Best cams, street/track car

[pbonsalb]

About 9 rwhp peak with the 264/256 Schricks. About 18 rwhp peak with a more aggressive cam like the Sunbelts.

I agree with you about total power under the curve for a daily driver. But for a track car that does not see under 4000 on the track, the power band from 4000 to 7200 is what matters. My car is a street car and I drive it from 1000 to 4000 rpm about 95% of the time, so the low end is important to me.

[DocWyte]

You'd be surprised how much time is spent under 4000rpm on the track....

[tsmith25]

You'd be surprised how much time is spent over 4000 on the street...

[pbonsalb]

My next car will be twin turbo with dct or pdk and I won't pay any attention to rpm.

[DocWyte]

I'm not a fan of those dual clutch gearboxes. I'd feel differently if I lived in LA and had to commute in real traffic. But I don't and for my "fun, toy" car, I want involvement and feel. You just don't get that from an automatic gearbox. That's all a dual clutch really is and they're boring. My friend has an S4 with one and within a few minutes of thumbing the paddles, I was bored.

If you're a race car driver and every tenth matters, yeah, they're worth it. If you live in an area with really bad traffic and you commute, yeah, they're worth it.

Otherwise, no thanks. I'll keep my man pedal.

- - - Updated - - -

So, decision made and parts ordered today. Car is going to the shop next Friday via AAA. I could take 2+ hours of my time and tow it there on my trailer, but screw it, I have AAA+ with 100 miles of free towing, so I'll use it!

I went with the Schrick 264/256 cams, ARP head studs, S54 OFH, Euro E36 OEM oil cooler and lines, Bimmerworld Vanos line adapter and Tstat delete for the S54 OFH.

May try to bump compression up some using a slightly thinner Cometic head gasket, will see what happens to the head once it gets checked out. If I end up having to replace valve springs due to shop/machine shop recommendation, I'll get the Schrick 276/270 cams instead.

[Solaris99]

May try to bump compression up some using a slightly thinner Cometic head gasket, will see what happens to the head once it gets checked out.

Out of curiosity, is milling the head an option for more compression?

[propcar]

I'm not a fan of those dual clutch gearboxes. I'd feel differently if I lived in LA and had to commute in real traffic. But I don't and for my "fun, toy" car, I want involvement and feel. You just don't get that from an automatic gearbox. That's all a dual clutch really is and they're boring. My friend has an S4 with one and within a few minutes of thumbing the paddles, I was bored.

If you're a race car driver and every tenth matters, yeah, they're worth it. If you live in an area with really bad traffic and you commute, yeah, they're worth it.

Otherwise, no thanks. I'll keep my man pedal.

- - - Updated - - -

So, decision made and parts ordered today. Car is going to the shop next Friday via AAA. I could take 2+ hours of my time and tow it there on my trailer, but screw it, I have AAA+ with 100 miles of free towing, so I'll use it!

I went with the Schrick 264/256 cams, ARP head studs, S54 OFH, Euro E36 OEM oil cooler and lines, Bimmerworld Vanos line adapter and Tstat delete for the S54 OFH.

May try to bump compression up some using a slightly thinner Cometic head gasket, will see what happens to the head once it gets checked out. If I end up having to replace valve springs due to shop/machine shop recommendation, I'll get the Schrick 276/270 cams instead.

Totally agree with your line of thinking in regards to fun to drive involvement. These aren't cars I'll ever drive, but I've read so many reviews of 991 GT3's being great to drive and not missing manuals etc, but they're bringing the manuals to the updated GT3 for the very same reason. Unless it's a heavily used track car, I don't see the point of taking away that extra level of involvement/enjoyment.

Your rebuild sounds great, I'm sure it will be fun. I had a VW MK2 GLi 16v back in the day that I had timing belt issue with that resulted in a head rebuild. After the rebuild the head was installed the engine had new life, it screamed like never before, I suppose the head shave may have increased compression just a bit and made it feel very fresh when I got it back. I'm sure yours will feel great and the investment will be worth it. I think in your position going with those Shricks is a smart move, that you'll be happy you did and still kept a moderate budget against the expected performance return.

[DocWyte]

Yup, Porsche realized with the demand of the manual only GT4 and 911R that they needed to have manual tranny options on all their cars.


Yes, milling the head is definitely an option and depending on what the machine shop finds they may have to mill it.

[pbonsalb]

With auto and turbo there is no drop in boost when shifting. They are faster than manuals. I agree a manual gives you something to do, though. The auto will also manage downshift faster than you can do it and under circumstances when you would not. Years ago, autos were slower than manuals and manuals were the performance option. Today the auto is the performance option.

The GT3 is slower with the manual than the pdk but they make the manual still since there are a bunch of rich old guys that still want a manual.

[propcar]

With auto and turbo there is no drop in boost when shifting. They are faster than manuals. I agree a manual gives you something to do, though. The auto will also manage downshift faster than you can do it and under circumstances when you would not. Years ago, autos were slower than manuals and manuals were the performance option. Today the auto is the performance option.

The GT3 is slower with the manual than the pdk but they make the manual still since there are a bunch of rich old guys that still want a manual.

I'd be one of those people that would get a GT3 manual. Hell there's a guy that made a GT3 RS manual conversion using a 911R gearbox. I think that's pretty cool, I'd drive it.

[Bimmerman535i]

I'd be one of those people that would get a GT3 manual. Hell there's a guy that made a GT3 RS manual conversion using a 911R gearbox. I think that's pretty cool, I'd drive it.

Yup. I may be losing a tenth or two per shift per lap with a manual car, but I'm probably losing seconds per lap because I'm a hack hobbyist. I'll take the manual until I'm fast enough to care about shifting time.

For what it's worth, I live in SF Bay area with some seriously crap traffic congestion and just bought a manual Chevy SS. Autos just bore me too much to compromise at this time.

[jvit27]

That's what I thought a properly integrated swap would cost. Like you said, unless you have a love affair with the E36, or you're doing ALL the labor yourself, that's not a good use of funds. I did have an E46 M3 for awhile, at one point it was making ~490rwhp with a supercharger on it.

I figure maybe I'll add 10-15rwhp with the street schricks, but not losing anything down low and getting a stout mid range will be nice. Yeah, I'm leaving hp on the table but I'm also leaving a nice little wad of cash in my wallet. I want power under the curve, not peaky power. Can't help the loses due to altitude, pretty much everyone is in the same situation, with the exception of the factory turbo guys, who can run more boost to overcome it. Figure I'm 18-20% down compared to sea level.

Most of my DD are turbo cars, makes a huge difference up here. The Cayenne is a riot, way faster than an SUV has a right to be!

Forgot your E46 was boosted! Must have been fun with that kind of power.
But yeah, to do a swap properly adds up. That's why guys who have actually done it are a little more objective... Bimmerman535i and his buddy gpeterson are the only ones i've seen go the extra mile to integrate an S54 like the factory (or at least the only ones who cared to share) and they will tell it like it is. I'd love to build one but the reality is I like the E46 just as much for different reasons, so as I get older my free time is limited and i'd rather drive my car than work on it.

Since you're losing 18-20% up there, will you only realize ~80% of the gains?

It's silly how fast cars are getting nowadays with turbos. I thought my X5 4.8iS was overkill for an SUV... but your Cayenne sounds badass!

I've had fun with the E36 being turbo, but I want something newer with an auto/dct to daily and I think that compliments the torque nicely. Fun to flick gears and just keep feeling thrust without any boost drop off. Just like the NA throttle response pairs so well with a manual..

You'd be surprised how much time is spent over 4000 on the street...

well played!

I'm not a fan of those dual clutch gearboxes. I'd feel differently if I lived in LA and had to commute in real traffic. But I don't and for my "fun, toy" car, I want involvement and feel. You just don't get that from an automatic gearbox. That's all a dual clutch really is and they're boring. My friend has an S4 with one and within a few minutes of thumbing the paddles, I was bored.

If you're a race car driver and every tenth matters, yeah, they're worth it. If you live in an area with really bad traffic and you commute, yeah, they're worth it.

Otherwise, no thanks. I'll keep my man pedal.

- - - Updated - - -

So, decision made and parts ordered today. Car is going to the shop next Friday via AAA. I could take 2+ hours of my time and tow it there on my trailer, but screw it, I have AAA+ with 100 miles of free towing, so I'll use it!

I went with the Schrick 264/256 cams, ARP head studs, S54 OFH, Euro E36 OEM oil cooler and lines, Bimmerworld Vanos line adapter and Tstat delete for the S54 OFH.

May try to bump compression up some using a slightly thinner Cometic head gasket, will see what happens to the head once it gets checked out. If I end up having to replace valve springs due to shop/machine shop recommendation, I'll get the Schrick 276/270 cams instead.

Just depends on the application. The nice part about two pedals is it's simply easier to cover ground. The stress of dailying a manual -especially in LA- takes the fun out of driving. By the time the weekend comes the last thing you want to do is row gears. Honestly the key is having both at your disposal. That's just the answer to the debate.

I'd be one of those people that would get a GT3 manual. Hell there's a guy that made a GT3 RS manual conversion using a 911R gearbox. I think that's pretty cool, I'd drive it.

It's a tossup man. I've got lots of seat time in the GT4/Spyder as well as GT3RS. First world problems! I will say this though, the Porsche manuals really ruin most other cars' gearboxes. I find myself not wanting to drive stick unless it's a GT car, but PDK is SO damn good i'd be really hard-pressed which box to tick. Every time I drive the RS I wonder why would you want anything else.. then I drive the GT4/Spyder and think this is as good as it gets.

For me, it comes down to power. >450hp, dual clutch. <450hp, manual.

[DocWyte]

Well, the shop is recommending valve springs.

So I can either stick with the street schricks are get oem valve springs for $330, or spend another $700 (the delta) for super tech springs and schrick 276/270's.

Decisions.....

[pbonsalb]

PM Matutino. He has just run both back to back.

[DocWyte]

His car is turbo'd tho. I talked to him yesterday, in his application the 276's moved his power band to the right and increased lag.

Or I can get the vac "sport" springs for $385 and the 276 cams.

Apparently those springs are oem BMW, just for another application and are 10% stiffer than stock. Same size spring as stock

[GG///M3]

His car is turbo'd tho. I talked to him yesterday, in his application the 276's moved his power band to the right and increased lag.

Or I can get the vac "sport" springs for $385 and the 276 cams.

Apparently those springs are oem BMW, just for another application and are 10% stiffer than stock. Same size spring as stock

You may want to find out if using a thinner head gasket may increase the chance of valve contact with the pistons. Just a thought.

[Matutino]

If you run 276 with stock pistons will need to limit Vanos and will lose torque under 4k turbo or not.
The 276 made the car that much faster above 4500rpm but that much laggier under 4500rpm, as you said Im not N/A.
For my application, Im going to install next week big intake cam and stock exhaust cam and test it out, but again, this test wont help you at all.
Why is the shop recommending upgraded springs using 256/264? That does not make much sense.

[Solaris99]

Or I can get the vac "sport" springs for $385 and the 276 cams.

Apparently those springs are oem BMW, just for another application and are 10% stiffer than stock. Same size spring as stock

Be sure that that's actually a kit and not just the springs alone. I got the impression they are only springs without retainers and seats, like the Supertech kit.

Why is the shop recommending upgraded springs using 256/264? That does not make much sense.

They probably recommended that he replace the springs. Not necessarily upgrade them.

[DocWyte]

Yup, replace the springs, not upgrade them.

Those VAC springs are oem, so you reuse the oem retainers and seats.

[Solaris99]

Those VAC springs are oem, so you reuse the oem retainers and seats.

Oh, right. The VAC page says they're for "those who will not be using radical camshafts". Does VAC consider the 276/270 radical cams? When they say radical, I assume they're talking about lift.

[Matutino]

Yup, replace the springs, not upgrade them.

Those VAC springs are oem, so you reuse the oem retainers and seats.

I don't see a a reason to replace them unless they test them out and are weak, which I highly doubt that will happen.
If you are going to replace them, then upgrade them, if not then keep your stock ones and save the $.

[GG///M3]

I don't see a a reason to replace them unless they test them out and are weak, which I highly doubt that will happen.
If you are going to replace them, then upgrade them, if not then keep your stock ones and save the $.

The reason I liked the Epic motorsports sport cams designed for stock valve train, and 7,400 rpms.


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[digger]

Every dyno graph I've seen with these headers, that I can recall, has had a 3" exhaust system (which most likely would merge right after the headers). Wonder if that might, at least in part, be why those cars see such a torque dip below 4k. I'm sure the shorty vs euro SS is still a factor, but I would be curious to see to what extent that 3" exhaust exacerbates it.

while 2.5" would be enough for most once you've merged to a single pipe after a Y-pipe i dont think 3" is an inherent problem, it will be something else IMO most likely too short of a length of secondaries or tuning/cam phasing issue

[DocWyte]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure why they're recommeding I replace the springs without testing them first, other than a "while you're in there" type of thing. I was surprised when he told me to get new OEM springs.

VAC says those heavier OEM springs are ok with the 276 cams but do some cya and say for race use you shouldn't use them.

If limiting the vanos kills the lower end, I'm not thrilled about that at all. At that point maybe I'm just better off sticking with my original plan and keeping the Schrick 264/256's and either having the machine shop test my current OEM springs or buying new OEM or the VAC OEM+ springs and calling it a day.

Otherwise this mission creep is going to get really expensive. I still need to rebuild the vanos while I'm in there too. VAC has rebuilt vanos units for $250. Seems like it might be the way to go, easy and saves $$ for labor...

[GG///M3]

Yeah, I'm not quite sure why they're recommeding I replace the springs without testing them first, other than a "while you're in there" type of thing. I was surprised when he told me to get new OEM springs.

VAC says those heavier OEM springs are ok with the 276 cams but do some cya and say for race use you shouldn't use them.

If limiting the vanos kills the lower end, I'm not thrilled about that at all. At that point maybe I'm just better off sticking with my original plan and keeping the Schrick 264/256's and either having the machine shop test my current OEM springs or buying new OEM or the VAC OEM+ springs and calling it a day.

Otherwise this mission creep is going to get really expensive. I still need to rebuild the vanos while I'm in there too. VAC has rebuilt vanos units for $250. Seems like it might be the way to go, easy and saves $$ for labor...

It's not unheard of for some to make 26x whp with the standard schricks with a decent exhaust.




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