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Thread: Dead Battery?

  1. #26
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    tek.to, sounds worse and worse. Also, don't let people jump your car from the battery. Always use the terminals under the hood. Jumping direct at the battery can roast modules....

    Have you checked out all the ground points on the car? The big ground harness from the AC compressor to chassis? The ground on the strut tower under the passenger air cabin? Have you opened the e-box to check if any of those fuses inside (small black box) are dead?

    Does your car still have a wet floorboard? If any water reached the passenger floorboard, all hell can break loose...

  2. #27
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    OK.

    At this point:
    - No lights on the dash ever now (hard to read the story in the shorty posts but no door lights either?)
    - Battery tests good
    - Interior power all comes on when being jumped


    Thoughts:

    Id be looking real close at battery connections and ground straps before spending a dime. At same time I'd be looking real close at passenger footwells. (has it been wet / rainy where you are?)

    There's a scenario where a high resistance short is pulling current and voltage down so that even the jumping doesn't provide enough power to the starter.

    I'd propose some of the big mega-fuses back at the battery (or the assploding battery terminal device as mench'd before), as there's a scenario where those blow but when you attach power to the jumper connections under hood you power up the car 'around' that, however the hood-jump still don't work so, seems less likely... (BTW if you DID get a start in a case like that where the battery is essentially disconnected completely, it'd be alternator death to pull the jumpers off w/ the car running, just FYI)

    Also: If a connection was deteriorating and dropped system voltage way down blah blah blah and modules were struggling/hanging/rebooting from low volts, there's a scenario where your EWS became un-sync'd during the low-voltage events so you may now have a 'secondary problem'. But I wouldn't worry about that until you have all your proper power back and the car cranks strongly on its own.

    Lastly - are you SURE the battery test was a robust one? (more than just a meter on the terminals?) For sure I've seen batteries that show a happy strong no-load voltage but then fall flat when you try to draw from them whatsoever, and a real dead battery can screw up a car even from jump starting. I think Stephen made this point already but ... well I just made it again.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
    Always use the terminals under the hood. Jumping direct at the battery can roast modules....
    Yeah I'm gonna politely call BS on this.

    Ironically the old wive's boogie man stories in Audi-land are "DON'T USE THE JUMP TERMINALS UNDER THE HOOOD! IT'LL BLOW MODULES!"

    There's no possible electrical reason why connecting cables at the battery will roast modules, given that both locations are connected electrically via large gauge copper cables / the entire steel shell of the car. Its not like there's a proximity thing - more than half the modules are closer to the jump terminals , but some are in the middle of the car, and for some equipment others are located right back by the battery.

    The only thing that's gonna roast modules is going to be a voltage spike and if both cars have properly functioning voltage regulators, and the cables are connected properly and well, there should be no reason that voltage spikes regardless of where you connect the cables.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Yeah I'm gonna politely call BS on this.

    Ironically the old wive's boogie man stories in Audi-land are "DON'T USE THE JUMP TERMINALS UNDER THE HOOOD! IT'LL BLOW MODULES!"

    There's no possible electrical reason why connecting cables at the battery will roast modules, given that both locations are connected electrically via large gauge copper cables / the entire steel shell of the car. Its not like there's a proximity thing - more than half the modules are closer to the jump terminals , but some are in the middle of the car, and for some equipment others are located right back by the battery.

    The only thing that's gonna roast modules is going to be a voltage spike and if both cars have properly functioning voltage regulators, and the cables are connected properly and well, there should be no reason that voltage spikes regardless of where you connect the cables.
    I've always wondered about this, it made no sense to me how two 12.6v batteries in parallel could equal more than 12.6v. even with a car running, it won't go over 14. And if there is a voltage spike, how would it affect anything different jumping from under the hood than the trunk?

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
    ...don't let people jump your car from the battery. Always use the terminals under the hood. Jumping direct at the battery can roast modules....
    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Yeah I'm gonna politely call BS on this. There's no possible electrical reason why connecting cables at the battery will roast modules, given that both locations are connected electrically via large gauge copper cables ... Its not like there's a proximity thing - more than half the modules are closer to the jump terminals ... The only thing that's gonna roast modules is going to be a voltage spike and if both cars have properly functioning voltage regulators, and the cables are connected properly and well, there should be no reason that voltage spikes regardless of where you connect the cables.
    May I politely step in-between these two points of view? I think there may be an agreeable compromise. I do think agree with suggesting the engine bay jump start terminals...and I do agree that jumping from the battery itself doesn't cause catastrophic destruction...but I have also read (over the decades) of damage to electrical modules/fuses when jumping directly to the battery more times than when jumping from the engine bay.

    I do recommend jump starting from the engine bay (if at all possible) not because jumping directly at the battery will cause catastrophic module destruction. But because it tends to lessen the chance of hooking up the jumper cables to the wrong terminals...which if done...can cause catastrophic end results (roasting of modules and blown fuses).

    Over the decades...we do hear of module or fuse failures from jumping directly from the battery more than when the engine bay terminals were used...but I don't think its the location that's the cause...but moreso...that the cables were probably hooked up backwards. But the problem with this theory is that it is rarely proven because the person that usually hooked up the cables is not telling the story (or if they did...they don't tell the whole truth)...but assumed because it usually happens to forum members that appear to not be seasoned DIY'ers and/or they had someone else hook up the cables that may not be familiar with BMW's use of reddish-brown negative battery cables.

    Again, the above is my personal hypothesis of why blown fuses/modules occurs sometimes when jumping directly to the battery...and why my recommendation is to use the engine bay location if at all possible. And if jumping directly to the battery...be sure to hook up to the correct terminal & to follow the correct procedure as outlined/suggested in the owners manual. And if allowing someone else to connect the cables...MAKE SURE they actually select the correct pos/neg battery posts and not just blindly or inattentively hook up the cables without looking for the "+" & "-". Especially since the reddish-brown negative battery cable is more than likely the first cable one sees...and most people are programmed to see a BLACK negative battery cable.

    {E39 battery...with its reddish-brown negative battery cable on the right side in pics below}





    {the instructions for jumper cable hook up procedure may seem mundane/simple to some...but for noobs that are just developing their DIY skills/chops...simple mistakes can be turned into complications}

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Yeah I'm gonna politely call BS on this. ......
    Well heck .... i coulda sworn I read the er... ahem.... BS inscribed on a tablet from the mountaintop but you make good points as usual.

  7. #32
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    I like your theory and fully agree. Dim trunk, brown looks reddish, black assploding terminal thing is clearly black... not really paying attention. Zapppp.

    FWIW in Audi land I constantly argued against the myth and suggested that the engine bay jump terminals engineered by the Audigods were perfectly excellent place to jump the car. And damn, old Audis have the battery stuck directly under the back seat, so really you had to want to go out of your way to go straight to the battery.

    So... didn't mean to suggest it was preferable to go to the battery, just that it should in no way be a problem as long as done properly.

    Now For Storytime:

    I once jumped a motorcycle of mine by blithely hooking it up to an old Cadillac that some chick had, where DOH!!! turns out some prior rocket surgeon had used a red cable for ground and black cable for positive cuz uhhh I guess that's what he had for length-matching.... Miraculously it didn't burn the motorcycle to the ground somehow although there were fuses and melted wires to repair.... After the puff of smoke came from the bike and I pulled the cables it still took a while of WTF!?!?! HOW DID THAT HAPPEN!?!? to finally figure it out. Gigantic bulletproof Caddy battery/alternator of course was completely unfazed by the entire ordeal.

    I can't say its made me ALWAYS check the very battery itself, but I do probably check a lot closer / more often than I used to...
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  8. #33
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    Ok so this is extremely weird. Because my car is 50 minutes away from my house I decided to leave it there at work last night and drive the minivan to work today. I brought the "healthy/same" battery to the 528i. Hooked it up. All lights including trunk lights, door puddle lights turn on.... I start the car.... and it's just fine.... (however before I drove to work today I called the tow truck and he was there when I got to work so he ended up towing the 528i home because one person can't drive cars). Gonna scan the car with BMW 1.4 when I get off of work today... swear my car is going crazy.


    Also yes the driver floorboard has been wet but I haven't figured out why. The passenger floorboard, last time I checked were dry. The rear passenger did have a failing vapor last year, however I DIY fixed it myself. The drive side is still wet with water periodically dripping from the top of the door near your left foot (like if you close the door, it's where your knee is). I think it may be failing door seal but wouldn't that drip from the bottom of the door, where the puddle light is?

    Anyways, end of story is I'll scan the car and post the results.

    Thanks everyone


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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tek.to View Post
    ...Also yes the driver floorboard has been wet but I haven't figured out why.....
    Tek.to, if you haven't done this already, unclip the lid from the driver-side cabin filter housing, then remove the filter housing entirely so you can see down into the brake booster compartment where the booster and brake master and fluid reservoir are all located. That compartment is prone to flooding with rainwater and carwash water on these cars because of a tiny drainhole underneath the booster unit that gets clogged with debris. Just mentioning this because it could be the source of your water leak into the cabin.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tek.to View Post
    Ok so this is extremely weird. Because my car is 50 minutes away from my house I decided to leave it there at work last night and drive the minivan to work today. I brought the "healthy/same" battery to the 528i. Hooked it up. All lights including trunk lights, door puddle lights turn on.... I start the car.... and it's just fine.... (however before I drove to work today I called the tow truck and he was there when I got to work so he ended up towing the 528i home because one person can't drive cars). Gonna scan the car with BMW 1.4 when I get off of work today... swear my car is going crazy.


    Also yes the driver floorboard has been wet but I haven't figured out why. The passenger floorboard, last time I checked were dry. The rear passenger did have a failing vapor last year, however I DIY fixed it myself. The drive side is still wet with water periodically dripping from the top of the door near your left foot (like if you close the door, it's where your knee is). I think it may be failing door seal but wouldn't that drip from the bottom of the door, where the puddle light is?

    Anyways, end of story is I'll scan the car and post the results.

    Thanks everyone


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    Either flooding as already stated, or you just didn't have a good connection on one of the terminals

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  11. #36
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    Yea I've cleaned that place out and didn't see anything clogged. Could you take a pic of the hole so we're takings about the same one? Thanks


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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tek.to View Post
    Yea I've cleaned that place out and didn't see anything clogged. Could you take a pic of the hole so we're takings about the same one? Thanks


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    BlackBMWs has a good pic up, here's a link to that thread with pics. Probably best viewed on a computer display.

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...4#post18399134

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    Quote Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
    BlackBMWs has a good pic up, here's a link to that thread with pics. Probably best viewed on a computer display.

    http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...4#post18399134
    Yes I have checked that area and also hosed the place beneath the cabin filter and it all drained out the bottom rear of the front tire so it's good. I still don't know where the leak would be. I'm thinking maybe bad door seal on drivers side but it's dripping from the top of your left knee when you're fully seated in the car. Other thing would be the A pillar sunroof drain but the pillar isn't even wet when raining so I doubt its that.


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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tek.to View Post
    Other thing would be the A pillar sunroof drain but the pillar isn't even wet when raining so I doubt its that.
    Nope. That's the thing about the SR drains.

    The A-pillar trim is a hard plastic panel, and water can happily run down behind it without showing any signs whatsoever on the face. If you have a totally and completely disconnected SR drain AND its truly torrential rain yes its possible to see some wetness but its more common not to. I NEVER saw wetness when mine was bad and I had water splashing all down behind the dash and for sure a wet footwell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tek.to View Post
    Yes I have checked that area and also hosed the place beneath the cabin filter and it all drained out the bottom rear of the front tire so it's good. I still don't know where the leak would be. I'm thinking maybe bad door seal on drivers side but it's dripping from the top of your left knee when you're fully seated in the car. Other thing would be the A pillar sunroof drain but the pillar isn't even wet when raining so I doubt its that.
    Nope. That's the thing about the SR drains.

    The A-pillar trim is a hard plastic panel, and water can happily run down behind it without showing any signs whatsoever on the face. If you have a totally and completely disconnected SR drain AND its truly torrential rain yes its possible to see some wetness but its more common not to. I NEVER saw wetness when mine was bad and I had water splashing all down behind the dash and for sure a wet footwell.
    I was wondering who was gonna come up with what GG just did. Saw what TikTekToe posted last night, but was too tired to even care about posting anything. GG is correct. All the pillar trims are hard plastic, wait, hard brittle plastic with the cloth upolstered on to it.
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    Thanks. Will check out the pillar drain tomorrow. Also I've just scanned the car (and FYI I've cleared all the codes several months ago and this is what I found:

    Just FYI, the LCM faults are all my LEDs so ignore that. Also, for the speedometer faults, they've always been there just ignore that too. However the "Signal CAN" ,"Activation Solenoid Valve" and the "Power Up from GM III” are worrying me but I've seen them before. Ultimately though, I have never seen "steering column angle short circuit" and that's what worries me the most.

    Thanks
    Tek


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  17. #42
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    Your LEW seems to be missing. This aligns w the later ZKE error about steering angle.
    EWS also shows errors but you haven't posted those. Could be important.
    You shouldn't have the cluster checksum error for sure. Not sure why you're not sweating that one.
    CAN error - DME has at some point had trouble communicating to ABS/ASC. You should scan that also.
    "Power up GM III" is odd but that could have been from the voltage sag at some point.

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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Your LEW seems to be missing. This aligns w the later ZKE error about steering angle.
    EWS also shows errors but you haven't posted those. Could be important.
    You shouldn't have the cluster checksum error for sure. Not sure why you're not sweating that one.
    CAN error - DME has at some point had trouble communicating to ABS/ASC. You should scan that also.
    "Power up GM III" is odd but that could have been from the voltage sag at some point.

    Most importantly:

    Let's see Mom's Pictures.
    So what does the Cluster Checksum error mean? What about the steering angle one? What is LEW?

    Thanks
    Tek


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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Your LEW seems to be missing. This aligns w the later ZKE error about steering angle.
    EWS also shows errors but you haven't posted those. Could be important.
    You shouldn't have the cluster checksum error for sure. Not sure why you're not sweating that one.
    CAN error - DME has at some point had trouble communicating to ABS/ASC. You should scan that also.
    "Power up GM III" is odd but that could have been from the voltage sag at some point.

    Most importantly:

    Let's see Mom's Pictures.
    I think the '99 and '00 528i cars did not have DSC, but ASC+T, and lack a steering angle sensor. I get these same LEW errors in my car, from bmwscanner, and can confirm it has no sensor sandwiched between the forward/rear columns.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BimmrMeUpSnotty View Post
    I was wondering who was gonna come up with what GG just did. Saw what TikTekToe posted last night, but was too tired to even care about posting anything. GG is correct. All the pillar trims are hard plastic, wait, hard brittle plastic with the cloth upolstered on to it.
    Well that woulda been me, in his wet floorboard thread .... two months ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
    I think the '99 and '00 528i cars did not have DSC, but ASC+T, and lack a steering angle sensor. I get these same LEW errors in my car, from bmwscanner, and can confirm it has no sensor sandwiched between the forward/rear columns.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well that woulda been me, in his wet floorboard thread .... two months ago.
    I have a 2000 528 wagon, it has DSC, and I just replaced the angular steering sensor not 6 months ago.
    As for the kids sunroof leak, and removing the A pillar trim, common sense would think that he would have checked, especially after being told to. I don't get it. It's like we're all just being trolled. How can anybody have as many issues as this kid has with his car??? In all the years I have had E39's, hell, add in my E28 too, never have I ever had so many issues with my BMW's.
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    Here's what I did just now. I clicked recalculate the CHECKSUM and the error didn't pop up again so hoping that fixed it.

    Now as for the coding part, the only coding I ever did was for the LEDs I put in the car so it wouldn't check the bulbs. I've done no other programming.

    Also just reset all the codes again and the steering wheel angle sensor doesn't seem to be popping up so hope that sticks


    Thanks
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BimmrMeUpSnotty View Post
    I have a 2000 528 wagon, it has DSC, and I just replaced the angular steering sensor not 6 months ago.
    As for the kids sunroof leak, and removing the A pillar trim, common sense would think that he would have checked, especially after being told to. I don't get it. It's like we're all just being trolled. How can anybody have as many issues as this kid has with his car??? In all the years I have had E39's, hell, add in my E28 too, never have I ever had so many issues with my BMW's.
    I think not all 528 cars had DSC; some only came with ASC+T and those were not equipped with a steering angle sensor. bmwscanner doesn't compensate for that. Well ... this is what I think the situation was, but I wasn't in one of these cars back in the day....

  24. #49
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    Yeah yeah... whatevs...

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    Al E39's as of June 1999 had DSC.
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