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Thread: A/C issues - AUX fan

  1. #1
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    Question A/C issues - AUX fan

    Hello everyone,

    I'm having some issues with my A/C in general here....
    Car: 99' mod M52 engine.

    If my AUX fan is well "bad", will the compressor engage at all? I know the compressor clutch is fine. I've tested it.
    But it never engages by itself. It doesn't run the "self diagnose" when I start the car either.

    AUX fan never starts, no matter what.. I've got 3 wires: black, brown and yellow/Red.
    Between black and brown I get a nice +12v.
    I've also changed the fan.

    But between yellow/red and ground I get nothing.. A/C is set to on. Bad wire?
    That yellow/red wire, does it go all the way into the IHKA inside the car? Without any stops somewhere...

    Can the module itself be bad?

    I'm giving all the information I can... Just ask.. And I'll get it.


    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-20-2017 at 07:24 PM.


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    The yellow/red wire carries a PWM signal from the DME, depending on the radiator outlet temperature, which controls the fan speed.

    If the fan does not spin on startup, it is likely bad.

    Does the A/C work when at speed on the road? I have no knowledge that the DME will inhibit A/C operation when the aux fan fails self test, but that may be the case.


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    Did you check the fuse in the glove box? Number 75?
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    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    The yellow/red wire carries a PWM signal from the DME, depending on the radiator outlet temperature, which controls the fan speed.

    If the fan does not spin on startup, it is likely bad.

    Does the A/C work when at speed on the road? I have no knowledge that the DME will inhibit A/C operation when the aux fan fails self test, but that may be the case.
    The A/C never works.. Always off.. Compressors clutch not engaging(But I know the clutch is okay, tested it by putting 12v directly to it.).
    AUX fan never spins... So then apparently I've got 2 bad fans(Guess I can try a third one, from my friends car.. When he gets it back..). But the compressor should engage no matter?

    Will I be able to read some voltage from that wire? If so.. I don't read anything from it. Completely dead.


    All my fuses in the entire car is okay... I've got no idea what to look for.. or try at this moment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RuskiE39 View Post
    Did you check the fuse in the glove box? Number 75?

    Yes, it's good. All of the fuses in the car are totally fine.


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    I also am unaware of any fan-failure feedback however it could easily be possible, as the DME does give the AC IHKA the "AOK" signal to activate the compressor.

    However there are several other conditions for the compressor to activate. System pressure being high on the list.

    You may very well have 2 independent problems - the fan and the AC could be not directly related.

    Re: fan yes you should be able to read some voltage on the line even though it will be a PWM signal (well... assuming you're a real 99 model year - the fans and IHKA changed operation around that time) and if there's nothing at all then something is wrong in the fan circuits.

    Its also extremely likely the car has some information that it's dying to tell you.

    My suggestos:
    1. read up on the HVAC system (helpfully the aux fan operation is also doc'd here)
    2. read codes from DME to see what's there
    3. read codes from HVAC to see what's there



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    https://www.scribd.com/doc/60087943/...r-conditioning
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    Do you have refrigerant in the system?



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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    I also am unaware of any fan-failure feedback however it could easily be possible, as the DME does give the AC IHKA the "AOK" signal to activate the compressor.

    However there are several other conditions for the compressor to activate. System pressure being high on the list.

    You may very well have 2 independent problems - the fan and the AC could be not directly related.

    Re: fan yes you should be able to read some voltage on the line even though it will be a PWM signal (well... assuming you're a real 99 model year - the fans and IHKA changed operation around that time) and if there's nothing at all then something is wrong in the fan circuits.

    Its also extremely likely the car has some information that it's dying to tell you.

    My suggestos:
    1. read up on the HVAC system (helpfully the aux fan operation is also doc'd here)
    2. read codes from DME to see what's there
    3. read codes from HVAC to see what's there



    Docs:
    https://www.scribd.com/doc/60087943/...r-conditioning
    Thank you, I'll look into that.. I've got INPA and ISTA. So i'll be able to read whatever it has to tell me
    And yes my car is in fact a 99.. Just swaped engine from 520 to 523 of the same year. Well it is M52TUB25.


    I've found out that some older models have it controlled by relays and such.. But after ish 99, it became pulse/PWM controlled fan instead right?
    I've tried to trace the yellow/red cable to where it ends up... It goes into the control box and then straight into the cabin of the car.. Not touching anything in the control box at all. But after there... I've lost it for now..

    I've had my A/C system freshly filled, and it's not leaking or stopped.


    When I push the A/C button on my HVAC panel.. The led comes on.. But nothing more happens. At all. Ever... :/


    But yeah I've been trying to read me to death about this.. But I've not struck gold yet..
    But I'll continue to do so.. So any help of any kind here is so much appreciated! And thanks for your answer

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by auaq View Post
    Do you have refrigerant in the system?
    Yes, freshly filled And no leaking. And no blockage anywhere.


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    OKAAAY here I've got some read outs.... From where I found fault memory.

    I had an AUC sensor laying around.. Changed it.. And the blower fault went away... I don't know.........
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-21-2017 at 12:46 PM.


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    Hmmm. Those are showing up as weird PDFs that want to download instead of pix? No time for messing around w/ that... so post back if you have pix.

    Use INPA, connect to the IHKA / climate head, and use "Status" button to read the status of all the inputs. Then use that in conjunction w/ the docs I ref'd about how AC works. Usually you'll see something informative in the Status screen for why the clutch isn't activating.

    INPA 'status' screens are a hugely under-used resource... even for guys who use INPA all the time all they do is read codes then go "BLLAAAH DERP DERP CODE xxxxx WHAT DO I DO" when really the software can do much more for you...
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    Just a guess: PDF #3 shows error 42, shorted sensor fan. There is a fan on the IHKA board that draws cabin air in to measure cabin temp. If the fan is shorted, it may have taken out the IHKA panel.

    Easiest diagnostic is to replace the IHKA panel.

    The F AUC sensor shows open, but I don't think that would inhibit A/C operation.
    Last edited by edjack; 08-21-2017 at 07:33 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Hmmm. Those are showing up as weird PDFs that want to download instead of pix? No time for messing around w/ that... so post back if you have pix.

    Use INPA, connect to the IHKA / climate head, and use "Status" button to read the status of all the inputs. Then use that in conjunction w/ the docs I ref'd about how AC works. Usually you'll see something informative in the Status screen for why the clutch isn't activating.

    INPA 'status' screens are a hugely under-used resource... even for guys who use INPA all the time all they do is read codes then go "BLLAAAH DERP DERP CODE xxxxx WHAT DO I DO" when really the software can do much more for you...

    I'll check with status when I get home from work. But here I took some screenshots on my phone from the pdfs.

    Thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    Just a guess: PDF #3 shows error 42, shorted sensor fan. There is a fan on the IHKA board that draws cabin air in to measure cabin temp. If the fan is shorted, it may have taken out the IHKA panel.

    Easiest diagnostic is to replace the IHKA panel.

    The F AUC sensor shows open, but I don't think that would inhibit A/C operation.
    It went away after I deleted it... I also changed to another auc I had.. So I don't know where that went... But it's gone... Only fault left is the auc sensor.

    But yeah, I'll try another ihka panel soon.. When I can get my hands on one.
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    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-22-2017 at 04:58 AM.


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    OK...

    GM -
    1. error code for the clown nose light that shows alarm activated. Unrelated and might have just been from somebody turning car on with the mirror disconnected.
    2. some other wiring error for interior security, could be same/related as first one

    DME -
    1. clearly you have no post-cat O2 connected. unrelated.
    2. fan activation error indeed could be related, many occurrences so its likely 'real problem'
    3. coolant temp sensor signal error - could be related - if DME doesn't know coolant temp perhaps it won't allow AC to activate

    IHKA -
    1. Yep AUC error... but usually those don't do anything problematic - in fact they're OFTEN bad on these old used cars now, IHKA works fine without them except for the 'auto fresh air' function
    2. Blower sensor - agreed w/ Ed on this one...


    There's a chance that the AUC/blower perceived errors are false positives from a bad IHKA unit. For example imagine that a driver circuit that supplies voltage to both those sensors craps out. So really there's a failure in the module however the brains of the module just sees "oh, these 2 sensors appear to be dead".

    But for now I'd stick with prior advice - use the Status screen and check all the readings in the IHKA. But you prob need a new IHKA just to fix that sensor blower issue.

    On my wifes Audi you surprisingly nicely can replace the sensor blower BTW as a sub-part... not sure if there's anything like that for our cars, Id tend to doubt it.
    Last edited by geargrinder; 08-22-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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    I had what your describe. Error 125 from the DME (faulty aux fan) and the A/C compressor clutch would not engage. At the end of the day a new aux fan fixed my problem.

    Since you have INPA you could try a couple of things to confirm the aux fan fault is the root cause. First connect to the IHKA and go to the <activate> menu, then force the a/c compressor to <on>. Not a/c enable, there is a specific option to force the A/C clutch.
    Next to status screens (can't recall if IHKA or DME, or both). Look for "korel" signals. Before starting A/C, the IHKA first requests an OK for A/C from the DME. The DME then responds "yes" (or "no"). Only then does the IHKA energize the compressor clutch. In my case I could see the request, but the DME wouldn't give the OK.

    To muddy the waters, some have reported inop PWM aux fans but A/C still operating. Go figure, I can't. It's contrary to what BMW tech docs describe how the system works.

    You might also check with INPA what the IHKA thinks A/C pressure is. If too low, the IHKA won't try to start A/C. I.e. possible you're in the category of aux fan inop but A/C would work, but due to a second problem the IHKA thinks the A/C has no R134a so won't try to start. It would be a huge, unlikely coincidence, but maybe??
    Last edited by rdl; 08-22-2017 at 12:39 PM. Reason: typo
    Regards
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    OK...

    GM -
    1. error code for the clown nose light that shows alarm activated. Unrelated and might have just been from somebody turning car on with the mirror disconnected.
    2. some other wiring error for interior security, could be same/related as first one

    DME -
    1. clearly you have no post-cat O2 connected. unrelated.
    2. fan activation error indeed could be related, many occurrences so its likely 'real problem'
    3. coolant temp sensor signal error - could be related - if DME doesn't know coolant temp perhaps it won't allow AC to activate

    IHKA -
    1. Yep AUC error... but usually those don't do anything problematic - in fact they're OFTEN bad on these old used cars now, IHKA works fine without them except for the 'auto fresh air' function
    2. Blower sensor - agreed w/ Ed on this one...


    There's a chance that the AUC/blower perceived errors are false positives from a bad IHKA unit. For example imagine that a driver circuit that supplies voltage to both those sensors craps out. So really there's a failure in the module however the brains of the module just sees "oh, these 2 sensors appear to be dead".

    But for now I'd stick with prior advice - use the Status screen and check all the readings in the IHKA. But you prob need a new IHKA just to fix that sensor blower issue.

    On my wifes Audi you surprisingly nicely can replace the sensor blower BTW as a sub-part... not sure if there's anything like that for our cars, Id tend to doubt it.
    Thanks for your help here.. But I've gone through the status and looked at it... I also recorded it.. But I couldn't see anything not normal... Only annoying Api errors now and then...

    Video here:


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rdl View Post
    I had what your describe. Error 125 from the DME (faulty aux fan) and the A/C compressor clutch would not engage. At the end of the day a new aux fan fixed my problem.

    Since you have INPA you could try a couple of things to confirm the aux fan fault is the root cause. First connect to the IHKA and go to the <activate> menu, then force the a/c compressor to <on>. Not a/c enable, there is a specific option to force the A/C clutch.
    Next to status screens (can't recall if IHKA or DME, or both). Look for "korel" signals. Before starting A/C, the IHKA first requests an OK for A/C from the DME. The DME then responds "yes" (or "no"). Only then does the IHKA energize the compressor clutch. In my case I could see the request, but the DME wouldn't give the OK.

    To muddy the waters, some have reported inop PWM aux fans but A/C still operating. Go figure, I can't. It's contrary to what BMW tech docs describe how the system works.

    You might also check with INPA what the IHKA thinks A/C pressure is. If too low, the IHKA won't try to start A/C. I.e. possible you're in the category of aux fan inop but A/C would work, but due to a second problem the IHKA thinks the A/C has no R134a so won't try to start. It would be a huge, unlikely coincidence, but maybe??

    I tried to look for "korel" something with that.. But I couldn't find it? But I did activate the A/C compressor. The air was so cold It was nice tho... I've added a video of me going through the status tab in INPA.. While fiddling with the buttons

    Please take a look, maybe you'll se something...


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    Note... My outside temp sensor is GONE

    ----

    Ups... Probably should have edited my last post instead..
    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-22-2017 at 01:27 PM. Reason: upsy double post


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    You must not have noticed the huge negative temp (-40 deg F here) on the cluster.


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    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    You must not have noticed the huge negative temp (-40 deg F here) on the cluster.
    I know about that one.. The outside temp sensor is gone.. Well that plastic part has broken off.. But that shouldn't interfere with my A/C and all that?

    Mine is in celsius.
    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-22-2017 at 05:00 PM. Reason: Temp


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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiaN View Post
    Thanks for your help here.. But I've gone through the status and looked at it... I also recorded it.. But I couldn't see anything not normal... Only annoying Api errors now and then...

    ...
    I tried to look for "korel" something with that.. But I couldn't find it? But I did activate the A/C compressor. The air was so cold It was nice tho... I've added a video of me going through the status tab in INPA.. While fiddling with the buttons

    Please take a look, maybe you'll se something...
    It's some time ago that I had the issue & don't recall all the details. Perhaps I found the "korel" signals in the DME screens. And they may not be labeled "korel". BMW tech docs describe the sequence I listed & they use the term "korel". INPA may term it something like "A/C request" and "A/C initiated", etc. I'll try to make some time in the garage and find the screen.

    Meantime, do you appreciate that with the ambient temp sensor gone, the IHKA "sees" -40 degrees as edjack mentions? And the IHKA won't attempt A/C cooling unless it thinks ambient is over 10C ( ~50 F)
    Regards
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdl View Post
    It's some time ago that I had the issue & don't recall all the details. Perhaps I found the "korel" signals in the DME screens. And they may not be labeled "korel". BMW tech docs describe the sequence I listed & they use the term "korel". INPA may term it something like "A/C request" and "A/C initiated", etc. I'll try to make some time in the garage and find the screen.

    Meantime, do you appreciate that with the ambient temp sensor gone, the IHKA "sees" -40 degrees as edjack mentions? And the IHKA won't attempt A/C cooling unless it thinks ambient is over 10C ( ~50 F)

    Okay thank you, I'll also keep looking for some information here and there..
    But I guess I can invest in some new parts so the temp sensor has somewhere to be

    But like I'm not sure that has to do much about the compressor tho.. But I'll give it a shot.. Was in my plans to fix it at some point anyway.


    Edit:
    Guess I can just try to plug it in.. And see if it makes a difference first..
    Last edited by stiiaN; 08-22-2017 at 05:27 PM. Reason: Test


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    A little update so far.. Havnet actually connected the outside temp sensor yet..

    But i've tried 4 fans, 2 IHKA panels. But still no go for the fan(s) to start....
    There is absolutely no readings from the yellow/red wire on the connector on the car.

    Tried to trace it backwards.. To see where it ends up.. But I keep loosing it. Would be interesting to see if the cable is OK or not.. But I'm not really sure where I can find the other end of it. Anyone know the exact location for it? And I've got the PWM fan.

    Thanks..




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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiaN View Post
    ...
    There is absolutely no readings from the yellow/red wire on the connector on the car.

    Tried to trace it backwards.. To see where it ends up.. But I keep loosing it. Would be interesting to see if the cable is OK or not.. But I'm not really sure where I can find the other end of it. Anyone know the exact location for it? And I've got the PWM fan.
    ...
    See the attached schematic. The yellow/red wire runs to the DME in the E-box under the cabin air filter. X60004 at the DME is described as a black 40 pin connector.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdl View Post
    See the attached schematic. The yellow/red wire runs to the DME in the E-box under the cabin air filter. X60004 at the DME is described as a black 40 pin connector.
    Okay, thanks.. I'll take a look tomorrow..
    For some reason that website that shows diagrams and such.. Doesn't work for me.. Something to do with Java I guess.


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  23. #23
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    OKay... The electric fan actually started... By itself.. It was a quick 5 min drive... Got home, stepped outside heard a fan hitting something.. went in front of the car.. And to my surprise.. it was the electric fan.. I just what?! It stopped after a few sec when I was watching it. I couldn't get it to start again.. Didn't move when I restarted the car, hitting the A/C button.. Nothing... So that was weird.. But well now I know the fan works So.. there's a little positive in this.

    Bad connection somewhere?


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    Have you STILL not plugged in the outside temp sensor? You seem oddly dismissive and stubborn on that even though you've been told from way back that that was required for AC to be switched on.

    Just plug it in, and ziptie it anyplace down there if your fender liner porkchop is damaged (I'm assuming this is why you aren't doing it properly once and for all). Please. Do it for the children. They are our future.

    Here's what I think most likely happened: on that drive, engine temp rose high enough to require AUX fan on top of the visco mechanical fan, engine turned on AUX for a few minutes, engine temp cooled back down enough to not be required anymore, and shut fan off... and therefore, all that was unrelated to AC actuation whatsoever. To test that theory, you could thrash the heck out of the car for a short bit, and try to drive your engine temps as high as possible, then come to a hard stop, jump out and see if the fan has come back on again.

    Also - you said "fan hitting something". Is your fan actually hitting something? The PWM fan might have an error condition sensing where it senses improper current draw or something if the fan is obstructed, and doesn't activate the fan if that happens. In fact on the M62TU I am pretty sure that logic is there - my fan once got frozen by snow-slush and I got a dashboard error about it.

    However I am more likely thinking the issue is as above - AC isn't work cuz you still no plug in sensor, and this event was purely engine-temp related.
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  25. #25
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    The outside temp sensor HAS to work for the AC to turn on. Mandatory. You need to start with that first above all things. GG is 100% on the money with that.

    My car is an 8/99 with the PWM fan which is shot, and my AC still works fine (I tend to use it mainly in low traffic conditions to keep the airflow over it, and I just replaced the aux fan in the X5 which whopped me for $375).

    Get rid of that auc fault code as well, and things should run as normal.

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    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 01-12-2014, 11:39 AM
  2. aux fan switch issues...
    By 328iJunkie in forum 1983 - 1991 (E30)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-13-2007, 01:22 AM
  3. A/C - Aux Fan Issue - Help Requested
    By idhaskel in forum 1992 - 1999 M3 (E36)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-02-2007, 04:28 AM
  4. temperature switch/aux. fan issues
    By bigmansM in forum 1992 - 1999 M3 (E36)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-16-2007, 02:39 AM
  5. hard wired aux fan issues - URGENT
    By texasbimmer in forum 1991 - 1999 (E36)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-05-2005, 05:43 PM

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