Would low voltage (12.20-11.97) cause the Starter to not crank?

[PostChris909]

My starter makes a weak click most of the time when attempting to turn the car on. Sometimes even 3 or recently 4, but the clicks are weak, doesn't sound the same as what it used to. Its easily recognizably different sounding then that "fresh off the lot sound" you get from a fresh start lol.

At times before it stopped turning on I was having some odd things happen. Now i Know what you guys are thinking "Its a electrical grimlin from the ignition", but These symptoms are just different.(FYI I have already done the passenger sun visor test) When pressing on the brakes whether I'm driving or not, the air condition would slowly yet quickly fade off. Once i released the brakes and start to gas, it remained off until the car began coasting. The air blows very cold, honestly quite f***ing cold, but this is a problem i am not at all familiar with. (Just a side note, the things I'm listing all began to happen about 2 weeks before she decided not to start anymore)

Another time my windows wouldn't roll up or down, at all? In fact the very first symptom to happen was 4 weeks before she died and my passenger window did this then when the car was parked but key in position 1, i could roll it any which way and hadn't had it happen again till two weeks later.

I changed my cars oil and filters 3 weeks ago, but lost my tool to reset the service light so it still shows up as two green LEDs instead of 6. Not sure, and I doubt if this could cause a problem.

I've kept the motor very healthy for 26k miles, no check or service engine lights, only an abs light due to bad rear wheel speed sensors.

One thing i found weird is my mpg stopped working, and I haven't been able to reset it, as well as my airbag light coming on. Not sure why it was on, neither does my trusted mechanic who literally allows me to spectate when work is being done to my car (Good friend from HS) for my own education. (Majority of her work done by me if i have the time and tools, nothing big just service and suspension parts)

I'm not exactly seasoned to the beamer lifestyle, so I'm just here looking for some help.

Last thing, my battery and oil light dim out when turning the key to the "start" position, not sure what that is about...


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[PostChris909]

Btw my car is an e39 2000 BMW 528i

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[Dave Sal]

Have you tried charging the battery fully? That's the first thing I would do. Lot's of electrical stuff can happen with a low charge. If you don't have one, I'd recommend getting a Deltran battery tender which is about $50. I use mine about once every 3 weeks during summer, and weekly during the winter. My battery has never let me down since I started doing this.

[PostChris909]

I had the battery charged on the 14th actually. They told me it was 100% with great voltage, but seems like 100% bull s***. My battery is fairly new, about a year old once September rolls around. Also it is lifetime warranty, maybe i should switch it out.

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[geargrinder]

While I agree low volts causes weird stuff, and hovering right at just ~12V shouldn't alone be putting you in that much weirdo territory.

Starter itself could be bad for purely that one symptom but having the other stuff makes it less likely. Could be your alternator is bad and lets voltage sag even worse than measured at times and isn't fully replenishing battery.

But the go to items for real weirdo stuff like this would be ignition switch or, the fuse panels under passenger floor getting wet.

Charge up the battery and if you can get the car to start again, try measuring voltage while you drive, see if its sagging even worse.

[PostChris909]

I was told when the car is started, or at least in my case "attempted" the volts should bump up to 13.5-14.5 due to an extra charge from the alternator. Being that mine drops to 11.97 just by switching the ignition, i feel its safe to keep this in mind, but not to rule it out. I've checked all connections/grounds for any shorts and or corrosion and things look fine. Only thing i haven't done is test the volts of the wires leading to the starter from ignition and haven't checked majority of fuses/relays.
(Damn electrical problems!)

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[geargrinder]

Yes it should do that while running but will not do it while just cranking. You can't self-charge the battery by spinning the alternator with the starter motor. Otherwise we'd have perpetual motion n' stuff. Your lowest voltage will generally be while cranking before it starts as the starter motor is far and away the biggest consumer of juice.

[gmak]

SInce it clicks, the ignition is talking to the starter solenoid. At the risk of blah blah blah, when I had this issue in an E60, I had to take all the wires that ran power to the starter via various terminals and take the terminals apart and clean them very well.

The way that I determined that it was this issue is that I put 12V directly to the starter - it turned the motor (note that I had the batter disconnected). I then moved back down the wire to where the next terminal was and put the power there etc etc until I found where the motor would not turn. That confirmed that it was an oxidation issue for me.

Note that it may also be the ground wire(s) at various points from engine to frame.

[PostChris909]

Yes it should do that while running but will not do it while just cranking. You can't self-charge the battery by spinning the alternator with the starter motor. Otherwise we'd have perpetual motion n' stuff. Your lowest voltage will generally be while cranking before it starts as the starter motor is far and away the biggest consumer of juice.

Any predominate techniques as to testing the alternator? Also she's sitting on flat ground in hot ass southern California, (heat makes this job worse than my actual job) terrible place to work on her, but would it be possible to "bump" start it with help?

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[geargrinder]

Manual or auto? Manual yes no problem.

Guys will say it's "impossible with a modern automatic" although IME it's not always the case - although it might be with these cars. But even if it is possible, its terribly inadvisable as you need to get the car up to an extremely high rate of speed, typically achieved by towing it with another car, and you can imagine how ugly it would be to be pulling a car that's trying to fire at near highway speed and surging on/off of a tow strap etc. And pretty horrible for the transmission as well for a variety of reasons.

[StephenVA]

The real test should be the following when measured at the battery:

What is the voltage with the engine off?
What is the LOWEST battery voltage when cranking?
What is the battery voltage when the engine starts? (yes, I understand yours never gets there)

If the battery slips below 9.6V under cranking the engine controllers and accessories will loose all functional logic until the voltage returns closer to 12v. Starter draw should be under 250 AMP DC max.

Quick Tip: If the battery cell walls collapse and short out internally, no matter how much "JUMP START" amp/voltage is applied, very little will move into the starting systems as all is converted into heat (NOTE: Real bad things happen). R&R battery ASAP.

Industry Fact: More batteries die in the summer heat than die of winter cold.

Step One: Right mind set - "Test, don't guess"
Step Two: Right test equipment equals real results
Step Three: DIY Knowledge to read test results and understand what they truly represent
Step Four: Repairs/replacement of failed components and or circuits.

Helpful?

[auaq]

Yeah, technically speaking voltage shouldn't drop below 10V while cranking.

[PostChris909]

The real test should be the following when measured at the battery:

What is the voltage with the engine off?
What is the LOWEST battery voltage when cranking?
What is the battery voltage when the engine starts? (yes, I understand yours never gets there)

If the battery slips below 9.6V under cranking the engine controllers and accessories will loose all functional logic until the voltage returns closer to 12v. Starter draw should be under 250 AMP DC max.

Quick Tip: If the battery cell walls collapse and short out internally, no matter how much "JUMP START" amp/voltage is applied, very little will move into the starting systems as all is converted into heat (NOTE: Real bad things happen). R&R battery ASAP.

Industry Fact: More batteries die in the summer heat than die of winter cold.

Step One: Right mind set - "Test, don't guess"
Step Two: Right test equipment equals real results
Step Three: DIY Knowledge to read test results and understand what they truly represent
Step Four: Repairs/replacement of failed components and or circuits.

Helpful?

With the engine off, its about 12.20. When attempting to crank it lowers to 11.97, so I'd say I'm about 55% charge on the battery. Could it be possible i have a short with the solenoid? What equipment exactly would you recommend? I haven't got a lot of electrical tools/equipment. Also would you happen to know a way to test the starter/alternator? Im not sure on how to identify if my battery has cell walls that collapsed, but if the did the battery is still supplying power to the cabin of the vehicle. Where would you start in this situation?

I'm at work rn and our wifi here is garbage so I can't link another post rn for some reason, but I have a screenshot of possible ground connections. This may help any others with electrical problems as I know after some research these cars after years are prone to them.

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[ViolinARC]

IMG_20130130_114516.jpg

[StephenVA]

I would always start at charging the battery (fast rate or a slow trickle charger makes no diff) 24 hrs on a home 15 amp version, longer if a trickle charger.
Read battery voltage. - See Chart form on post #11
Perform vanity mirror test to confirm it is NOT the Ign switch. (my own 528 made all kinds of electrical errors when the Ig Sw failed) Headlamps turn ON?
Tighten down all the ground straps esp the positive jump start posts under the hood on the intake.
Open hood, test battery voltage at the starter (Yep you see 12V?
Turn key to start
Starter spins normally or slowly or just clicks? If yes, DISCONNECT the battery in the trunk, and remove starter, test on bench with jumper cables (NOTE: Clamp or put in a vice as it will jump around)
Test at your local auto parts super store (NOTE: this test is not a LOAD test just a 12 spin around.) FAIL = replace with known good one. IF reman, Make the reseller test before you install. 3 to 12 % fail out of the box. Welcome to cheap rebuilt units. Note there are two versions that fit our cars 140 MM and 180 MM w/threaded holes and unthreaded. Confirm before ordering

https://www.fcpeuro.com/BMW-parts/52...79&m=20&page=1
https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E39-52...rical/Starter/

Note: I am walking you down the starting system test procedure. There may be a few side tracks if the starter comes back OK. (like is there something in the cyl holes that will not compress? (think antifreeze)

If the starter comes back from bench tests showing it is ok, re-install and remove all the plugs to confirm the engine will turn over without any compression resistance. Starter spins engine? Y/N

[StephenVA]

At this stage all you need in the way of tools are normal hand tools and a Volt Ohm meter that reads DC.
Grounds, Start in the trunk with the battery, Clean both terminals with a Battery terminal cleaner tool. under $5
Remove and clean the neg ground near the battery (confirm that there is no water floating in the spare tire well.
Remove and clean the POSITIVE jump nut on the intake.
Remove and clean the cables at the starter that have been soaked in oil and grease for the last 17 years. After cleaning what is the voltage at the starter?
Let us know how you are progressing.....

[ViolinARC]

Apologies Stephen...posted the Bentley info before logging in so I didn't see your voltage chart. FME, these cars act really weird when the battery voltage isn't at max so I tend to go by the brick for those numbers. After getting a proper replacement for the '00, I no longer have to use a battery tender...

[StephenVA]

YOU ARE CORRECT! These little buggers are very sensitive to low voltage experiences. Welcome to third generation of electronics. The ones after our models, just fail to start if the battery voltage drops below 10V on cranking. Can not wait for the expose' on electric cars and their battery dilemmas. Owners of the earthy crunchy set have no clue what is coming their way towards the end of life for battery pack and the $5,000 bill that comes with them. Hopefully they will drop them at the end of lease onto the unsuspecting used car lots...... Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

Meanwhile Volvo announced they are turning all of their models into electric powered. Don't tell anyone that the energy generation from their home outlets was not crated from "earth friendly" power plants....whoopsie.

[PostChris909]

Was finally able to get back to my baby after a couple weeks away for school and work. Since I've been back I've went ahead and took my intake, ccv, and throttle body out to gain access to the starter. Most forums said to remove the intake manifold but I only loosened it for leverage to pull the starter motor out after dismantling the grounds (nuts&wires). Once I got a hold of it, I went ahead and connected it with jumper cables to the battery. I put the negative cable on the ground (where the bolt hole is) and connected the positive cable to the longest protruding bolt at the bottom of solenoid. Got a screw driver and put it on positive cable tip and touched bolt above the positive cable and got my outcome. The gear does not engage (move upward) and sometimes it even just clicks and doesn't spin at all. Took me about an hour to do all of this. So if anyone else has this problem, it doesn't take lowering your transmission or removing manifold for leverage, just tools, great ankles and an icey hot for your back lol. Just ordered a new starter motor by Bosch. Should arrive in a week, I'll give an update on this then

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