Turbo e30 street car

[euro2fast4u]

https://youtu.be/MMb_OGpPwnA

There was one long pull but I ended up messing with a mustang and forgot what I was trying to do. The results are not consistent enough yet.

Notorious, I agreed however I believe I am below the flow rate of the pump, I need to regraph the pump curves to make everything relative. What I'm trying to say is I have excessive pump for what I'm flowing even at that pressure.

[NOTORIOUS VR]

Notorious, I agreed however I believe I am below the flow rate of the pump, I need to regraph the pump curves to make everything relative. What I'm trying to say is I have excessive pump for what I'm flowing even at that pressure.

That might be so for now as said, it works until it doesn't - also have you thought about what happens when one of your injectors doesn't open correctly due to the high pressure you're running?

It's not uncommon for older injectors to have issues opening with such high base pressures holding the pintle down in case you weren't aware.

[hsvturbo]

You could add a Hobbs pressure switch and fuel nozzle/valve pre &/or post-throttle body that supplements your current injectors.
the benefits would be allowing you to turn the base FUel pressure down & provide some evaporative cooling for your large aluminum Intake manifold. Just throwing out something I did way back when that had some very good results running e85 on my m10.

[Kevin325i]

So in this case 80 psi with vacuum and making the math simple gets you to a base pressure of 90psi.

With a 20 psi manifold pressure and 110psi of pressure in the rail you're riding the pressure relief valve in the higher pressure walbro 450 pumps. Add in a little bit of losses in the lines which is very likely and you're spiraling out of control.



Now onto the next part of the system. Most commercially available injectors are designed around a maximum working pressure of 100 psi. Some have success higher. After that, as Notorious mentioned, you start to have problems controlling the pintle, bouncing mostly. You also run into issues before that with inconsistent shots of fuel at low pulsewidths because you don't get proper seating where the injector seats and leaks.



https://treperformance.com/i-2390008...0158040-6.html

Those are 400 dollars and need adapters. How low are you trying to go on cost?

[euro2fast4u]

So in this case 80 psi with vacuum and making the math simple gets you to a base pressure of 90psi.

With a 20 psi manifold pressure and 110psi of pressure in the rail you're riding the pressure relief valve in the higher pressure walbro 450 pumps. Add in a little bit of losses in the lines which is very likely and you're spiraling out of control.



Now onto the next part of the system. Most commercially available injectors are designed around a maximum working pressure of 100 psi. Some have success higher. After that, as Notorious mentioned, you start to have problems controlling the pintle, bouncing mostly. You also run into issues before that with inconsistent shots of fuel at low pulsewidths because you don't get proper seating where the injector seats and leaks.



https://treperformance.com/i-2390008...0158040-6.html

Those are 400 dollars and need adapters. How low are you trying to go on cost?

That's correct, if you think about it i'm already riding the pressure relief at the lower pressure. I came up and videoed the same 108/110 psi pressure. Though around 6k i think it tends to bounce some. I got two distracted and screwing around to realize the video was going to be usefull. Regardless, numerous street pulls through top of 4th (2.79lsd). 20-30 high way pulls so far.

I basically upped the fuel pressure until the ecu/injectors couldn't idle at a stable rate any more then backed it down. They could not handle 90 psi at idle and the idle would begin to hunt.

So far so good, the injectors seem to handle it ok, pumps have not died yet.

injectors are stock evo 9 mr 560cc injectors cleaned and flow tested to 600cc.

Only issue ive ran into over the last few weeks is my alternator is dieing quicker then anticipated. I did a voltage modification to it to get 14.7 to 14.9v out of it, im now down to 13.5v. And after idling for a period of time it drops down to 11 (three lights in a row). Im not sure if that will fail at the store for a replacement but once it gets below 12v at normal idle ill yank it and get it tested.

Yes for some reason, i would rather spend 2k on an aim mxs datalogger then 400 on injectors, im broken i know. Looking to get this next to record the pressures, temps, so forth.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...8aAphTEALw_wcB

then we can determine whats happening with the pressure at various points.

Also looking at new seats and roll/seat belt bar for that car. Im moving too much in the seat during track days. What are you guys using? I really want the 2019 m4 seats but i dont think they will fit.

[5mall5nail5]

What'd you do to get the voltage higher?

I don't like running the base pressure so high - as you said, it's so cheap (in the grand scheme) to just get larger injectors. And, with modern injectors, you don't have to give up reasonable idle characteristics.

Anywho - semi OT question(s) - I have an '87 325E I am fixing up. I had swapped an M50TU into it years ago (like 2011). Yours says '87 but has plastic bumpers, did you convert? I want to do that so bad. Also, my stock pumps (BOTH) are dead. I have 12v at the plug under the seat which based on schematics comes from the junction at the under-car pump, so it would see that there is voltage at both pumps but no pumpy when jumping the relay. I bought various stainless barbed fittings from McMaster and a Walbro 255. The wiring to the lift pump in the tank is kind of light, so I am going to cut it off and use both leads as +12v and then put a grounding lug through the lid of the hanger and ground the pump to that (and then to the chassis on the outside). I have a small lathe and a TIG welder so I am picturing turning down these 5/16" barbs as needed and TIG welding them to the 12mm ports on the hanger and using 5/16" hose in-tank and out. What'd you end up doing for actual fuel pump plumbing and power supply?

[euro2fast4u]

What'd you do to get the voltage higher?

I don't like running the base pressure so high - as you said, it's so cheap (in the grand scheme) to just get larger injectors. And, with modern injectors, you don't have to give up reasonable idle characteristics.

Anywho - semi OT question(s) - I have an '87 325E I am fixing up. I had swapped an M50TU into it years ago (like 2011). Yours says '87 but has plastic bumpers, did you convert? I want to do that so bad. Also, my stock pumps (BOTH) are dead. I have 12v at the plug under the seat which based on schematics comes from the junction at the under-car pump, so it would see that there is voltage at both pumps but no pumpy when jumping the relay. I bought various stainless barbed fittings from McMaster and a Walbro 255. The wiring to the lift pump in the tank is kind of light, so I am going to cut it off and use both leads as +12v and then put a grounding lug through the lid of the hanger and ground the pump to that (and then to the chassis on the outside). I have a small lathe and a TIG welder so I am picturing turning down these 5/16" barbs as needed and TIG welding them to the 12mm ports on the hanger and using 5/16" hose in-tank and out. What'd you end up doing for actual fuel pump plumbing and power supply?

Theres a diode trick that you can do to the regulator or something. I'll have to dig up the 5 series forum I think I found it on. I did it as I was out of spark from the stock ignition system at 17 pounds. From what I remember you add a diode inline of one of the ground straps on the regulator and bam, 2 more volts and gained a few more psi from the ignition system.

Im honestly looking at the id1050 id1350 id1700 and the id2200. These will be good for the next few engine swaps I have planned.

Yes mine is a 1987 355e, bumper swapped 10 years or so ago. I also built a removable core support for the future haha. It's not bad fitting but does require more finesse that i would like to spend on it one day.

As for the pump setup, I did the 450 in the tank. Modified the hanger and wiring. Built a dedicated relay and wiring for it in the trunk to get the 30 or 40 amps right from the battery. I used the oem pump +12v wire to trigger the relay. Get rid of the inline on on the rail and your good to go though I'm still running it with a 255. The 450 just barely fits. I have some photos of how tight it is somewhere in this thread.

[5mall5nail5]

Theres a diode trick that you can do to the regulator or something. I'll have to dig up the 5 series forum I think I found it on. I did it as I was out of spark from the stock ignition system at 17 pounds. From what I remember you add a diode inline of one of the ground straps on the regulator and bam, 2 more volts and gained a few more psi from the ignition system.

Im honestly looking at the id1050 id1350 id1700 and the id2200. These will be good for the next few engine swaps I have planned.

Yes mine is a 1987 355e, bumper swapped 10 years or so ago. I also built a removable core support for the future haha. It's not bad fitting but does require more finesse that i would like to spend on it one day.

As for the pump setup, I did the 450 in the tank. Modified the hanger and wiring. Built a dedicated relay and wiring for it in the trunk to get the 30 or 40 amps right from the battery. I used the oem pump +12v wire to trigger the relay. Get rid of the inline on on the rail and your good to go though I'm still running it with a 255. The 450 just barely fits. I have some photos of how tight it is somewhere in this thread.

Did you run to the stock wiring/harness at the hanger? Its so light gauge. I am planning on a dedicated relay triggered off stock ECU signal but using both terminals as +12v and a dedicated ground lug on the hanger. Such a PITA.

Thanks man.

[euro2fast4u]

Did you run to the stock wiring/harness at the hanger? Its so light gauge. I am planning on a dedicated relay triggered off stock ECU signal but using both terminals as +12v and a dedicated ground lug on the hanger. Such a PITA.

Thanks man.

Look at post 84. I grounded the pump to the hanger and ran the new wire up to the existing wire but made the connection close.

I dont have any photos of the top hat area. I'll see if I can snag a photo of the relay and wires in the trunk. I used two 12g wires in parallel as the voltage drop with just one was too much from my calculation.

- - - Updated - - -

So good luck came today. Just snagged the AiM MXS dash with logging and GPS. Should be here Friday. Just in time for the local drag strip. I raced a hellcat today from where he was we were dead even. I couldnt see him after I got the jump, he was in my blind spot.

[5mall5nail5]

Look at post 84. I grounded the pump to the hanger and ran the new wire up to the existing wire but made the connection close.

I dont have any photos of the top hat area. I'll see if I can snag a photo of the relay and wires in the trunk. I used two 12g wires in parallel as the voltage drop with just one was too much from my calculation.

- - - Updated - - -

So good luck came today. Just snagged the AiM MXS dash with logging and GPS. Should be here Friday. Just in time for the local drag strip. I raced a hellcat today from where he was we were dead even. I couldnt see him after I got the jump, he was in my blind spot.

Nice I am going to run a single Walbro 255, so I think a single 12 AWG run from a 30A relay with a 10 - 15A fuse, split to the two wires (positive and negative) right at the connector on the hanger should do it. Wow I did not realize the Walbro 450 draws like 20A on the pressure you're running - sheesh. I should only need 7 - 8A fortunately.

Thanks again

[euro2fast4u]

Yea it's a good amount, and I have another volt or two on top if it.

[5mall5nail5]

Yea it's a good amount, and I have another volt or two on top if it.

In my other car I am running an Aeromotive A1000 w/ 10 or 12 gauge wire to it... ugh, headaches.

[5mall5nail5]

Sorry to bump OP, but thought you may be semi interested - this is how I did it:



I totally brainfarted and forgot there'd only be one wire in the tank, so my double +12v won't work. I soldered the ~12-14 AWG from the pump right to the lug inside the tank, the pin thickness on the connector should easily take the 6 - 7 amps I will draw, especially if you're running a 450 in there with much higher amperage draw.

I machined the 304L fittings you see in the pic above and cut the tube down so that it was almost press fit in - I left myself a little step to provide a nice fillet area for the weld, and TIG'd it together. I did this on the inside and outside so it's 5/16" on both sides and got myself a 5/16" gates submersible fuel line for in the tank.

[euro2fast4u]

Sorry to bump OP, but thought you may be semi interested - this is how I did it:



I totally brainfarted and forgot there'd only be one wire in the tank, so my double +12v won't work. I soldered the ~12-14 AWG from the pump right to the lug inside the tank, the pin thickness on the connector should easily take the 6 - 7 amps I will draw, especially if you're running a 450 in there with much higher amperage draw.

I machined the 304L fittings you see in the pic above and cut the tube down so that it was almost press fit in - I left myself a little step to provide a nice fillet area for the weld, and TIG'd it together. I did this on the inside and outside so it's 5/16" on both sides and got myself a 5/16" gates submersible fuel line for in the tank.

Yup that makes sense. I stuck with the oem metal fitting bc the diameter looked good and comparable to the size i needed. regardless i think you got the jist of it and should work well.

So went to the track Friday. Powers there, but my 60 foot and reviewing the aim data my 330 foot need some work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCh_...el=euro2fast4u

As the night went on my 60 foot got worse.

118785503_232425931504034_2275203557392715212_n.jpg118957827_959961274486974_3710536788283357495_n.jpg118799021_3261143443975981_7618940156506183754_n.jpg


My drag radials got a nail in it so i decided to run my r888's. With that said, im thinking of going to a set of slicks. However i dont understand the sizes at all.

[euro2fast4u]

Welp injectors are offically maxed out at 25psi.

https://youtu.be/xSlByxMkFnA

Little shaky shaky

[euro2fast4u]

Dyno is schedule for next weekend on Saturday, did some final pulls today since i just changed to two fuel tables.

E85 finally broke down the stock fuel tank vent line. Trying to order that for next week.
Also my fuse holder for the fuel pump is not able to support the load. Starting to melt the fuse. Just ordered a 8 gauge holder and some new wire for the first foot of my system.

Lastly, my slave finally let go. Starting to drip. Just ordered one. Hope this stuff all arrives before next week. pretty typical for me, schedule dyno time, once over the car then a few things break.

Also you guys think 2 hours is enough for rental for the dyno? i really only wanna check boost and power levels from min to max boost (5psi, 10, 15, 20, 24). Also verify timing is ideal. How much fuel should i bring with me?

[5mall5nail5]

Dyno is schedule for next weekend on Saturday, did some final pulls today since i just changed to two fuel tables.

E85 finally broke down the stock fuel tank vent line. Trying to order that for next week.
Also my fuse holder for the fuel pump is not able to support the load. Starting to melt the fuse. Just ordered a 8 gauge holder and some new wire for the first foot of my system.

Lastly, my slave finally let go. Starting to drip. Just ordered one. Hope this stuff all arrives before next week. pretty typical for me, schedule dyno time, once over the car then a few things break.

Also you guys think 2 hours is enough for rental for the dyno? i really only wanna check boost and power levels from min to max boost (5psi, 10, 15, 20, 24). Also verify timing is ideal. How much fuel should i bring with me?

IMHO 2 hours is not enough. Assuming nothing breaks, leaks, gives you a headache, just getting the car tied down takes a while. A while back I rented a dyno with Multiplex here on the forum - by time we got his car working properly, then off, then my car on, we only did a couple pulls. It worked out because my clutch was slipping (completely) anyway, but still, it was rushed.

[Kevin325i]

Go for 4 hours. Maybe a little less if it's an in ground unit and you've tied you're car down on a dyno before.

Also write out a detailed plan so you minimize your down time.

Even with a plan you can waste a lot of time troubleshooting the dyno and the car. Getting a reliable tach signal is harder than it should be most times. Use the dyno as a tool and don't waste the time trying to get everything set up so you can get actual numbers.

Take a flash drive to put the files on and post process the torque output the dyno will give to get your power numbers.

[euro2fast4u]

Go for 4 hours. Maybe a little less if it's an in ground unit and you've tied you're car down on a dyno before.

Also write out a detailed plan so you minimize your down time.

Even with a plan you can waste a lot of time troubleshooting the dyno and the car. Getting a reliable tach signal is harder than it should be most times. Use the dyno as a tool and don't waste the time trying to get everything set up so you can get actual numbers.

Take a flash drive to put the files on and post process the torque output the dyno will give to get your power numbers.

IMHO 2 hours is not enough. Assuming nothing breaks, leaks, gives you a headache, just getting the car tied down takes a while. A while back I rented a dyno with Multiplex here on the forum - by time we got his car working properly, then off, then my car on, we only did a couple pulls. It worked out because my clutch was slipping (completely) anyway, but still, it was rushed.

I want to thank you both, unfortunately, with personal events going on in the after noon ill be stuck with 2 hours this time. However, I've taken your thoughts and have been working on a plan to make it as efficient as possible. I've am also giving the car a once over and found a few things that I am glad I caught. The fuel vent line finally gave up to the e85, which is also one of the worse jobs to do on an e30. my 455lph in tank fuse holder was melting the one lead of the fuse. Replaced with a higher amperage holder, and a lower fuse. Any my slave went out last week. Hope to have these wrapped up and ready for Saturday. This is all typical for me trying to get on a dyno.

With the m20, would I be able to use the number 1 cylinder for rpm? could I use the tach output from the mega squirt to the dyno? I will be talking with them tomorrow to ensure i don't need to bring anything. What do i need to do with wasted spark? Is it worth adjusting the tach output of ms to the dyno to get that to output correctly. If it takes more then 15 minutes, ill abandon and get to completing pulls.

What's the typical wait time between pulls? What's the typical reason for waiting between pulls? Current plan is 30 minutes for low boost pulls, tuning, verifying timing, 30 minutes for medium boost and 45 minutes for high boost. Given its pretty well street tuned, I was figuring i would be focusing on the timing map mostly.

What IAT do you guys watch out for? I did a very long street pull and peaked around 200. This was after a few back to back pulls. in 85 degree weather.

What are some things I should keep my eye on?

Each boost level my plan was to complete a pull, add timing (1-2 degrees), complete a second pull. Verify power increase, verify knock was not detected fueling was ok, let IAT cool down then repeat within my given time allowance?

Thoughts and opinions always welcomed.

[5mall5nail5]

I want to thank you both, unfortunately, with personal events going on in the after noon ill be stuck with 2 hours this time. However, I've taken your thoughts and have been working on a plan to make it as efficient as possible. I've am also giving the car a once over and found a few things that I am glad I caught. The fuel vent line finally gave up to the e85, which is also one of the worse jobs to do on an e30. my 455lph in tank fuse holder was melting the one lead of the fuse. Replaced with a higher amperage holder, and a lower fuse. Any my slave went out last week. Hope to have these wrapped up and ready for Saturday. This is all typical for me trying to get on a dyno.

With the m20, would I be able to use the number 1 cylinder for rpm? could I use the tach output from the mega squirt to the dyno? I will be talking with them tomorrow to ensure i don't need to bring anything. What do i need to do with wasted spark? Is it worth adjusting the tach output of ms to the dyno to get that to output correctly. If it takes more then 15 minutes, ill abandon and get to completing pulls.

What's the typical wait time between pulls? What's the typical reason for waiting between pulls? Current plan is 30 minutes for low boost pulls, tuning, verifying timing, 30 minutes for medium boost and 45 minutes for high boost. Given its pretty well street tuned, I was figuring i would be focusing on the timing map mostly.

What IAT do you guys watch out for? I did a very long street pull and peaked around 200. This was after a few back to back pulls. in 85 degree weather.

What are some things I should keep my eye on?

Each boost level my plan was to complete a pull, add timing (1-2 degrees), complete a second pull. Verify power increase, verify knock was not detected fueling was ok, let IAT cool down then repeat within my given time allowance?

Thoughts and opinions always welcomed.

Don't over think it.

Yes on an M20 grab the #1 plug wire. Dyno can adjust. If not, grab the coil wire and tell the owner its a 6 cylinder.

Wait time? What's that? Come back to idle, check your IAT/CLT and rip it. If you're after record numbers ice everything down and rent it for 24 hours. If you're not, just rip so long as O2/IAT/CLT is good. Leaks are bad. Most owners will not like oil or hydraulic fluid all over the dyno so take care of that. IAT I like to do ambient plus 30 - 50, but I have a giant air to air and meth injection pre-turbo. Your technique sounds sane. Probably not a loading dyno? If not, whatever figures you end up with pull a degree or around 3500 - 5500 when hitting the street.

2 hours will seem like 20 mins, so just roll with it, you'll have to come back.

[Kevin325i]

Cooling will 100% be your biggest issue. Keeping a stable iat and coolant temp is really hard with the stupid squirrel cage fans for drying floors every single shop seems to have.

If you're on e85 it's pretty unlikely you'll be sweeping spark far enough on an m20 to see knock but it is possible.

Quickest most efficient way to use the time is to use the dyno in speed control. Have it hold 30 mph which will give you a fixed rpm. Then increase load to say 100 kPa, sweep spark and check dyno output as you go. Bump up load with the throttle to your next break point. As you hit the higher loads you're not going to want to do steady state. Increase speed to hit the next point rinse and repeat.

Give yourself a tolerance for coolant temp and air temp. There's no right or wrong here just keep it consistent so your results minimize variables

Sweeps can be useful for the higher loads points. Usually you won't have cooling to keep temps in check to hold steady state max load for more than a couple seconds.


Tach pickup on a plug wire works.

[5mall5nail5]

I ended up doing something more significant for +12v to my pump




Using these:

http://www.radiumauto.com/Electrical...ack-P1049.aspx

I had to machine a boss and drill it through due to the thickness of the hanger top. They're using this:



You can see they're insulated.



When TIG welding the boss in, the solder melted holding the return line so I had to resolder that, annoying.

[euro2fast4u]

That's awesome, my bad luck for dyno time strikes again he has a family emergency (only the 10th time I've tried to get on the rollers). Looking at 2 weeks or so, he reduced the rate soshould be able to get more time.

[E30s50dude]

@5mall5nail5

Did those bulkhead studs require you to weld them to the fuel pump hanger? Or are the sealing washer enough and you could just tighten bulkheads down.

[5mall5nail5]

@5mall5nail5

Did those bulkhead studs require you to weld them to the fuel pump hanger? Or are the sealing washer enough and you could just tighten bulkheads down.

So the sealing washers would be adequate except that the stud assembly requires material thickness 0.262"-0.322" which is thicker than the hanger plate lid, so I machined a boss with a step in it and welded it to the hanger assembly.