Primary reason(s) you prefer the z4 over the z3?

[Colo Springs E]

I'm in the market for a z3 or a z4.

I like the looks of the z3 better.... but they are obviously older, and are usually higher mileage and not in as pristine condition as the z4's I've seen. Of course they are also (typically) cheaper--at least the initial purchase price

Just curious for those of you who prefer the 4 over the 3, is it primarily because it is a newer/improved car? Or do you like the looks better as well?

I'm not crazy about the looks of the front end of the 4, but I'm mostly interested in finding a good performing sports car that will be reasonably reliable, so I'm starting to lean toward it over the z3. I've had a really bad run of luck looking at 3s in the past couple of weeks... all have turned out to be pretty worn looking with flaws not mentioned in the ads.

[wdb]

Z3 was originally designed for a 4-cylinder engine. The later cars with higher HP 6-cylinder engines placed stress on the rear subframe, leading to potential cracking. The Z3 mechanicals in general are a bit of a mishmash, made up of front end from one car and rear end from another, older, BMW. The Z3 roadster is a very cute, extremely popular car. The Z3 'clown shoe' coupe is an acquired taste (I like them). Z3 owners are a very friendly, very loyal bunch.

Z4 was designed from the start to handle the power. It is not a parts bin 'frankenstein' and shares a lot of parts with the E46 line. The roadster styling seems to leave a lot of people unimpressed - although not me, I like them. The Z4 coupe has structural rigidity that ranks up there with supercars.

Both cars will give you a very satisfying driving experience. If troublefree motoring is your primary goal buy a Honda -- just kidding! The later Z4's with the N52 engine have a good reputation for being reliable and relatively economical to maintain. Tread carefully around the SMG automatics, apparently they can be troublesome and there is some sort of pump that costs an exorbitant sum to replace.

[Outrider]

There are good reasons for both. I'm a coupe guy, but that probably doesn't make too much of a difference. I compare based off my experiences with a '00 Z3 Coupé (M52, 5MT) and a '07 Z4 Coupé (N52, 6MT).

Though an obvious point, the Z4 is a generation newer. Headlights are better, HVAC is better, electronics are better, and it's got a six speed MT available. The N52 is a great engine.

The Z3 does everything it needs to competently or better, but there are no real frills--which I find to be a good thing. There's more room inside and the visibility is much better than in the Z4. The steering is great--not as fidgety as the electronic Z4 system. The 2.8 M52 isn't as powerful as the N52, but the car is no slouch for being about two decades old.

If you're going with a roadie, give some serious consideration to the top and to how it reacts when broken, leaky, or both. Tops eventually go. They also eventually leak somewhere. Factor those points into your decision.

Lastly, drive them both as you would for your expected pattern of use. The Z4C is quieter on long drives, but also more cramped. The Z4 has horrible drink holders, the door bins are nearly inaccessible, and the glove compartment is hard to use and not worth the trouble. I ended up with sheepskin seat covers on the Z4C as its standard seats don't have much cushion. I retrofitted the Z3C with M Coupé seats, which are fairly comfortable and much more comfortable than the non-sport Z3 seats. But if you're only using the car 30 minutes at a time, this is less of a consideration.

Best of luck as you work through this.

[BimmerBreaker]

Z3 M roadster > Z4 M roadster > Z4 3.0si > Z3 3.0 > Z4 3.0 > Z3 2.8 > Z3 2.5 > Z4 2.5 > Z3 1.9

Not all Z3's are neglected, if thats what you want keep looking. In "Decent Z4 price range" you can find some real cherry Z3's just have to be a little patient

[Outrider]

Z3 M roadster > Z4 M roadster > Z4 3.0si > Z3 3.0 > Z4 3.0 > Z3 2.8 > Z3 2.5 > Z4 2.5 > Z3 1.9

Not all Z3's are neglected, if thats what you want keep looking. In "Decent Z4 price range" you can find some real cherry Z3's just have to be a little patient

Interesting that you've worked out the hierarchy. My guess is that you have experience with all or nearly all of these.

To the OP... BB is right, there are some well kept Z3s out there.

[chickdr]

Z3 M roadster > Z4 M roadster > Z4 3.0si > Z3 3.0 > Z4 3.0 > Z3 2.8 > Z3 2.5 > Z4 2.5 > Z3 1.9

Not all Z3's are neglected, if thats what you want keep looking. In "Decent Z4 price range" you can find some real cherry Z3's just have to be a little patient

Out of curiosity, what in your opinion makes the Z3MR better than the Z4MR? I would be concerned about several things with the Z3MR. Assuming you are talking about the S54 Z3M, it will be an earlier version of the S54 and have more of the issues which were addressed down the line in the Z4M's motor(other than the hub bolts and tabs which continued), also the subframe issue will be the worse in the Z3M with its extra power. Lastly, the Z3 has nowhere near the torsional rigidity of the E85 Z4 platform which is the biggest reason to go with the Z4 IMHO. Looks will always be in the Z3's favor though. Much more of a classic/timeless design for sure.

[BimmerBreaker]

Interesting that you've worked out the hierarchy. My guess is that you have experience with all or nearly all of these.

To the OP... BB is right, there are some well kept Z3s out there.

Correct. I have driven all but the Z3 1.9 and Z4 3.0 but have ample experience in both those chassis and engines to be able to - I think - fairly accurately deduce where they'd slot in

Out of curiosity, what in your opinion makes the Z3MR better than the Z4MR? I would be concerned about several things with the Z3MR. Assuming you are talking about the S54 Z3M, it will be an earlier version of the S54 and have more of the issues which were addressed down the line in the Z4M's motor(other than the hub bolts and tabs which continued), also the subframe issue will be the worse in the Z3M with its extra power. Lastly, the Z3 has nowhere near the torsional rigidity of the E85 Z4 platform which is the biggest reason to go with the Z4 IMHO. Looks will always be in the Z3's favor though. Much more of a classic/timeless design for sure.

I am talking about *any* Z3 M roadster. The S54 in the Z3's has a lower redline and less output and do not have rod bearing failures anywhere close to the extent that early E46 M3 engines did. All other S54 problems are shared throughout the production run. The S52 on the other hand has less output but is also substantially more reliable than the S54's. And yes the Z3 has trunkfloor problems, but not all cars are affected and I personally beleive that by and large if a problem was going to happen it'd have happened by now. So do a good inspection to verify the health of the trunkfloor but if its good I wouldnt worry about it too much. The entry point of a Z3MR vs Z4MR will also cover a trunkfloor reinforcement (and if an S52 Z3MR, there will be enough leftover to buy a supercharger to bridge that power difference too!).

Why do I think its better? Its more raw. Its more fun. The Z4 yes has more torsional rigidity. When I daily drove my Z4 I remember thinking "it feels like this chassis was carved from a solid block of aluminum" and thats great. It's performance ceiling is way way higher on the Z4M vs. the Z3M. As a track car, 100% take the Z4 over the Z3. Anywhere else? The Z3 won't be as fast and it won't pull as many G's in the corner and it won't tell you where to go on it's navigation screen. It won't do any of that, but what it will do - guaranteed - is put a big smile on the face of whoever is driving it.

I feel content driving a Z4 fast. It's planted, stable and capable. But it's almost robotic... almost sterile in it's delivery and feedback.
But I feel happy driving a Z3 fast. It's more on edge, more raw. I'm the one driving it. I can feel what the car is doing, it communicates every inch of the road to the driver.

You grab a Z3 by the scruff of the neck and toss it around, whereas a Z4 you just sit in and point it left or right...

I could think of more analogies if needed...

[Knowthebattle]

BB,

Could the feeling of point and go be due to the EPS in the non-M Z4s?

[chickdr]

Correct. I have driven all but the Z3 1.9 and Z4 3.0 but have ample experience in both those chassis and engines to be able to - I think - fairly accurately deduce where they'd slot in

I am talking about *any* Z3 M roadster. The S54 in the Z3's has a lower redline and less output and do not have rod bearing failures anywhere close to the extent that early E46 M3 engines did. All other S54 problems are shared throughout the production run. The S52 on the other hand has less output but is also substantially more reliable than the S54's. And yes the Z3 has trunkfloor problems, but not all cars are affected and I personally beleive that by and large if a problem was going to happen it'd have happened by now. So do a good inspection to verify the health of the trunkfloor but if its good I wouldnt worry about it too much. The entry point of a Z3MR vs Z4MR will also cover a trunkfloor reinforcement (and if an S52 Z3MR, there will be enough leftover to buy a supercharger to bridge that power difference too!).

Why do I think its better? Its more raw. Its more fun. The Z4 yes has more torsional rigidity. When I daily drove my Z4 I remember thinking "it feels like this chassis was carved from a solid block of aluminum" and thats great. It's performance ceiling is way way higher on the Z4M vs. the Z3M. As a track car, 100% take the Z4 over the Z3. Anywhere else? The Z3 won't be as fast and it won't pull as many G's in the corner and it won't tell you where to go on it's navigation screen. It won't do any of that, but what it will do - guaranteed - is put a big smile on the face of whoever is driving it.

I feel content driving a Z4 fast. It's planted, stable and capable. But it's almost robotic... almost sterile in it's delivery and feedback.
But I feel happy driving a Z3 fast. It's more on edge, more raw. I'm the one driving it. I can feel what the car is doing, it communicates every inch of the road to the driver.

You grab a Z3 by the scruff of the neck and toss it around, whereas a Z4 you just sit in and point it left or right...

I could think of more analogies if needed...

Thanks for the answer. What is funny is your Z3 vs Z4 comparo is that is what Top Gear about about the Z4M vs the Boxster S....

[BimmerBreaker]

BB,

Could the feeling of point and go be due to the EPS in the non-M Z4s?

I don't think so. The feeling is of course radically different with the EPS vs. the "standard" setup in the Z4M, but the car's responsiveness to inputs (regardless of whether those inputs were through EPS or hydraulic) is mostly due to the suspension design on the Z4. It's quick turn-in and response isn't necessarily imo a bad thing, just a feature of the car. And anyways I was really more referring to how it feels like the driver is more "along for the ride" in the Z4 just merely from the fact that the car has so much performance potential that at 50% of the car's potential most casual drivers are at 100% of their limits. Z3M on the other hand is a little yapping dog always wanting to do a little more, go a little faster, the Z3's 100% may be less than the Z4's 100% but I think most drivers can get closer to the limits in the Z3, which makes it more fun.

Thanks for the answer. What is funny is your Z3 vs Z4 comparo is what Top Gear about about the Z4M vs the Boxster S....

Been a long time since Ive seen that clip, will have to check it out... I dont remember who won, think the z4 though?

[chickdr]

I wouldn't say it won. It just depends on what you like. The Boxster S is like a scalpel and the MR is like a machete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FTcr2IFeg0