[STEREO] Build Help - 2001 M Roadster

[danxor]

I don't know if I should post this here, or in the Car AV section... so I did both. I thought the Z3 folks might be more knowledgeable on this topic.

Last week I went to a very high-end Car AV shop in the area and was given the following build suggestion:

• Head Unit - Alpine CDE-HD149BT

• Amp - JL Audio XD500/3

• Sub - JL Audio 10TW1-4 (installed in the passenger foot well, shop owner claims the stock sub location never works well no matter what you put in there)

• Component speakers - Hertz MPK 165P.3 (in stock foot well, and door locations; behind seat speakers to be left disconnected)

I'm not sure how I feel about losing the foot well space, as well as not utilizing the behind seat mid speakers. And I'd really like to see if a touch screen HU (like the Pioneer ones) might work. Any comments, critiques, suggestions, etc. appreciated.

[z3forlife]

The stock sub location works great as long as you replace it with a 8" sub and top firing enclosure. Don't give up your foot well your passenger will thank you. I would use the rear speakers too. If you have the 4" rears then replacements are easily available. Everything is wired to the trunk where the stock amp(s) is so to fully utilize the jl amp you would need 3 pairs of rca cables ran there. There's lots of info here on upgraded audio options

[dennisljacob]

How big is your budget? If you want to do it right, you'll need to figure on replacing everything. The factory amp and system is split up and you can't just change drivers without changing the amplifiers and then adding crossover networks. If you don't want to put more holes in your doors, you'll be quite restricted as to what will fit. And if you car is anything like my '98MZ3, the super tweeter and regular tweeter will fall apart as you take the door panel off. They are .....well not worth much. I've purchased and returned the BAV auto solution and decided to go custom all the way. That includes a new digital processor with active crossover functions. The little speakers behind the seats won't do squat with the top down. With good replacement drivers, they might help a little with the top up or with the hard top on if you have one. The price for the best drivers are not cheap. But trying to hear the audio system with the top down is a challenge on the freeway or at speed. Integral Audio has probably the best subwoofer solution unless you are able to fabricate a custom fitted enclosure. Don't try to put anything behind your or the passenger seat. There is just not enough leg room and adjustments worth loosing that space for maybe a larger diameter driver. Besides that is not what makes bass frequencies. You need to have a sub driver mated to the right size enclosure with the right motor system and amplifier. If you're careful you can fit a Pioneer AV head unit that motors out and gives a bigger screen to work with. It will block the center vent outlet when open. But you push a button and it closes and you can control it with the system buttons or your smart phone.

Best of luck, working in/on a Z3 for audio is a challenge.

[danxor]

How big is your budget? If you want to do it right, you'll need to figure on replacing everything.

The plan is to keep this car forever, so I am not afraid to sink some money into it the AV. I think 2-3k is what I had in mind. I suppose I just really want to make sure I've weighed the options and am making an informed decision before I throw down ~$1500 in labor. I had done a bit of reading here and elsewhere, but hadn't seen anything similar to what the shop I visited suggested; most people seem to go for smaller subs in the existing location along with drop-in speaker replacements, and a budget HU. That said, I'm probably more of an audiophile than most, and am all for spending money on enthusiast level parts. Furthermore, I would love to learn how to do this kind of work myself, but if the best option includes a custom sub box and cutting the door panels it's probably going to be a wise decision for me to have a shop do the work.

The little speakers behind the seats won't do squat with the top down.

It seems like trying to utilize these these speakers is just a bad decision all around. I'm certain at this point that the sound staging, space limitation, and increased amp demand issues far outweigh the benefits one would gain from upgrading these.

Integral Audio has probably the best subwoofer solution unless you are able to fabricate a custom fitted enclosure.

Initially I was dead set on the IA 81S, even despite the price tag, since it's the only drop-in sub replacement option. But the shop I consulted with was adamant about not putting a sub in the stock location (even one that fires upwards) because the low frequencies have nothing to reflect off of. He claimed whenever he'd done it in the past, no matter the sub size/quality or hours spent on fabricating an enclosure, it just sounded drowned out.


PS: Thanks for your recent mirror solution Dennis!

[Mr Bingley]

if you're talking about spending $2-3K total, and out of that $1500 on labor, you're not budgeting enough for equipment. $3k in equipment is a more realistic budget for a good enough sound system (far more for an audiophile system). That being said, don't loose sight of the fact that it's a roadster, and the system will be competing with wind noise so long as you are in motion. The 81S is in fact a very effective enclosure if you drive its Alumipro 8" sub with enough raw power and install a lot of Dynamat. You should listen to some installed systems before hacking into the doors--it is not necessary in order to achieve very good sound--certainly good enough for the car--I'm guessing there are some good systems in your metro area and the owners are members of this forum.

[z3forlife]

Cutting the door panels really isn't necessary. I'm sure ther are component speakers that will fit the stock pod openings. I used MB Quart pro series and the tweeter fit the mid-tweeter hole perfectly. One large tweeter pointed at your head you'll find is more than adequate. I removed the grill from the pod and inserted from the front so I would have any clearance problems when reinstalling the door card. I reused the stock harness plug and it was a breeze. As long as your sub box is firmly attached to the car you'll feel it. How much power are you looking at in terms of wattage.

[danxor]

if you're talking about spending $2-3K total, and out of that $1500 on labor, you're not budgeting enough for equipment. $3k in equipment is a more realistic budget for a good enough sound system (far more for an audiophile system). That being said, don't loose sight of the fact that it's a roadster, and the system will be competing with wind noise so long as you are in motion.

Agreed. That figure was my initial estimate was when planning to do this work myself. It's a coincidence that when I went to the shop and asked the owner what he would do if this was his car that the cost was about the same.

The 81S is in fact a very effective enclosure if you drive its Alumipro 8" sub with enough raw power and install a lot of Dynamat. You should listen to some installed systems before hacking into the doors--it is not necessary in order to achieve very good sound--certainly good enough for the car--I'm guessing there are some good systems in your metro area and the owners are members of this forum.

This seems to be the major point of contention for me. I just don't know enough yet to make an informed decision. Prior to visiting this shop I sent an email to the shop's owner with a link to the 81S asking for his opinion. When he spoke in person he dismissed the 81S due to his past work on Z3s leading him to a firm stance that nothing works really well in the stock sub location due to the sound staging issues. When I asked if dynamat would alleviate the staging problem at all, he assured me it would not. His rationale was that in the stock location (despite subs being non-directional) an upward firing sub just fires into the air (or fabric), and a forward facing sub just hits the glass for the most part. I asked if a trunk sub was a good idea and he dismissed that as well since the trunk is all metal. This was why he was dead set on a passenger foot well sub. He was confident that was the only location on the Z3 that had enough surrounding structure for the low freqs to not be drowned out. I don't enough to know if he's absolutely right, but fwiw this shop has tremendous reviews (both online and word-of-mouth) from their 30+yrs in business, which is why I went to consult with them in the first place. And to be perfectly clear, it was not as though he wouldn't install something I specifically asked for, it was more that he didn't have confidence I would be content with that kind of setup.

At this point I'm pretty torn about the sub, so I think your suggestion to hear someone else's setup is a really good idea. I would definitely like to make friends with some people in the Bay Area in order to learn from their expertise in general.

[danxor]

Cutting the door panels really isn't necessary. I'm sure ther are component speakers that will fit the stock pod openings. I used MB Quart pro series and the tweeter fit the mid-tweeter hole perfectly. One large tweeter pointed at your head you'll find is more than adequate. I removed the grill from the pod and inserted from the front so I would have any clearance problems when reinstalling the door card. I reused the stock harness plug and it was a breeze. As long as your sub box is firmly attached to the car you'll feel it. How much power are you looking at in terms of wattage.

I'm not really interested in doing it either tbh. I think that was probably an simple "go-to" choice from the shop owner. I don't doubt that the MPK 165P.3's are quality, but I think there's probably comparable options that fit the existing openings. My first consideration was the Infinity Kappa 50.11cs.

Can't say I've thought about a figure for wattage either. Obviously, I've still got a lot of study to do... were you inquiring about overall system wattage, or just the sub specific wattage?

[z3forlife]

Overall wattage. I'm running 60wattsx4 and 250x1 to speakers rated to 90watts rms and sub to 300w. The mb quart woofer on my passenger side blew out not long after install. I think a manufacturing defect more than over power according to its specs. I bought alpine S type 51/4 components and replaced both woofers and kept the mb quart tweets and crossovers because I really like their sound/fit and the crossovers were tuned fine. The frequency response of the alpines was very close so no problem. The infinities are fine but I'd shop the price. im sure most of the forum members who have the 8" whether IA or otherwise will attest it's good enough and a massive improvement over stock. Reuse the stock enclosure mounts and like mr bingley said wrap the interior of the space where the sub box goes with dynamat. This is to mainly help reduce unwanted vibrations/buzzing during loud play. Trunks a loser cause it's sealed tight(unless you like the sound of body panels rattling ��). The problem with putting the sub in the passenger area is getting power to it. You want amp power cables as short as possible and preferably direct to the battery to reduce chances of alternator noise/buzz inducing into the system. I've driven cross country several times in both my roadsters and space is a real premium both up front and in the trunk.

[z3forlife]

Oh and by the way I spent under $800 for every thing ( alpine 5 channel,mb quart pro components,alpine r type woofer replacement and 4" alpine rears,sub box and driver. 1st install using stock head 2nd install had a alpine hu and rca cables already installed). I did the entire install on a Saturday.

[Mr Bingley]

I'm sure your sound shop guy is correct that sacrificing the passenger's footwell to a sub enclosure is the best sub solution if the sub is the most important aspect of the entire car--ideally you remove the passenger's seat altogether, move the battery location there and replace it with a massive deep cycle unit, mount all amps, crosses, sound processors and cables there in a sealed plexiglass box with the cars entire air conditioning output redirected to it, add a dedicated laptop for signal processing control, and recover the entire interior in acoustic foam. However, if the sound system is not the most important consideration for the car, and you would like to, say, drive it, on occasion, then your approach is necessarily going to involve some compromises --like not putting anything in the footwell which is already too small for comfort. I would be completely put off by his suggestion of cutting holes in the doors, as to me that suggests that he thinks nothing of destroying parts of your car in the install process and will do so as a matter of routine--that suggestion alone would have me running for the hills.

[khammack]

I'm sure your sound shop guy is correct that sacrificing the passenger's footwell to a sub enclosure is the best sub solution if the sub is the most important aspect of the entire car--ideally you remove the passenger's seat altogether, move the battery location there and replace it with a massive deep cycle unit, mount all amps, crosses, sound processors and cables there in a sealed plexiglass box with the cars entire air conditioning output redirected to it, add a dedicated laptop for signal processing control, and recover the entire interior in acoustic foam. However, if the sound system is not the most important consideration for the car, and you would like to, say, drive it, on occasion, then your approach is necessarily going to involve some compromises --like not putting anything in the footwell which is already too small for comfort. I would be completely put off by his suggestion of cutting holes in the doors, as to me that suggests that he thinks nothing of destroying parts of your car in the install process and will do so as a matter of routine--that suggestion alone would have me running for the hills.

1+++++++

[danxor]

Oh and by the way I spent under $800 for every thing ( alpine 5 channel,mb quart pro components,alpine r type woofer replacement and 4" alpine rears,sub box and driver. 1st install using stock head 2nd install had a alpine hu and rca cables already installed). I did the entire install on a Saturday.

Thanks, this is the kind of post that's super helpful to me. Seeing what other people have done (and for how much) allows me to do that cost/benefit analysis for myself.

[danxor]

I'm sure your sound shop guy is correct that sacrificing the passenger's footwell to a sub enclosure is the best sub solution if the sub is the most important aspect of the entire car--ideally you remove the passenger's seat altogether, move the battery location there and replace it with a massive deep cycle unit, mount all amps, crosses, sound processors and cables there in a sealed plexiglass box with the cars entire air conditioning output redirected to it, add a dedicated laptop for signal processing control, and recover the entire interior in acoustic foam. However, if the sound system is not the most important consideration for the car, and you would like to, say, drive it, on occasion, then your approach is necessarily going to involve some compromises --like not putting anything in the footwell which is already too small for comfort. I would be completely put off by his suggestion of cutting holes in the doors, as to me that suggests that he thinks nothing of destroying parts of your car in the install process and will do so as a matter of routine--that suggestion alone would have me running for the hills.

When I walked in there and saw him doing 5 figure jobs on some classic big bodies I knew to take his suggestions with a grain of salt. In his defense, he did suggest that after I told him my gf was on the shorter side, regardless I don't think it's the right way to go. It seemed too copy/paste. Which is I why I wanted to double-check with you great people, to see if any of what he suggested was worth considering.