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Thread: E36 Roll Bar

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by OCRentAPopo View Post
    I drive my fully caged E36 to and from events without a helmet -- sometimes over 5 hours each way. I will accept forum flaming, now.
    As long as you understand the risks and have made a conscientious decision to take that risk, I see no issue with this.

    I'd only be wary about taking passengers or allowing others to drive the car.

  2. #27
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    I honestly think it's safer than driving a non-caged car -- especially a non caged older car where intrusion into the passenger compartment is pretty common in collisions. My doorbars, dashbar, and foot protection should keep the passenger compartment mostly intact in a collision. And the 6-points will keep me mostly in place during a crash, though I admit they're not race-tight when I'm driving on the street. For my size, in my car, with my cage, I think the risk of hitting my head is pretty low -- at least not high enough to offset the positive net effect on safety of the rollcage and 6-point belts.

  3. #28
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    No it's not better than a pool noodle. The SFI testing standard uses the Gatt Index, even though the world has moved on to HIC. SFI sets the standard at 1250 Gatt. The Gatt standard for serious injury is 1,000 or higher. SFI allows 25% over and above that, because they know people wear Snell-certified crash helmets in a race.

    I never tell anybody what they should do in terms of safety equipment, and I think people that drive fully caged cars around 7 days a week are great guys and I look forward to meeting them any time, any place.

    But there's a bunch of CW circulating on the forums about what's safe and what's not, and it's wrong. When asked, a safety expert will tell you an HPDE car that's going to be driven on the street is safer, both on the street and on the track, if there's a safety-tested harness bar installed instead of a roll bar. And if it's used with a safety-tested four point harness and the factory seat that harness is tested for, without a HANS, that's no more dangerous than a 3 point.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

  4. #29
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    please dont run 5pt without a roll bar. I really shouldn't have to explain why...
    1994 325is RIP
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  5. #30
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    What safety expert says a harness bar is better than a rollbar?
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    What safety expert says a harness bar is better than a rollbar?
    The ones that work for the company which sell said harness bars??

  7. #32
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    This conversation took a bit of a turn...

    Agree with the sentiment to maximize safety first. That being said, what this thread is keying in on is the fact that there are varying levels of risk tolerance and education. I have friends who think they can truly safely pull long enclosed trailers with a standard size SUV for example. They also have no problem taking their non-modified 911 Turbo/Turbo S cars up to high 150s on track wearing a seat belt and no HANS/etc.

    I have access to a trailer and have absolutely zero intention of street driving the car other than to do a few quick shakedown tests and possibly drive it to the shop a few miles away. My current budget does not allow for me to go all the way to where I want to go (e.g., full cage, proper harnesses, fire suit, fire suppression, battery cut off, etc...) so I have to make a short term compromise. The kirk bar will get me on track for a few sessions to shake down the car while I can get a few of the things that will eventually be needed. I'm not spending the "savings" from a full cage on "go fast" parts; it's going to to go get the car running and start picking up the rest of the safety gear I need. I also believe I can dump the bar pretty quickly as the last one I had sold in a day (whoops!).

  8. #33
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    No conflict of interest there!

    As far as towing, my Cayenne easily pulls my featherlite open trailer, I've had friends with Cayenne pull 24' enclosed trailers with no issues....
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tripitz View Post
    I also believe I can dump the bar pretty quickly as the last one I had sold in a day (whoops!).
    When you're done with that bar, shoot me a PM and I'll drive dow to NJ and buy it from you.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWyte View Post
    No conflict of interest there!

    As far as towing, my Cayenne easily pulls my featherlite open trailer, I've had friends with Cayenne pull 24' enclosed trailers with no issues....
    See.. this is *exactly* what I am referring to. I also have a Cayenne and I see many Cayenne owners do it. Is it smart to pull a 24" enclosed with a Cayenne? Not really, unless it is that one aluminum one with the low ceilings that weighs nothing and also costs $24k new. The wheelbase on the Cayenne is pretty short and pulling a long trailer can get you into big trouble pretty quickly in the right conditions. It's kind of like track driving; everything okay 99% of that time. When I was speccing trailers most of them did not want to go above 20" for a custom aluminum. It was also super easy to get over the max tongue weight once you throw in tools, etc.

  11. #36
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBasham View Post
    DocWhite, you like the SFI padding for protecting an unhelmeted head if it hits a roll bar in a crash? Because that's not much more protection than a plastic Jesus on the dashboard.
    Compared to original equipment padding over hard structures of a car's interior (dash, A and B pillars, etc.) I don't see why SFI padding should be rejected out of hand. There's already enormous variation in stock protection, for instance side curtain airbags or none. The main thing is to take an inclusive view regarding which roll bar/cage elements an occupant might come into contact with in a crash and pad them accordingly.

    This applies both to driving to and on the track. I'm repeatedly astonished at the unpadded tubing runs seen in caged student cars in which instructors are expected to ride. Our Chapter has disallowed cars from running until additional SFI padding is installed.

    Quote Originally Posted by testify View Post
    As long as you understand the risks and have made a conscientious decision to take that risk, I see no issue with this.
    ^^^
    This

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 10-04-2017 at 09:44 AM.

  12. #37
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    tripitz, much more to towing that just the wheelbase of the vehicle....
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  13. #38
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    Fair is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
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    Quote Originally Posted by testify View Post
    Do not use a harness bar if you have any sense of self preservation.


    I second that. A harness bar, especially the simple straight bar options I see all too often, are not safe for track use. These are only appropriate for use in AUTOCROSS, where you run at low speeds and the worst thing you can hit is a traffic cone. I had a harness bar in my E36 for autocross use back in the day, then built a proper cage and sold it to another autocrosser about 8 years ago.



    Fast forward to a couple of months ago, when he was running on track and crashed. And the harness bar buckled and ripped out of the two little mounts. His shoulder harnesses then were WORTHLESS, his face hit the steering wheel, and his OPEN HELMET allowed his nose to be shattered.

    So prepare to get hurt if something goes wrong... and since the OP already crashed one car, maybe that was the wake up call he needed?

    Its nearly impossible to turn a 4-point roll bar into a cage, but they are cheap enough and require only a little welding (genrally to weld the rear downbars in place - they flat pack these things for shipment). You can then unbolt and sell the roll bar once you decide to cage it.



    This 4-point bolt-in roll bar from Kirk Racing is a good start, like the one in an E46 sedan shown above. There are many other options, and they all tend to be around $500 or less. This is cheap insurance for rollovers and a much more secure way to mount your shoulder belts!



    http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8384

    Building a 6-point roll CAGE is a whole different kettle of fish - and takes about triple the time to build compared to even a custom 4-point. The forum post linked above explains how we build cages and why they cost what they do....

    Cheers,
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

  14. #39
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    Totally agree with Terry....
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  15. #40
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    Terry is correct and I did break my nose on a crash recently with that harness bar. I did however have a full face helmet on and was not completely free as it hit the back of the seat. I told myself this was the last event on the track before I put my kirk bolt in roll bar. Mechanical failures or driver error can happen at anytime... Be safe! I would also recommend a neck restraint and if your instructing, the one you can wear on normal 3 point belts.

    20170827_123228.jpg20170827_123221.jpg
    Last edited by cledbetter; 10-11-2017 at 08:28 PM.
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  16. #41
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    By no means whatsoever go with a harness bar to the track, i thought this was heavily covered previously. If it were up to me id turn people away if they showed up with one to a HPDE event. A 4pt Kirk car is a good start. I went with an autopower 6pt since im not racing my car (yet) just doing track days. Comes with door bars and i can remove it whenever im ready for a cage. While in the meantime i feel a bit safer than a 4pt. It was about a $400 difference vs a 4pt.

  17. #42
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    Agree... no harness bar. Originally it was supposed to be for 1-2 days of easy checking out the car at the very end of the season. I opted for the Kirk as posted above; not sure how long I will keep it. I have a fair bit of other things that I'd like to invest in before the cost of the full cage so that's where my money is going to go (e.g., suit, fire extinguisher, battery disconnect) plus some things that I will need with a cage (e.g., removable wheel). I see myself getting the cage after a few check out events in the early season or at the end of next season at the latest. I just took a new job so my time is more limited than currently so not sure how much I will actually get out to drive next year. On the plus side the finances will improve and a cage will be more affordable than before.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by testify View Post
    When you're done with that bar, shoot me a PM and I'll drive dow to NJ and buy it from you.
    Sounds good! Some time next season for sure.

  18. #43
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    Christopher, I'm truly sorry to hear about your experience. Terrible luck.

    Should we now pivot to the internet threads that say a bolt-in 4-point road car is another plastic Jesus, because of a photo of a flattened Mustang? This topic + the internet might as well be a discussion about climate change. You pays your money and you makes your choice. Short of full-time 100% compliance with something like the F1 or NASCAR standards, these approaches are all based on expected occupant protection rather than established occupant protection. I've seen photos of a car with a great cage that got doored hard and crippled the driver, and I've seen cars with fire suppression systems that burned to a shell on track. I have a friend who got in a low-speed rear ender in a late-model Camaro and almost burned to death. The only reason I wade in to the topic is to inject some information about engineering standards and the intended use of certain products. A consumer with more information is always in a better position to evaluate the trade-offs.

    The only harness bars I would let my kids use are engineered and certified to SAE J 383, 384, 385 and their progeny. Same as stock seat belts on a new car. And a crash-tested ASM four point with the DOT sticker on it. As for me, I don't use them. But I do barrel along at 125mph on brake lines I fabricated and installed myself, so . . . .

    I finally found the requested material paraphrasing the thoughts of a few auto safety experts on the whole SAE-spec harness bar vs. roll bar on cars that will also see street time. Slide 34, near the end. It's a little vague. https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/TechTactics.pdf
    Last edited by JBasham; 03-26-2018 at 11:07 AM.
    If God meant for man to motor-swap LS engines into track cars, He wouldn't have created Corvettes.

  19. #44
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    As someone who has worked in the racing safety industry for several years, I can tell you without question a few things. *Most* Harness bars are not safe/able to handle the loads of a heavy impact at a race track. The loads are THOUSANDS of pounds of force. Therefore, I will never advocate their use on track, and many sanctioning bodies agree with my opinion. Also, after losing an employee in a street crash (FC Rx7, back in 2001 in Atlanta) due to his head hitting the FULL cage installed in his car while he was doing hi-boost pulls in an industrial park, I can tell you that running a FULL cage is never a good idea on the street without a helmet/Harness. Running a roll bar in the back is a calculated risk without a helmet. The body moves so much in a crash that what you think (rollbar) is a foot behind your head/out of the way, can actually deal you a deathblow. By the way, most of the SFI roll bar padding is designed for HELMET contact, not skull contact so keep that in mind as well. I'd never drive my Chumpcar on the street as the risks are higher from the car hurting me than other drivers.
    Ken

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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quicker10u View Post
    As someone who has worked in the racing safety industry for several years, I can tell you without question a few things. *Most* Harness bars are not safe/able to handle the loads of a heavy impact at a race track. The loads are THOUSANDS of pounds of force. Therefore, I will never advocate their use on track, and many sanctioning bodies agree with my opinion. Also, after losing an employee in a street crash (FC Rx7, back in 2001 in Atlanta) due to his head hitting the FULL cage installed in his car while he was doing hi-boost pulls in an industrial park, I can tell you that running a FULL cage is never a good idea on the street without a helmet/Harness. Running a roll bar in the back is a calculated risk without a helmet. The body moves so much in a crash that what you think (rollbar) is a foot behind your head/out of the way, can actually deal you a deathblow. By the way, most of the SFI roll bar padding is designed for HELMET contact, not skull contact so keep that in mind as well. I'd never drive my Chumpcar on the street as the risks are higher from the car hurting me than other drivers.
    All really good points! Sorry for the loss of an employee like that. I've heard a few stories about this.

    As for road use, while the car is currently insured and road legal, I have access to a trailer and intend to never drive the car on the road other than a quick test. If I put a full cage in, I will, for sure, take it off of the road (may do it sooner than that). I am actually a risk averse person, so it pains me somewhat to invest in the roll bar instead of a cage. I am only justifying it because I will still be investing in other necessary safety items in the near term. Cage is above all other "performance" wish list items.

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