn't know how else to put it. In addition to the fuel wash from the non-starts the brake cleaner also would have washed out the oil. Between the two a superwash. (It probably makes more sense in my head.)


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    Oh yeah I didn't think about how bad the brakekleen would be for borewash! Duh of course. That's almost certainly it.
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    I left the plugs out of the engine overnight hoping some fuel will evaporate. Does anyone feel one way or another on using transmission VS. engine oil to combat bore wash? I have both engine oil and ATF for power steering readily available.

    Plan is to cycle the lubricant in with a few cranks and let it sit again before doing another compression test / start attempt.

    The coolant spill --> busted TB --> subsequent fuel dumping of fuel + some brake clean --> loss of compression --> perpetuation of problem avenue is pretty ridiculous but is the only thing that seems plausible. Hopefully it is indeed just those few simple mistakes.

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    I would just use the engine oil. Not sure if the trans oil would do anything but in my mind, why risk?


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    Engine oil, make sure you pull the fuel pump relay or the fuse. In your car the fuse would be easier to get at.

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    Yeah. Engine oil is what does the factory job, use that. In ideal world big squirts, quick short turnover plugs out, let it sit overnight. Little light resquirt and another turn in AM, and then try and start. If you're impatient it may just start right away but most guys suggest the overnight soak.
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    Gotta say, I cannot fathom how "bore wash" could possibly cause that amount of compression loss on an engine...... ever.

    Even if an engine were to be assembled with ZERO piston rings installed, I would expect that it would still build 10 to 20 Psi of compression. WITH NO PISTON RINGS!
    Let us make a quick calculation.

    Piston clearance we'll say is .005" per side, .010" total. Bore size is 4". The area of the difference between 4.000" and 3.990" is .062 inches squared. Which is a circular diameter of .140" That's about 1/8 of an inch. Imagine if you drilled a 1/8"hole in your piston. You would still get a decent amount of compression.

    There is no way that 90% of the air is blowing by the rings in the 1/4 second it takes for the compression stroke at starter speeds.
    Last edited by Mach540; 09-30-2017 at 07:45 PM.

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    We're you certain that the throttle was 100% open when you did the testing? How we're you sure?
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    Well I said a buncha times you need to prop it and not count on the DBW Pedal although there's been no confirm of hearing that message.
    .
    Mach I hear you but this is known deal w M54's. Compression gets crushed to level of no start. Something about the ring design. So plausible that gas and BC might do same w M62.
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  16. #41
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    Just measured compression an hour after delivering oil to the cylinder walls with a syringe and vacuum line. It's up to the 60-90PSI ballpark depending on which cylinder I measure. I'll keep letting it soak in. When I shined a flashlight onto the top of the pistons they were bone dry prior to oiling.

    I'll verify that the TB is actually at WOT later as I don't have a second person to crank the car at the moment.

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    You could just unbolt the throttle body, then you wouldn't need a secong person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    You could just unbolt the throttle body, then you wouldn't need a secong person.
    Just gave this ago, compression readings are the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mach540 View Post
    Gotta say, I cannot fathom how "bore wash" could possibly cause that amount of compression loss on an engine...... ever.

    Even if an engine were to be assembled with ZERO piston rings installed, I would expect that it would still build 10 to 20 Psi of compression. WITH NO PISTON RINGS!
    Let us make a quick calculation.

    Piston clearance we'll say is .005" per side, .010" total. Bore size is 4". The area of the difference between 4.000" and 3.990" is .062 inches squared. Which is a circular area of .140" That's about 1/8 of an inch. Imagine if you drilled a 1/8"hole in your piston. You would still get a decent amount of compression.

    There is no way that 90% of the air is blowing by the rings in the 1/4 second it takes for the compression stroke at starter speeds.
    Actually it easily explains it. Using his readings and some liberal math each cylinder is taking in 1.3 kg/hr of air (MAF reading). Full compression pressures through your calculated hole size would be 1.05 kg/hr which comes out to an 80% loss which is basically where we are. And that hole size is basically the ring gap iirc.

    Looks like a quick fill gave it some compression back. I suspect a longer "soak" will give more allowing more oil to fill the gaps etc. there should be a limited return on soaking though I am unsure about the brake cleaner in a limited space: how long does it last, did it cause "gunk" to go into the valves preventing a seal, etc. Worst case I can see is that the valve stem seals were "washed" and they "grabbed" resulting in tears or broke down the seals... but let's not go there and maintain hope. If continued compression loss then a leakdown and scope is probably in order.


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  20. #45
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    The valve stem seals are at the top of the valve stems. They just keep the oil from dripping down the valve stems.
    The back side of the valves themselves do the sealing to the heads to keep the compression in the cylinders.
    If compression doesn't improve it might be good to pull the valve covers and take a look at the cams operating the lifters.
    Something could possibly have loosen up. It's happened here before.
    Last edited by JimLev; 09-30-2017 at 05:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAngryBear View Post
    Actually it easily explains it. Using his readings and some liberal math each cylinder is taking in 1.3 kg/hr of air (MAF reading). Full compression pressures through your calculated hole size would be 1.05 kg/hr which comes out to an 80% loss which is basically where we are. And that hole size is basically the ring gap iirc.
    Granted, I'm not using scientific formulas for air flow, but I think there are a couple of errors in your calculation. (And I'm certainly prepared to be proven wrong.)
    First: I'm assuming your 1.3 Kg/hr is at idle speed. We are at probably 1/4 idle speed at starter RPM, so say 200 RPM which would than be .325 Kg/hr
    Second: The air flow of 1.05 Kg/hr is calculated @ 200 PSI. During the compression stroke it starts and zero and goes up to 200, so the flow thru the hypothetical hole would be 1/2 of calculated amount.

    Add it all up, and it just does not seem possible to me that the piston rings in the OP's engine are allowing that much air to escape. Dry rings in a dry bore of a newly assembled engine would still do a decent job of sealing.
    Bore wash from my understanding can cause loss of compression over a VERY LONG TERM due to increased cylinder wear. It does not cause instant compression loss on an engine that was running properly just minutes before.

    I could believe that the brake cleaner treatment caused large chunks of gunk to come loose and that gunk could be preventing the valves from closing, BUT, this seems too uniform across all cylinders to logically be that.
    Also, the no-start started prior to the brake cleaner treatment. So that throws a blanket of doubt over the whole situation.

    And the area of a ring gap is on the order of .02 x .150 (ring width) = .003 inches squared. A long way from the calculated .062 inches squared of a piston with no rings.
    Last edited by Mach540; 09-30-2017 at 08:17 PM.

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    E39 540i crank no start following timing chain replacement

    Mach540, I actually used his MAF reading at start from his screenshot but true, I used some liberal (read fuzzy or shorthand) math of max flow vs integrated differentials of the pressure build and resultant flows through whatever holes may be present. Air, being compressible, makes it oh so much more fun.

    Good point on the "crud drop" as well, it would be somewhat miraculous to have a uniform drop and blockage.

    So what are we left with?
    1. Lost compression (maybe ?half? explained by washout)
    2. Odd injection signals
    3. Coolant spray leaving junk various places
    4. Fuses intact
    5. ???

    Jim may have something with pulling the valve covers and seeing if anything is loose... but I can't think of what...

    Will think on it and see if I can think of anything else.


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    Someone here a while back didn't tighten either the vanos bolt or the exhaust sprocket bolt enough, it came loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Someone here a while back didn't tighten either the vanos bolt or the exhaust sprocket bolt enough, it came loose.
    Yeah, thought about this, too, but if one bank slipped, it would only affect that bank. How could both banks be affected equally?? The only way i think that could happen is if the drive sprocket on the crank slipped...... not likely.
    But wouldn't hurt to pull the covers and see where the cam locks line up.

    (or maybe we are being trolled by a maniacal genius.....)

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    Well. 20 is crazy low. But for the 40's... That's in line w M54 borewash syndrome numbers, Plus or minus the throttle plate maybe not being opened. Since he jumped to 90 with some initial oil, I think so far it's proving out the basic hypothesis.
    1. Shorts caused engine to not start for some reason
    2. Gas flooded cylinders perhaps starting a wash down
    3. Brakeclean massively exacerbated the bore wash situation
    4. Not propping the DBW then maybe kept compression down even more during test (maybe accounts for the 20)

    Keep in mind the entire purpose of brake clean is to be able to massively solve and evaporate any kind of petroleum grease or oil on a metal surface. It's basically the perfect thing to do away with your ring sealing.

    For now I think valve sealing concerns are extremely unlikely, as well cam timing having coincidentally slipped at same time the coolant puked.

    If there's anything above and beyond that I'd worry about it'd more likely be the brakeclean working so well that one seized and the bores scored or rings got damaged.

    Still waiting for OP to try a restart after the multiple oil soaks and attempt to reseal the rings. If that doesn't restore compression and/or result in during, then maybe ok look back at valve stuff.
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