Why am I not making power?

[Boostedhoopty]

My setup is a basically stock m52 shortblock with a .140" gasket, arp's, m50nv head with schrick 264/256 cams, obx tubular t3 manifold, billet pte 6266 with a 44mm gate, open 3" dp, m50 intake, obd1 411 ecu miller war maf and chip, 93 octane pump gas with 50/50 water meth (aem progressive with whatever nozzles they called for "20+ psi, 600hp"). Boost is currently about 23-24psi but has seen 27psi or so a few times when I had the car out for street car takeover.

The biggest problem is that I pretty consistently keep cracking ringlands. The first time I chalked it up to too much rev limiter action and the 27psi. This time around, I have raised the limiter and been much more cautious to avoid it. I had just pulled the exhaust back off in preparation to go race a zl1 about 45 minutes from me and due to being in a hurry, I tried to get the air fuel dialed back in on the way there. At one point it did lean out to 13.0 or so for probably 500rpm, but I'm thinking that may have been enough to do it because as soon as we got to town it was obvious that it was hurt.

The other issue is that I don't feel like it making the power it should. I feel that it should be making 600whp or so and it definitely doesn't feel that strong. The last setup I had in the car was an m50 with stock cams and a gt35r with a .63 hotside and straight pump gas on 25-26psi, and it honestly feels very similar to that. That setup trapped 117mph in the 1/4 with a 2.8 second 60' in a 3100lb car, so it ran pretty well for what it was and used a lot of the same parts.

I am concerned that maybe my timing map is a little aggressive and maybe causing both issues, but it is the base timing map sent from miller. I figured it should be pretty safe, especially with water meth. Also, when I had the old setup at the track, this timing map made the car pick up just over 10mph trap. The map prior was about 2* lower in the peak torque region and 6* lower around 7k rpm

I have been messing around tuning all of my junk for years, but I definitely still feel like a noob haha. I am very open to any ideas or suugestions. TIMING MAP ATTACHED!

[Butters Stoch]

My suggestion is to keep it under 23# on 93+meth.

Get rid of the Miller tune and get either a NickG , TRM or 22rpd tune or buy the MSpnp

117mph in a 3100# car is more like a 400 something whp car.

Maybe a direct port meth system might be better to ensure you keep #1 and #6 cool. Or switch to race gas, but $14/gallon sucks.

[Boostedhoopty]

My suggestion is to keep it under 23# on 93+meth.

Get rid of the Miller tune and get either a NickG , TRM or 22rpd tune

117mph in a 3100# car is more like a 400 something whp car.

Maybe a direct port meth system might be better to ensure you keep #1 and #6 cool. Or switch to race gas, but $14/gallon sucks.

Yeah, I completely agree that would make for a 400-450whp car and I suppose that's what I was trying to say. This should be making 200hp more and not feel similar at all. Based on the last setup picking up 10mph from the timing change I'm reluctant to pull any timing out especially now that I am on meth with a much better flowing head and hotside

[chikinhed]

That is too much boost for the fuel you are using regardless of your timing. Detonation will kill the ring lands or crack the head if the head gasket doesn't pop first.

The other possible cause could be the ring end gap is too tight for the heat.

[Boostedhoopty]

I am really considering getting rid of the miller stuff and going megasquirt and e85, but I feel like this setup should be able to atleast work better than it is.

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That is too much boost for the fuel you are using regardless of your timing. Detonation will kill the ring lands or crack the head if the head gasket doesn't pop first.

The other possible cause could be the ring end gap is too tight for the heat.

You really don't think I should be able to run 24psi from a 6266 with 93 and meth? I hear what you are saying but I just didn't think that was really pushing it hard

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Rings are factory from the junkyard engine, but measured .017"

[chikinhed]

You said that you were at 27 psi which is too much. 24-25 psi would be pushing the limits of the fuel IMHO.

If e85 is available then definitely switch and enjoy much more boost.

[Boostedhoopty]

You said that you were at 27 psi which is too much. 24-25 psi would be pushing the limits of the fuel IMHO.

If e85 is available then definitely switch and enjoy much more boost.

Nope, currently 23-24 but has seen 27. I could see where 27 is definitely pushing it though. Regardless of boost pressure, the car isn't making any power and I've seen very similar setups make almost 600whp on a spa manifold and through a full exhaust on only 21psj. I want to know what is keeping me from doing the same! This car is a turd no matter the boost level haha.

The e36 that I built before this and pulled these parts out of was on e85 and ran great, without a single hard part failure. I just switched back to pump and meth due to availability and this thing being a street car

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[Boostedhoopty]

Nope, currently 23-24 but has seen 27. I could see where 27 is definitely pushing it though. Regardless of boost pressure, the car isn't making any power and I've seen very similar setups make almost 600whp on a spa manifold and through a full exhaust on only 21psj. I want to know what is keeping me from doing the same! This car is a turd no matter the boost level haha.

The e36 that I built before this and pulled these parts out of was on e85 and ran great, without a single hard part failure. I just switched back to pump and meth due to availability and this thing being a street car

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https://youtu.be/eNWiJWMe7NE

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[Boostedhoopty]

I also feel like the boost pressure you can get away with before seeing knock has a lot of factors that play into it. How well the exhaust flows, compression ratio, cam profile, etc. I don't disagree that there comes a time where it becomes inefficient to turn it up anymore but surely with proper air fuel and ignition timing this thing should live and make solid power at my boost level

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[milKt]

Subscribed.

[familyMAN]

Widen up the ring gap. Don't run lean on pump on stock pistons. Take timing out. Or keep doing what you are doing and keep breaking parts.

Better choice is widen gap. Run e85. Take timing out. CRANK the boost.

[Boostedhoopty]

I don't know how much looser of a ring gap I would want! Does anybody have any comparable timing maps? I am defiinitely considering the e85 thing. It would be a no brainer if it had an ethanol content sensor, which I guess is just another reason to go ms pnp as well I just wish I knew the cause of my lack of power. I have double checked cam timing, compression was good before this recent failure. I tried disconnecting the vanos solenoid to make sure it wasn't keeping the cam timing advanced. I've played with air fuel ratios from mid 10's-12.0 and couldn't tell a performance difference.

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[NOTORIOUS VR]

Not for nothing, but your OP reads like you have a solid hardware base but an absolutely horrible tuning base and that setup should easily net over 600 whp without a doubt under your current boost level of 23-24psi....

To me it's obvious you have a tuning issue. Also your timing table means nothing to us without being able to reference load and see a curve (ie. a log).

IMO you need to ditch that Miller setup and go with someone who properly knows how to calibrate the stock ECU or if you want to tune yourself go with a stand alone setup and learn.

[someguy2800]

Just to put things into perspective I trap 149 @ 28 lbs and like 142 @ 24 or so with my 2.8 in a 2900 lb car with driver so you are way way way off the mark. The two things I would check first are that the cams are timed properly (I mean that the lobe centers on the cams are right, not just the timing blocks), and that the ignition timing is actually in the ballpark. Sounds to me like the ignition timing is way retarded.

[Def]

I am really considering getting rid of the miller stuff and going megasquirt and e85, but I feel like this setup should be able to atleast work better than it is.

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You really don't think I should be able to run 24psi from a 6266 with 93 and meth? I hear what you are saying but I just didn't think that was really pushing it hard

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Rings are factory from the junkyard engine, but measured .017"

Honestly, going standalone is the best thing you can do for a setup pushing things that much. It's too much for a remote tune to run on the ragged edge reliably AND make good power when pushing your fuel setup that much.

With a standalone you'll know what's going on with your engine, and you'll have complete control on giving it what it wants.

[Boostedhoopty]

That's what I wanted to hear. I was starting to think I was crazy for expecting way more out of this setup. I definitely do need to take the time to degree the cams, I just assumed with them being so common and generally just installed straight up that I would be fine.

I plan on swapping this stuff into a nice e30 325is that I've had sitting around for years so while it's all apart, I will just go ahead and go ms pnp and e85 fuel system to get the most out of my setup.

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[DunDunSkeert]

I would hypothesize that your issue is all with the tuning. I have a miller chip with a 62mm turbo making 380whp at 12pds. I trapped 120mph with this setup with a 2.3 60ft. This is after I made quite a few changes to get the fueling where I wanted it. I'm stuck with 91 so I can't run very much timing but the guys I know running a rk or 22rpd chip always make substantially more power on similar setups. I'll be going with an AEM infinity soon and am hoping for large improvements.

[Boostedhoopty]

Honestly, going standalone is the best thing you can do for a setup pushing things that much. It's too much for a remote tune to run on the ragged edge reliably AND make good power when pushing your fuel setup that much.

With a standalone you'll know what's going on with your engine, and you'll have complete control on giving it what it wants.

Just to be clear, this is not a remote tune. I did start with his base map but everything after that has been my doing so I can't blame him really. It is frustrating not being able to log and to make matters worse I don't have a tach in the car, so it is pretty much a guessing game haha

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[Def]

Just to be clear, this is not a remote tune. I did start with his base map but everything after that has been my doing so I can't blame him really. It is frustrating not being able to log and to make matters worse I don't have a tach in the car, so it is pretty much a guessing game haha

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I see. It's still tough to ROM tune a car, and takes A LOT more time than a standalone to dial things in due to the lack of detailed logs.

A tach is cheap - install one.

[Boostedhoopty]

I see. It's still tough to ROM tune a car, and takes A LOT more time than a standalone to dial things in due to the lack of detailed logs.

A tach is cheap - install one.

I have one that I considered putting in the glove box or something. I just didn't want obvious gauges in the interior..dumb, I know

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[NOTORIOUS VR]

Wait, you can't log? like at all? If that is true, throw that stuff in the garbage. Tuning non-live ECU's without logging is something of the dark ages.

[Boostedhoopty]

Correct. Talk about a pain the ass. Trying to flash tune a car that you can't log that doesn't have a tach. It's pretty much a guessing game

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[milKt]

Imagine all the ringlands you could afford by running a real tune.

[Boostedhoopty]

Haha, true story! Makes it lot easier to justify

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