Member
For clarification and safety's sake, I think the pliability of the first line you suggested Randy would be very much an emergency fix, as well as not tunable because it would change volume more readily. I suspect the hose would burst if used any considerable length of time and present a serious fire hazard. That hard line description is great for OP minus the heat
Last edited by Somjuan; 08-20-2017 at 10:37 PM. Reason: Clarification for safety
-John
Member
Hi ...
DO NOT heat the Polyamide (PA) lines when trying to insert the banjo fittings ... if you heat them enough to soften the plastic it stretches when you push the fitting in and doesn't return to it's original size ! Then it leaks all over the place.
Look at this post I did a couple of years ago ... it has a good link to a ferrari website on making the wooden clamping blocks if you don't want to buy a pipe flaring too ... I have made wood blocks and also used the pipe flaring tool since I already owned one with equal success.
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...2#post28282262
I do feel the wood block method is a little kinder to the PA pipe because it spreads the clamping force over a larger surface area but the other way does work ... just don't clamp it too hard.
Cheers
hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...
Member
Randy said 'fuel injection hose' (typically rated for ~120 or 150 psi), which will not burst. It's fine for a temp fix as long as it fits and is secured properly.Originally Posted by Somjuan
Graham (GDAus) to the *rescue, again
I forgot who introduced the wooden block method to us, it was you, correct?
Last edited by epmedia; 08-21-2017 at 12:41 PM.
Tbd
Member
Thanks Robert .. but no ... someone else did a post about the ferrari site as a source for the PA lines. I'm pretty sure they did mention it had a bit about how to attach the lines ... I just made it a bit more obvious.Randy said 'fuel injection hose' (typically rated for ~120 or 150 psi), which will not burst. It's fine for a temp fix as long as it fits and is secured properly.
Graham (GDAus) to the recuse, again
I forgot who introduced the wooden block method to us, it was you, correct?
But I did find the original Bosch instructions in a big 1970's book on Fuel Injection systems that was in my local public library
And I did look up the specifications for the PA tubing and found it starts to soften at 150 o C and at 180o C or above .. it deforms permanently if it is stretched.
Cheers Mate
hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...
Member
Yikes,,There is thermoplastic and thermosetting plastic. Thermoplastics differ from thermosetting polymers, which form irreversible chemical bonds during the curing process.
Thermosets do not melt when heated: they decompose and do not reform upon cooling.
A thermoplastic, or thermosoftening plastic, is a plastic material, a polymer, that becomes pliable or moldable above a specific temperature and solidifies upon cooling.
Polyamide has the highest resistance of all textile raw materials (also when wet) and is very stretchy.
Polyamide is thermoplastic not thermosettingplastic.
You cannot use thermosettingplastic in the engine bay or elsewhere at all or where heat is present to carry gasoline , ect, it has to be thermoplastic due to heat, its against common sense and rules and
regulations and so forth.
Any plastic becomes brittle over a long period of time,,the plastic gas lines in the engine bays of e21's are polyamide or other thermoplastic.
Get the new belmetric polyamide lines and heat or not as I originally said,,its completely safe. Heating thermoplastic and then inserting fittings has been done for decades and is what is in your engine bay
now unless you changed out the fuel injection lines and other thermoplastic lines to something else. Heating is preferred as it does not cut the material so much-it bends and slides around the insert and
then molds in place when cooled. Flush the lines with air to get the small particles out-this is an added extra-recommended and done at factory level of expertise.
I accept your retractions.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-21-2017 at 11:28 AM.
Member
Hmmm ... no thermosetting plastics in the engine bay .... well ... the sockets and matching plugs on the Thermo Time Switch, the Aux. Air valve, the Cold Start injector, the WUR, the distributor cap, the terminal end of the coil & the end cap on the solenoid for the starter motor ... oh ... and the little shield around the B+ terminal on the alternator .. would probably want to disagree.
They are all thermosetting plastic .. probably urea formaldehyde .. that is the most common thermoset plastic for electrical fittings.
Yes, all the fuel lines associated with the K jet fuel injection are PA (nylon was the name Dupont came up with when they started manufacturing polyamides in the late 1930's) ... and Bosch have a special tool to attach PA lines to barbed fittings cold .... and they specifically say "Don't use heat" so that is good enough for me.
.... and yes is is important to use the right grade of PA line when replacing fuel lines ... a reputable seller should be quoting what international standard the line has been manufactured to ... so you can check to see what the line is capable of withstanding.
hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...
Member
Lol, Read- Carrying Gasoline, ect.
Randy
Member
I almost missed that too, because it's in the middle of the sentence. lol
Tbd
Member
One more Item that came to my attention,, do the screw in piece first(goes into WUR) and screw in all the way tight, then line up and mark the polyamide line such that the banjo eye is parallel to the hole, we dont want to twist the polyamide lines to fit, we want them to fit professionally perfect.
Passing shot--simply pushing the banjo eye in will work, yet is not professional,,heres why The sharp edges will cut the interior on the tubing down weaking the sidewalls, each edge that passes in scrapes some material off and is not a good a seal as can be done, heating it the polyamide will loosen up and when cooled down it will mold all over the edges making a tight seal on all the sharp and smooth surfaces, a professional fit..
Buy extra length of tubing and practice a few---you have the fuel injector hose with clamps as backup. Practice makes perfect.
The heating method is best you have to simply soften it up a little and push it in with flare tool set. Old trusty gf's hair dryer will work or heat gun on low.. ,,,you heat the end your fitting-this softens the material in the hole for easier insertion....
My frequency valve line cracked a few years ago the one that sends fuel back to the tank , I replaced with fuel injection hose line and works perfectly,, I contacted CARB the authorities here and talked with there fuel injection regulation expert and mentioned what happened, He asked me how do I feel about it, using the latest spec FI Hose, I said I'm okay with it, he said its fine.
Fuel injection hose can replace plastic gas lines if specs are higher than service ceiling in psi, its much higher in psi strength than mere rubber gas lines and is available everywhere.
Eric if your really stuck, I have two extra wur line sets done at the factory by the heat method I outlined and I can sport you the one that is bad for shipping cost.. I collect these hard to find items at the bone yard when an e21 of same vintage comes into the area and I get to it..
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-21-2017 at 10:52 PM.
Member
Waiting for ordered line. Taking the downtime to address other items- prepping for battery relocation, cleaning engine bay and tracking exhaust rattle.
This weekend is busy as I am headed to Charlotte to pick up parts I purchased from the gent selling the euro 320/6 roller.
Is there a recommended aftermarket flexible fuel line in lieu of the hard plastic injector lines and the lines running to the WUR?
Member
I was on page 1 replying to Randy's post ending that page! I missed all of this tech talk...
Thank you for your offer to hook me up with the return line- I already ordered and unless I get a "not available", I am expecting by Monday. Is the foam filter mentioned accessible from the outside or do I have to open it up to clean? There is a good chance it will have to be opened up anyways, just curious.
Member
Okay on your order, Let me know on getting it or not.
These lines are okay to work with .
Filter is metal and on the control pressure line side in the hole, carb cleaner the two holes and let soak(will evaporate out-keep wet) do a few times to each hole with the straw attached, shake out excess.
The other cleaning method is too take the whole unit a part--you dont need to do this just a forward adjustment on the threaded brass stud--nut side inside the WUR to move cold control pressure from 10-13 psi to near 20 psi.
Measuring with caliper is okay depth of threaded brass stud on top,,also important is getting the cold control pressure psi after each adjustment.
It takes a fairly strong wack to move that post, you'll see after a few taps here and there--its very stubborn to move, So start small taps measure any movement.
I measured 2 mm depth and 20-21 psi Cold Control Pressure and then plugged in 5 min or so later 52 psi, Warm Control Pressure. Close to the General Rule of 20/50....
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-22-2017 at 06:54 PM.
Member
When working with WUR to do the adjustments, my plastic line-return control pressure must have been more flexible--newer.. The feed control line had the rubber hose with gauge attached so its very flexible.
Just loosen the plastic line at the fuel distributor( rag underneath to catch gas seepage) and move the fuel distributor to top of throttle body to make adjustments by tapping method--then move back down and set inside engine bay,,retightened the banjo bolt and your good to test your adjustment, measure the depth of brass bolt as well top side by caliper to get idea of how much adjustment is necessary.
What Robert mentioned-the table is the engine temperature and measuring its temperature which by thermodynamics will be the same for the WUR or so near to be negligible, Heat travels from hot to cold and once in equilibrium they have the same temperature--zeroth law of thermodynamics--which gave rise to the ordinary thermometer.. and setting cold control pressure psi at this temperature.
Installing the WUR each time,temperature measuring, testing and then adjusting can be very time consuming,,finding the WUR cold control pressure by having uninstalled is much easier to make adjustments and less time consuming--this is where the 20/50 general rule came from a much faster method of calibrating the WUR.
The Wur Im running was calibrated and totally rebuilt at Fuel Injection Corporation with there modern equipment, temperature compensations and so forth, upon removing the WUR and testing as I outlined it has come up to near 20/50 for 4 years.... the 20/50 rule has been out there for a very long time... credit where credit is due.
To Recap The Spare Wur I got to and did:
Cold control pressure (unplugged wur) uninstalled was 32 psi,,made some adjustments went to 7 psi,,then further adjustments 20-22 psi--just right,,warm pressure plugged in wur 52 psi-just right again, 20/50 calibration general rule again.
When I first remove the WUR, I disconnect both lines at the Fuel distributor, unplug, remove, ect.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-23-2017 at 11:33 PM.
Member
Hi Randy, thanks for the tip!
But.. did you mean, "move the WUR to top of throttle body ...?"
My WUR lines are supple and soft and shouldn't mind the disturbance one bit if I find my pressures in need of adjustment
-David
Member
Yes,,Move the Wur to the top of the throttle body,Thanks for catching it.
One Plastic Line and one rubber line from test equipment with gauge--leaving the lines(wur and test equipment) installed further speeds up the adjustment process...
When working with WUR to do the adjustments, my plastic line-return control pressure must have been more flexible--newer.. The feed control line had the rubber hose with gauge attached so its very flexible.
Just loosen the plastic line at the fuel distributor( rag underneath to catch gas seepage) and move the fuel distributor--change to move the WUR to top of throttle body to make adjustments by tapping method--then move back down and set inside engine bay,,retightened the banjo bolt and your good to test your adjustment, measure the depth of brass bolt as well top side by calpier to get idea of how much adjustment is necessary.
When these are re-manufactured from Fuel Injection Corp or CIS Flowtech--they are calibrated, Larry @ CIS flowtech told me that the only things reused is the shells-all new internals,,when one gets cold control pressure dialed in and the WUR is plugged in for warm control pressure-if you dont get the correct warm control pressure---this points to the heating coil and this has to be changed out from a good one--or send it in for re-manufacture.. Should know earlier if there is a problem 20-22 Ohms resistance is typical,,"0" or "1"--broken coil-the heating element on the bimetal bar.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-24-2017 at 10:50 AM.
Member
I have installed the new return fuel line after another filter soak- no leak, but cold pressure is only around 12psi. I kept the WUR unattached to the engine and as I was checking for pressure and I pushed an allen wrench through the hole on the underside of the WUR (to push the bar into a "warm" position). The pressure went up- indicating that I need to adjust the bar- right? I have read and reread your posts and am having a hard time figuring out how to adjust this bar. I am assuming I need to crack the WUR open, tap on the brass nut, close back up and test?
Insight would be appreciated!
I hope you fellas find this before my east coast day is gone...
Thanks in advance!
Member
Good to hear you sourced one, yes bar needs to adjust closer in to raise cold control pressure.
Correct,, crack the WUR open, tap on the brass nut, close up and test,,I used a micrometer and measured the outside of the brass stud depth in the hole--get an idea of what depth is related to what cold control pressure helpful. It will probably take a good wack to move it,,start by tapping and testing and then you'll have an idea of what the post is doing as far as movement.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-29-2017 at 12:00 PM.
Member
Thank you Randy.
One of the corner screws is not budging... Bout to completely strip it out- not a fan of flat head screws. PB Blaster is soaking now.
Member
John, I found my spare Kit I made before I bought a new Kit-Company Made,, If your tired of eyeballing this will measure fuel pump pressure-system pressure, cold, warm and rest control pressure from there you make adjustments if needed and measure it.
DSCI0082.JPGDSCI0083.JPG
Randy
- - - Updated - - -
Heat it also--quickly,, if you dont have a burner, a few matches or a lighter will work--dry off the area before heating and cooling to bust the rust loose.
Randy
Member
Today-
Not sure how many times I pulled and put the WUR on/off the gauge. I opened it up and tapped out the post. Put it back together, got a reading pf 45psi. Thought I had messed up because all of the pressure was on the supply side. That led me to taking the WUR all the way apart (into the sacred inner chamber) and cleaning and reassembling. I thought I had messed up because prior to disassembly and tappage, the WUR would let air pass through from supply to return. This was not the case after all because the WUR was doing its job (informed by Mr Cook).
I then put it back on, tapped the post back down to a reading of 16psi. pulled it off, opened it up, tapped it back out, put it back on and gently nudged it to 26psi (recommended for an '83 at 75F). Tested warm- 45psi (within the range per the book How to Tune and Modify Bosch Fuel injection).
What I learned- I am getting a spare WUR and am going to modify with a pull screw in the post so future tuning will be a breeze. Oh- and that you can read all you want, but to know a WUR, one must learn a WUR.
Taking it out for a spin this weekend to see if that cleared up the stutter and hiccup.
Thank you for the encouragement and advice.
Member
All the pressure on the supply side?
Do you mean the wur inlet? (wur inlet has the screen/filter in it). This wur inlet is the pressure side. The wur outlet is suppose to have ~Zero pressure (goes to fuel-tank return, via ports on fuel dist).
I may have misinterpreted what you said
Last edited by epmedia; 08-29-2017 at 06:18 PM.
Tbd
Member
You tap on the post on both sides to get the correct cold control pressure--tapping the post with nut on inside raises cold control pressure, tapping the post on outside lowers cold control pressure. Its a process of tapping outside and inside till you get to around 20 psi- cold control pressure---with it detached from motor and that is it.
As Robert said the measured pressure is all on the control pressure feed line as this is where the pentil or dowel is engaging the flexible plate to raise and lower cold control pressure by lowering or increasing the fuel going thru the feed line to the return line and thus the related lowering and increasing cold control pressure psi, measured.
Going further,,this cold control pressure effects the metering piston in the fuel distributor--lower Cold Control pressure allows the meter piston to admit more fuel per air volume(set by 3mm hex screw) thus a richer startup--necessary,,then as the wur moves from cold to warm the pressure goes up-the metering piston admits less fuel per air volume and thus leaning out additional fuel ,the o2 sensor-ECU-Fuel Valve takes care of enrichment/leaning by cycles after this.
For 77-79 or ones with no O2 sensor/fuel adjustment- the cold control pressure needs more attention to detail to get the best enrichment/leaning of fuel the wur can do for easier startup and running.
For these I'd start by using the 20/50 general rule and then adjust to best startup/running performance, some will start/run best at lower than 20/50 ,at 20/50,or higher than 20/50-this is due to the aging of the AAV, CSV ,WUR and wiring and so forth .
This is why it is recommended to do all adjustment with new tune up items installed , to get a stable start/run to work with, then check timing, and idle, it can be done without new goodies installed also.
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-30-2017 at 12:42 AM.
Member
Robert-
You interpreted correctly. Realoem calls that fuel line the fuel feed line (I took liberty and called that side the supply side).
Randy-
I took it off the car to tap on the inside. I see now that you mentioned it not needing to be removed from the car for this adjustment. For the record- it is a delicate operation with older lines and I found that a tap that was a bit too aggressive can swing the pressure substantially.
I have seen varying recommended pressure values for cold and warm. I settled on the ones recommended for a 1983 320i from the book How to Tune and Modify Bosch Fuel Injection by Ben Watson. I value your experience and opinion. Moving forward I will make adjustments using the 20/50 rule to accommodate for the aging players.
When you say "new tune up items", how deep are you going? I assume you mean plugs, wires and filters- am I missing something?
I am also guessing from your comments that the WUR will need to be revisited as time goes by.
And let's be honest- there is great value in doing it the long way and then finding the short cut.
Thanks again!
Member
New tune up items--standard, plugs,filters and so forth so that these items dont effect the adjustment , they are in good working order.
,
As far as using the table or 20/50 or other guide its not an issue,,the table or 20/50 gets you in the area where its adjusted and the car starts and runs well.
As too revisiting the WUR, I check it once a year at tune up time with the CIS equipment installed, in 4 years after getting it rebuilt by Fuel Injection Corp(Bob and Kathy White) have not had to adjust it,right around 20/50 by the method I outlined,,,..
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 08-31-2017 at 11:18 AM.
Member
If you want to upgrade the wiring and load reduce the fuel pump relay--taxed quite a bit, the following will do it,,top image is as it is and bottom image is the upgrade,,all part numbers are listed and available, I have been running this for some time no problems,,fast version is the Fuel Pump relay is now protected from flyback of lambda relay and the WUR and AAV has its own dedicated relay to power them so the Fuel pump relay is not providing power for 2 fuel pumps, the WUR and AAV--the load on the fuel pump relay has gone down a tremendous amount-by adding in a dedicated relay , now the fuel pump relay supplies power to 2 fuel pumps-a dedicated relay and very small signal voltage to two relays. Back Story on this is quite unique. The WUR/AAV is no longer being taxed for Voltage and the associated amperage to run them.
Rough draft of blueprinting a section of the electrical system of an E21 before and after.
IMG.pdf
Randy
Last edited by 320iAman; 09-02-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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