Collapsed lifters- is the tray the cause? Or the VAC S54 oil pan upgrade?

[BobInIndy]

Has anyone had worn cam trays cause their lifters to tick, and ultimately to collapse? Maybe I'm reaching here, but I'm at wits end.

My 156,000 mile S52 began ticking after a hard run at HPDE events, then mostly go away. Shortly after, I replaced my oil pan gasket, and found a piece of a valve spring in the oil pickup. So, I pulled the head, had it rebuilt, new guides, and half the valves, rebuilt the vanos. One thing led to another, and I ended up rebuilding the engine, including boring the cylinders, slightly higher compression pistons, race riot regrind cams, BMW valve springs and retainers, shrick intake, Achilles oil pump shaft upgrade with new rotors and relief valve spring, and big bore throttle, CAI, etc.. I installed a new set of INA lifters. The trays had some scoring of the bearing caps, and wear in the lifter bores, but I thought within reason, from what I read on the forums.

After the the rebuild and break-in, I was pretty happy with the engine. Maybe 500 miles later, I developed a bad tapping after another HPDE. No amount of bleeding procedures by running up the revs and holding it made it go away. So, I pulled the cams and found a collapsed lifter. I replaced it, and all was well. For a while. Then, it happened again. Different lifter. This time, I also installed a S54 oil pan, pickups, and a VAC high output S54 oil pump. Quiet again for half another HPDE ( this one with the Mid Ohio Porsche club event held at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway --- SUPER cool.) Now its right back, might be a couple lifters this time.

So,,,am I super unlucky? Is it possible the VAC upgraded oil pump is sucking air around the suction tube joint ( its the first design 2001 version without a screwed down flange.), or has it been sucking air in around the worn lifter trays this whole time?


Thanks for sharing any applicable experiences
Bob

[pbonsalb]

My two thoughts are whether the lifters are still good and whether the rebuild of the motor was done right with respect to the oil system. What is the oil pressure at idle and max?

[BobInIndy]

Oil pressure cold is 25 idle to 110 at high rpm. Hot is 8-9 idle, 90 at high rpm. 15/50 Mobil 1. I rebuilt the engine. Mic'd all the crank journals and plastigauge, middle or better of the tolerances.

Bob

[ben4bama]

8-9 hot idle indicates bad oil squirters. Ticking after HPDE is normal for just about any e36.

[AJLM34A]

15/50 Mobil 1.

This is part of the cause. I was using Mobil 1 10/40 and had a few original lifters with 135k on them bleed down when I was testing a 3:91 diff and beating the snot out of it. I tried all of the recommend procedures for pumping them back up without any success. I switched to Shell Rotella T6 and drove easy 200~300 miles and they pumped up and zero issues in a year and half.

[NeilM]

Oil pressure cold is 25 idle to 110 at high rpm. Hot is 8-9 idle, 90 at high rpm. 15/50 Mobil 1. I rebuilt the engine. Mic'd all the crank journals and plastigauge, middle or better of the tolerances.

Bob

You've got the oil pressure, so it's more likely the lifters. You've had problems with two of them already, so is there any reason at all to think the other 22 are immune? Time either to replace them all or to follow the lifter cleaning/rebuild procedure and hope that works. Despite the cost I'd be more inclined to replace them all and have done with it.

Neil
96 M3
Dual pickup oil pan with VAC high output oil pump

[pbonsalb]

He installed a new set of lifters at the time of the other work.

I don't think it's M1 15W50. I use 0W40 and it works fine though I may change to Castrol or 5W40. 15W40 might be thick on startup for my year round driving in NH.

[jakermac]

I would consistently have bad lifter tick at autocross after a run. I then started overfilling the oil level by about 1 to 1 1/2 quarts. Never again did I experience lifter tick.

[TostitoBandito]

I would consistently have bad lifter tick at autocross after a run. I then started overfilling the oil level by about 1 to 1 1/2 quarts. Never again did I experience lifter tick.

This. I run a quart over for this reason. Doesn't hurt anything with this engine.

[BobInIndy]

Good thoughts all. As far as overfilling with oil, remember that I installed the S54 oil pan, pump, and pickups, similar to the E36 M3 LTW from the factory. This is supposed to eliminate the aeration problem from the pickup being uncovered on the S52 setup during cornering. This deletes the windage tray, too.
Seems like these are the candidates for the problem:
1. INA manufactured OEM sourced lifters ( replace with BMW lifters? God awful expensive, and supposedly made by INA)
2. Worn trays allowing oil leak down, or air sucked in during idle down
3. Race riot camshaft regrind with slightly reduced diameter that the lifters can't compensate for under high rpm use
4. Defect in VAC high output S54 oil pump upgrade or suction tube joint
All very expensive items to diagnose by throwing parts at the problem, eh?


Bob

[MauiM3Mania]

I'm wondering why your OP is so high (110psi)? I'm not suggesting that the high op is the cause of lifters going bad, but have to wonder....

[AJLM34A]

All very expensive items to diagnose by throwing parts at the problem, eh?


Bob

An oil change to a lighter weight oil is the cheapest and easiest to do.

[jayjaya29]

I would consistently have bad lifter tick at autocross after a run. I then started overfilling the oil level by about 1 to 1 1/2 quarts. Never again did I experience lifter tick.

Bingo. Overfill and you'll never hear ticking again.

[jakermac]

All very expensive items to diagnose by throwing parts at the problem, eh?

Bob

How expensive is a quart or 2 of oil?

[pbonsalb]

We know the engine is supposed to run without lifter collapse or ticking. If I had just rebuilt a motor and spent a bunch on new or fancy parts, I would want to try to figure out the problem rather than just apply the band aid used by the guys with 20 year old motors. The band aid of overfilling the pan apparently works but it would be my last choice rather than my first if I had just done all the work the OP did. I would want to explore everything else first since the point of building the motor was to make it better and have less issues.

[jakermac]

But the issue has been openly prevalent with these motors for many years. And though my issue 1st appeared to me with the original motor that was in my car when I bought it in 2011 it is not "reserved" to me in the strictest sense. And I continued the practice as a precautionary step with my newly built motor complete with Achilles Motorsports oil pan baffle and several other mods to prevent the ticking from returning.

[NeilM]

Bingo. Overfill and you'll never hear ticking again.

Alas, not so. An overfill will help, but under severe use — sustained high cornering forces, especially with downhill braking — lifter tick is a fact of life with these engines. That's why BMW introduced the dual pickup oil pump/pan system starting in 1995 (certain models only).

The OP has retrofitted this dual pickup system, together with the uprated VAC oil pump. (The dual chamber pump has a lower displacement than the stock E36 pump; VAC fixes that.) For several years I've been running exactly the same setup on my track car, and with it lifter tick is now an extremely rare occurrence. To cite an example the OP will be familiar with, the approach to T8 at Putnam Park is downhill, followed by substantial braking and a sustained left turn. A friend's E36 with sump baffles and an oil overfill would see the oil pressure there drop into the high teens for a few seconds. My car with its dual-pickup oil pump/pan is unaffected.

I'm wondering why your OP is so high (110psi)? I'm not suggesting that the high op is the cause of lifters going bad, but have to wonder....

And that's a question that needs some serious consideration, along with why two of the new lifters collapsed. These two things could be unrelated, but I can think of a single explanation that might account for both of them — although it's an ugly one.

First, remember that pressure and flow from a pump are inversely related. If a pump discharges into the open air then flow will be high, but pressure low, whereas if the outlet is restricted then pressure will be high and flow constrained. An automotive oil pump operates between these two extremes: it both moves a fair amount of oil for the lifters, general lubrication and internal cooling, but also maintains a good amount of pressure (4+ bar) for the plain bearings. Oil pump discharge pressure is regulated by a spring-loaded pop-off valve in the pump body. This can be shimmed to raise the max pressure, but because its outlet is only a tiny 2mm diameter orifice it really can't dump a whole lot of oil pressure once the pump is up to speed.

So what might account both for collapsed lifters, typically a sign of low oil pressure/flow, yet high observed oil pressure? Well one thing would be a partial blockage in the oil feed to the head. Foreign matter, a poorly punched hole in the head gasket, something like that. Such a flow restriction could both starve the lifters and increase oil pressure by blocking flow. Unfortunately you'd have to remove and partly disassemble the head to investigate — and this is only a hypothesis.

What single failure item doesn't account for both symptoms?
- Low oil fill, since observed oil pressure is (very) high.
- Leakage in the oil pickup, same reason as above (plus it's a different design from the normal E36).
- Faulty oil pump, same as above. Plus it's new.
- Squirters stuck opEN. (Some probably are, but there's lots of oil pressure anyhow.)
- Defective lifters (unlikely with new parts).
- Excess lifter to tray clearance (would cause oil pressure drop)

Logically that leaves simultaneous unrelated failures (possible but unlikely) and stuff I haven't thought of (entirely possible...).

Neil

[pbonsalb]

The discussion from 2009 is not much different:

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ter-ticking-Qs

ScotcH suggests 20W50 or 10W60.

[MauiM3Mania]

ScotcH suggests 20W50 or 10W60.

I imagine he was referring to his track cars. 10w-60 is so wrong for a S50/S52 road engine.

[bluptgm3]

Seems like these are the candidates for the problem:

3. Race riot camshaft regrind with slightly reduced diameter that the lifters can't compensate for under high rpm use

All very expensive items to diagnose by throwing parts at the problem, eh? Bob

Smaller base circle cam? Any chance you have factory cams to run/test?

[BobInIndy]

Re the oil pressure/ flow hypothesis. I wonder what the oil flow path is on the S52. Is there a solitary "choke point?" I have a trashed head in the pole barn. I'll look at that tomorrow. I know there is an oil check valve there somewhere. I do have a MLS head gasket with the thickness to compensate for the head re-surface.

Re the oil squirters: I remembered looking at those in the rebuild and thought they were simple open nozzles, no valve. Not true? They were all equally open. I wonder if my oil pressure readings are accurate. I have the Leatherz oil distribution block, and its design is suspect to me.

I do appreciate the comments about running a quart over, and ticking being common with these cars, especially from those running a S54 pump and pan. What I'm experiencing is not just ticking, but actual physical collapsing of the lifter, such that when I remove it, is collapsed a 10th of an inch or more and does not extend.

Re the cam base circle: I had to trade in the stock S52 cam to get the Riot Racing regrind. But, I broke down and bought some Schrick cams and another set of INA lifters. They are going in this weekend, and I'll inspect the trays again.

Then back out to Putnam park second weekend in Sept

[BobInIndy]

So, to update this thread. I pulled the cams , trays and lifters. Two are collapsed on the intake side this time. But now, a new finding. The thrust surface at the front part of the cam has been grinding against the front cap of the intake cam tray. These are both wearing surfaces, and are totally wrecked. Now there is about 1/8 inch or more of cam end play. I don't see an oiling problem on the cam bearing journals. Just faint wear. Either the cam had a bad thrust surface, or somehow the vanos was ramming the camshaft back. Is that even possible? I purchased a new intake gear, shims, bolt, cam gear just in case. The vanos was recently personally, carefully rebuilt by me, and seems to operate freely, BUT I have been lately getting a vanos mechanically jammed code. I'm not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg on that.

i spoke with the guy who rebuilt my head. Very reputable independent outside of Indianapolis who does bmw heads for all the local indys and dealers too. He always removes and cleans the oil check valve and removes all the plugs, and cleans out all the oil galleys. So, although anything is possible, a restriction in the head is unlikely. He thinks there would major trashing of cam bearings and constant clatter if there was a restriction.

AND, I gave bad info about the oil pressure at the high end. ( I apologize for that, because I know that your posts took that info into consideration.) I researched my vdo oil sender and gauge. I have been unknowingly using a 0-80 psi sender with a 0-150 gauge. So, it's probably closer to 70-80 psi at high rpm. Matched set arriving tomorrow.

So, Schrick cams, a new set of INA lifters, a used replacement cam tray and the new vanos gears going in this week. It sure would be re-assuring to figure out why this happened. I'd hate to trash the new Schricks
Bob

[BobInIndy]

Continuing thread here under new title:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...2#post29807312
Bob

[pbonsalb]

I think you may have put late cams in early cam trays. All cams can go in late trays, but early trays need machining in the area you mention to fit later cams. Is this possible?

[BobInIndy]

Hmmm. The cam tray was the original S52, 96 to 99, and I think all S52 cams are 96 to 99, aren't they? Are you referring to the older S50 trays which also have different size lifters, I believe? Or if I'm off base here, could you describe what needs to be machined. This is new to me.
Bob