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Thread: Is an E36/5.0/T5 swap a good track (track, not autocross) car? I grade it a B.

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    Is an E36/5.0/T5 swap a good track (track, not autocross) car? I grade it a B.

    There isn't a ton of information in the archives talking about how the V8 swap cars work out as HPDE/Driver's Club cars. Just autocrosser and rallycrosser notes.
    I've taken my E36/Ford 5.0/T5 swap to Summit Main for about 8 different track days this summer, and here's what I think so far: The balance of the car is good, the transmission is passable but not great, the power levels with a stockish 5.0 are good enough to be fun, and the setup is tough enough to serve the purpose long-term. But it's not a "fast" track car.

    1. The V8 has a very different feel on the track than the BMW 4 and 6 cylinder cars, because there's much more torque.

    2. I'm running a T5 transmission with a 3.15 differential and 17" wheels, and that's about right for track work. I tried 15" wheels for a while but the car ran out of 4th gear too early, and the T5 5th gear is useless on track with a 3.15. The car has enough torque that I use 3rd and 4th exclusively, even when I'm coming off an apex as low as 35 mph.

    3. The car gets off the apex quick and it really shines from there to 100 MPH.

    4. Over 100, the speed keeps picking up but at about 1/3 slower rate, slowly enough to ding lap times a bit. This is with a 5.0 running a TFS Stage 1 cam, stock heads with uprated valve springs to handle the cam, and an Explorer intake. I run out of straight on Summit Main just under 125 mph.

    5. The car needs a limited-slip differential, and I don't have mine installed yet. Without an LSD, on 200 TW tires, a so-so driver will keep up with class-racer prepped Miatas in excellent hands and running slicks, until a long combination of sweepers, when they go bye-bye.

    6. The car needs the typical top-end upgrade for airflow. Aluminum heads, matching intake, bigger injectors, a cam, a MAF, and a tune. Without that, I'm not going to keep up with Porsches after water cooling, BMW M cars of the E46 and later series, or a C5 (assuming same tires and talent).

    7. The motor/trans swap does not screw up the balance of the chassis, even though a 5.0 with stock iron heads is heavier than the M52. It's still about a 1.1 - 1.2g car with budget 200 treadwear tires.

    8. A stock M3 suspension is passable but barely. Stock steering is just as good as the original E36, since it's all the same hardware. With rebound-adjustable dampers and height-adjustable racing springs, it's 4N ("nimble, neutral, and never numb").

    9. The T5 shift gate is a bit of a trial even with an aftermarket shifter.

    10. I used a 325is and the brakes with DTC-60s are good enough for the HP and tires I have but I'm going to need the E46 330/328 upgrade before I add more power or tire.

    11. Oil pressure is not an issue. It only dips a second when I'm really scrubbing a ton of speed or right at the start of a 1 g turn. I may need a small Accusump after the top end upgrade or before slicks, but that will be enough because the dips are short and spaced out.

    12. Oil temp is a problem at 4,000 RPMs and up. An oil cooler and synthetic oil with frequent changes are good enough to get me through. Engine coolant temps are 100% fine (I used the Jegs house-brand performance aluminum radiator with Ford outlets and an 18-pound cap).

    This is just one man's experience, on one track, with one car.
    Last edited by JBasham; 09-21-2017 at 05:27 PM.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Great information!

    How many miles is 8 track days for you?

    What is your wheel HP for your combination?

    Overall weight?

    Thanks.

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    I've talked to several 5.0 fanatics around me and the general consensus is that you don't need fancy parts unless you have a fancy, rebuilt engine. I have GT40P heads and asked about AFR's since they give the best flow rate and are rated the best heads for a stock bottom end 302 but was told to not worry about them unless I had a fully rebuilt engine. However, I guess for a track car you can justify aluminum heads to reduce weight. Up to 50 pounds even. Bigger injectors only give marginal gains but if you do, don't forget to get a maf calibrated for them.
    https://youtu.be/uwzDbHjQ4mo

    That being said, a built aluminum block will save you roughly 80-100 pounds but the block alone is 4k. A boosted Dart block, World Products block, or even a Boss block will handle 800HP. At this point though, you either need to rebuild that T5 with Atlas gears or switch it out to something more stout. Your diff will definitely hate you as well.
    How deep are your pockets?

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    Have a link to the radiator or a picture of what it looks like in the car?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lbennyboobool View Post
    Have a link to the radiator or a picture of what it looks like in the car?
    Check Ponchiz's thread on his build; I put a few in there somewhere.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ponchiz318 View Post
    I've talked to several 5.0 fanatics around me and the general consensus is that you don't need fancy parts unless you have a fancy, rebuilt engine. I have GT40P heads and asked about AFR's since they give the best flow rate and are rated the best heads for a stock bottom end 302 but was told to not worry about them unless I had a fully rebuilt engine. However, I guess for a track car you can justify aluminum heads to reduce weight. Up to 50 pounds even. Bigger injectors only give marginal gains but if you do, don't forget to get a maf calibrated for them.
    https://youtu.be/uwzDbHjQ4mo

    That being said, a built aluminum block will save you roughly 80-100 pounds but the block alone is 4k. A boosted Dart block, World Products block, or even a Boss block will handle 800HP. At this point though, you either need to rebuild that T5 with Atlas gears or switch it out to something more stout. Your diff will definitely hate you as well.
    How deep are your pockets?
    Thanks Ponchiz as always. when I say "aluminum heads" I mean big valves. Choose your favorite brand. GT40 heads and an Exploder intake are a great step up and an awesome value but they're not going to give me 120/120 more horsepower/torque like the aftermarket units. Yes that means new injectors and MAF, camshaft, intake, tune, plus of course a free-flowing exhaust (your specialty!), don't forget pushrods, head bolts, gaskets and probably lifters. I've scraped together the parts in the local used market over a couple years for right around $1,200. That doesn't include the $250 for a Moates programmer linkage for me to rewrite the EEC-IV tune, but I plan on paying up to get that new rather than used. PS your GT40P heads might like stronger valve springs if you like to run the tach over to the right side of the dial. And thanks again for the lead on the tach converter, it works great.
    Last edited by JBasham; 09-22-2017 at 04:22 PM.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Mc View Post
    Great information!

    How many miles is 8 track days for you?

    What is your wheel HP for your combination?

    Overall weight?

    Thanks.
    Interesting question. I tend to think in terms of hours rather than miles. Doing the math in my head, a short day like an HPDE would be about 80 miles and a long day like Driver's Club would be 200. Ish.

    I haven't put it on a dyno. But hey, it's a freshened-up Foxbody 5.0 motor with a TFS Stage 1 cam, an Explorer intake, and EEC-IV adaptive EFI. Probably 240-250 at the crank minus whatever your favorite drivetrain loss percentage is.

    I haven't put it on scales. It's an E36 with no interior except the dash and the driver's seat. Maybe somewhere around 3000 pounds? I don't want to sidetrack this into an E36 weight reduction thread.
    Last edited by JBasham; 09-22-2017 at 04:28 PM.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TipsyMcStagger View Post
    Dude, I've got hot oil as it is . . . .
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
    PS your GT40P heads might like stronger valve springs if you like to run the tach over to the right side of the dial. And thanks again for the lead on the tach converter, it works great.
    That converter is working great for me too.
    The springs were upgraded in my heads by the previous owner to suit the E303 cam. I'm seriously considering a power adder next. New rings will go in before I do that though.

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    Any on track videos?

    I figure the data is useful for durability and performance for other converted E36's.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
    Dude, I've got hot oil as it is . . . .
    I was being factitious.

    But if you've already got an oil cooler and you've still got high oil temp, I'd have to think either your oil temp reading is inaccurate or you've got some kind of internal issue going on.

    Tipsy

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    Sorry Tipsy I was just having some fun. Tipple on.

    Jamey
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
    I'm running a T5 transmission with a 3.15 differential and 17" wheels, and that's about right for track work. I tried 15" wheels for a while but the car ran out of 4th gear too early, and the T5 5th gear is useless on track with a 3.15.
    Old thread bump, I know, but I'm not sure this is worthy of it's own thread.

    For the 5.0/T5 guys, what are your thoughts on diff ratios to run? If I pursue a swap with my just acquired 325i, I'm unlikely to ever see a track, just spirited road driving and likely seasonal DD. This would mean I'd be a bit more concerned about highway RPMs in 5th to maintain some semblance for economy... I see the above comment about "5th is worthless on track" but not being a track guy, I'm not sure which way to take the comment...

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    When I was figuring this out, I went to one of the online calculators where I could input the T5 gear ratios, the differential ratio, and the tire size. The calculators give RPM numbers for the gear selections at whatever speed the user asks. For example, I think a T5 in 4th gear with a 3.15 diff and 23" tires will be spinning 3k RMP at 65 miles per hour. Check the numbers to be sure, but I'm guessing that a T5 in 5th gear with a 3.25 diff and a normal-ish tire size for a 17" wheel would cruise just fine on the interstate. Double-check, but I think the T5 gear ratios are 3.35, 1.99, 1.33, 1, and 0.68.

    In other news, I have installed the 330i/325 E46 brake calipers and rotors. And a 3.15 LSD. Track "testing" resumes in April and I will try to remember to update the thread. I have the parts for the HCI upgrade of the motor, but the time budget hasn't worked out yet, and I can't decide whether to put it on my existing bottom end or get a 331 stroker bottom end.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSxDreamer View Post
    For the 5.0/T5 guys, what are your thoughts on diff ratios to run? If I pursue a swap with my just acquired 325i, I'm unlikely to ever see a track, just spirited road driving and likely seasonal DD. This would mean I'd be a bit more concerned about highway RPMs in 5th to maintain some semblance for economy... I see the above comment about "5th is worthless on track" but not being a track guy, I'm not sure which way to take the comment...
    I'm running the stock M3 3.23 LSD and I have no desire to change it up. Second gear is good for 25- 60mph so I basically never have to shift while autocrossing. 2000rpm @ 70mph in 5th gear is fine for cruising, low to mid 20s mpg on the highway, 16-17 combined driving. With a stock 5.0 you'll probably be shifting by 5000rpm - not much power above there so it's better to shift and get back in the torqueband.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
    I'm running the stock M3 3.23 LSD and I have no desire to change it up. Second gear is good for 25- 60mph so I basically never have to shift while autocrossing. 2000rpm @ 70mph in 5th gear is fine for cruising, low to mid 20s mpg on the highway, 16-17 combined driving. With a stock 5.0 you'll probably be shifting by 5000rpm - not much power above there so it's better to shift and get back in the torqueband.
    Neat. My game plan would be: Explorer 5.0, E303/TFS1, valve springs out the gate. Still trying to decide on the ignition/ecu setup...

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    I ran those cams through CamQuest with a stock Explorer 5.0, GT-40P heads, stock intake, and stock-ish exhaust.

    E-cam: 285hp@5500rpm, avg 81.5
    305tq@3500rpm, avg 111.5

    TFS1: 289hp@5500rpm, avg 84.1
    317tq@3500rpm, avg 117.6

    The cam I have my eye on for when the time is right for my M3 is the Comp XE274HR

    285hp@5500rpm, avg 84.5
    327tq@3500rpm, avg 119.1

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    I hear ya. The torque + the T5 in these cars is addictive, and 3rd gear covers a ridiculous amount of territory on the track. I assume it's even better autocrossing, but I don't know diddly about that activity.

    FWIW, I'm running the TFS 1. At least, I think it is. Mine was marketed as the "Track Heat," but I think it has the same cam card. 112 separation, 0.499/0.510 lift, and 221/225 duration at 0.050. I have no urge to shop for anything different. If anything, I could probably use power higher up the band, not lower. Once I get the new exhaust done, but before I start tearing into the top of the motor, I promise I'm going to get it dynoed and I will post it up.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Yep, those are the specs I found for the TFS1. I'm still running the stock Explorer cam and honestly it's not bad for autocross - the car is a monster from 2000 to 4500, which is most of the time. It fell short on the drag strip and I know I'd be missing the top end if I went drifting or road coursing. My SCCA chapter is holding a dyno day in April so I'll find out what this thing is putting down - here's hoping for at least 200 wheel

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    UPDATE:

    I'm upgrading the car to a flat A. For the money, anyway.

    My personal definition of a "decent" track car on Summit Main is 1:30 repeatable, without taking risks of an off and without being a great driver. I am a mediocre track driver.

    Over the winter, I dumped the stock mid-pipe/cats and muffler, and welded in something that breathes fully. I also put on a 3.23 LSD and a bigger set of calipers and rotors. Those changes let me pick up 2-3 MPH in every section. Car went from turning 1:32-35 laps at Summit Main to doing 1:30-32 laps. With a little more tweaking on the suspension setup and the brakes, it should be a steady 1:29 car for a driver like me.

    We got some test time in last week. Here is a video with a sound check on the new exhaust, and a "hot lap." Although the way I drive it's more like a warm lap.

    Link to video - click here if it doesn't load below: https://youtu.be/YQ4gkg6yVbE

    Last edited by JBasham; 04-25-2018 at 12:37 PM.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    My season is wrapped up as of two weekends ago.

    I'm still loving the new brakes and the LSD. The new exhaust worked out fine, no trouble.

    I upped the spring rates to about the max the dampers can comfortably handle, and damn that helps in the corners.

    The power-on motor stumbles I was getting on track (but not on road) turned out to be a flaky stock MAF that I accidentally destroyed when I was sawing the hood for vents. That's a lucky accident, because I never would've thought to switch out the MAF.

    Track staff and the other guys in the paddock have been interested in the car. I wasn't sure how people would feel about it, but it seems to be fine. I've had instructors in the passenger seat a lot because I'm working on my DI credentials, and nobody has been nervous about riding in it. That wasn't always the case when they first get in my E21/M20B25 swap.

    I have finally worn out my shortblock. At about 5K rpm it starts making a fine oil spray out the dipstick tube from ring blow-by. Compression numbers are good, the engine has plenty of power, and the PO re-ringed it when he was in there doing all the bearings. He didn't machine the block, though. So I think the rings can't hang at high RPMs with irregularities in the cylinders. Tried every trick known to man except a vac pump to vent the pressure, but it's just not helping.

    That might be the reason my oil temps climbed so hard over 4K rpms.

    Looks like I'll be putting the used top-end stuff I've been collecting on a fresh short block. Might as well go with a 347, I guess. That violates my project objective of cheap-as-reliably-possible. But it's turning out to be a sweet platform in my mind so I don't mind paying up a little for more speed. Wonder if it will run at the front?

    I bought the Moates piggyback programmer for the EEC-IV box and I really like it. It's fiddly to do your own tuning but I figured I might as well tune this motor on its way out as a learning tool. $250 for the chip and it uses the EEC-IV box and wiring. Plus an AFR gauge, but that's unavoidable whatever I use to tune. Software is free and runs on even a slow laptop just fine. It's a nice package for me because I didn't want to mess with re-wiring, and mega/micro squirt is a bit more costly. I would do it again.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
    My season is wrapped up as of two weekends ago.

    I'm still loving the new brakes and the LSD. The new exhaust worked out fine, no trouble.

    I upped the spring rates to about the max the dampers can comfortably handle, and damn that helps in the corners.

    The power-on motor stumbles I was getting on track (but not on road) turned out to be a flaky stock MAF that I accidentally destroyed when I was sawing the hood for vents. That's a lucky accident, because I never would've thought to switch out the MAF.

    Track staff and the other guys in the paddock have been interested in the car. I wasn't sure how people would feel about it, but it seems to be fine. I've had instructors in the passenger seat a lot because I'm working on my DI credentials, and nobody has been nervous about riding in it. That wasn't always the case when they first get in my E21/M20B25 swap.

    I have finally worn out my shortblock. At about 5K rpm it starts making a fine oil spray out the dipstick tube from ring blow-by. Compression numbers are good, the engine has plenty of power, and the PO re-ringed it when he was in there doing all the bearings. He didn't machine the block, though. So I think the rings can't hang at high RPMs with irregularities in the cylinders. Tried every trick known to man except a vac pump to vent the pressure, but it's just not helping.

    That might be the reason my oil temps climbed so hard over 4K rpms.

    Looks like I'll be putting the used top-end stuff I've been collecting on a fresh short block. Might as well go with a 347, I guess. That violates my project objective of cheap-as-reliably-possible. But it's turning out to be a sweet platform in my mind so I don't mind paying up a little for more speed. Wonder if it will run at the front?

    I bought the Moates piggyback programmer for the EEC-IV box and I really like it. It's fiddly to do your own tuning but I figured I might as well tune this motor on its way out as a learning tool. $250 for the chip and it uses the EEC-IV box and wiring. Plus an AFR gauge, but that's unavoidable whatever I use to tune. Software is free and runs on even a slow laptop just fine. It's a nice package for me because I didn't want to mess with re-wiring, and mega/micro squirt is a bit more costly. I would do it again.
    Thanks for posting up. in the planning stages of an LSx swap on my 325i for DD/HPDE track duty. Currently i have an integra thats plenty of fun on the track just wanting something more.

    Based on your "B" rating now how would you have rated a stock e36? have you tracked anything else for comparison?

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