Best cams, street/track car

[propcar]

E46 M3 makes alot of sense, although I'm scared of their subframe issues.

[Bimmerman535i]

E46 M3 makes alot of sense, although I'm scared of their subframe issues.

Yup. They're fixable though. Same with the E9x rod bearings. I'm not entirely sure how prevalent either failure is in the real world, given the internet's ability to blow things out of proportion.

[propcar]

Yup. They're fixable though. Same with the E9x rod bearings. I'm not entirely sure how prevalent either failure is in the real world, given the internet's ability to blow things out of proportion.

If E36 M3 prices keep climbing, I may just switch to one... but that mean starting all over unless it's a really nice example. Or just get an S2000

[Matutino]

If E36 M3 prices keep climbing, I may just switch to one... but that mean starting all over unless it's a really nice example. Or just get an S2000

Are e36 prices climbing?

[propcar]

Are e36 prices climbing?

they're not falling, clean cars are demanding premium prices. Mine's got high miles so probably won't fetch much more over $10k... but well maintained examples are getting rarer.

[GG///M3]

If E36 M3 prices keep climbing, I may just switch to one... but that mean starting all over unless it's a really nice example. Or just get an S2000

I've come close a few times myself to buying an s2k, but it's horrid around town unless you want to drive around at 6k rpms.


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[jakermac]

As for the cam + S52 question, don't forget to take a look at Metric Mechanic. Fsmtnbiker ran a set of those a few years ago on an otherwise stock S52 and made pretty good power, with no vanos issues. I don't remember if he had to do valvesprings or not, but since the springs come out for the headgasket machine work, at least you're not out extra labor just parts. Check the dyno thread to see his results.

Those exact cams (I bought them from Chris - Fsmtnbiker) are in my motor. It's 3.0, but higher compression with a bunch of other bits and pieces here and there:

[GG///M3]

Those exact cams (I bought them from Chris - Fsmtnbiker) are in my motor. It's 3.0, but higher compression with a bunch of other bits and pieces here and there:

Very fancy. What other bits did you use(exhaust)?


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[jakermac]

Very fancy. What other bits did you use(exhaust)?

Raceland Shorty replicas
Custom built 2-1 merge
Custom 3" exhaust with:
- 3" cat
- 3" Vibrant 18" long resonator
- 3" Coast Fab (same as Burns Stainless) race muffler
- 3" Magnaflow oval muffler

I now have these that Zack from 22rpd.com (Vollosso) built for me but the car/motor are down for a while due to "issues" that I created.

IMG_2484 by Jacques Dorey, on Flickr

[DocWyte]

What are the specs of those Metric Mechanic cams that you have? Did you have to upgrade the valve springs and limit the Vanos?

[bimma360]

Those exact cams (I bought them from Chris - Fsmtnbiker) are in my motor. It's 3.0, but higher compression with a bunch of other bits and pieces here and there:

The MM rally cams are 272/258 right? How is the idle? Any audible cam lope? Great numbers btw, you have stock torque available at ~2850rpm. If i recall fsmtnbiker had a big dip in the the torque in that area. Curious as to what was the cause.

[pbonsalb]

I noticed that about the torque -- pretty good for more radical cams. It's a decent looking dyno.

[Bimmerman535i]

The MM rally cams are 272/258 right? How is the idle? Any audible cam lope? Great numbers btw, you have stock torque available at ~2850rpm. If i recall fsmtnbiker had a big dip in the the torque in that area. Curious as to what was the cause.

Fsmtnbiker's dyno dip between 3-4000rpm actually occurs on just about every S52 with an M50 manifold and the Raceland/Euro SuperSprint style header, even with stock cams. Tuning limits it to some amount but that dip is always present -- cams just greatly increase the magnitude of the dip. Look at stock cam S52 dynos with the M50+Raceland combo.

The dip does not occur with the Turner shorty headers, the US Supersprint, or the Kromer headers, so the thinking is the dip has a lot to do with the match between M50 manifold and the Euro SS-style header. The tradeoff is you don't get as much high rpm power with the Turner and US SS...the KKs combine the benefits of both the Turners and the Euro SS.

[DocWyte]

Hmm, those Metric cams are looking pretty good then. Looks like they're regrinds, wonder about the valve springs and limiting the vanos tho.

[bimma360]

Fsmtnbiker's dyno dip between 3-4000rpm actually occurs on just about every S52 with an M50 manifold and the Raceland/Euro SuperSprint style header, even with stock cams. Tuning limits it to some amount but that dip is always present -- cams just greatly increase the magnitude of the dip. Look at stock cam S52 dynos with the M50+Raceland combo.

The dip does not occur with the Turner shorty headers, the US Supersprint, or the Kromer headers, so the thinking is the dip has a lot to do with the match between M50 manifold and the Euro SS-style header. The tradeoff is you don't get as much high rpm power with the Turner and US SS...the KKs combine the benefits of both the Turners and the Euro SS.

Haha... and of course I have (Raceland Euro SS, SS euro mid w/ highflown cats, and SS euro performance exhaust, +M50 manifold swap). Well I suppose after head work, and 11.3:1 CR I'll see what the torque curve looks like and swap the headers out if needed (not holding my breath).

[Bimmerman535i]

Ha, of course. I'd say get a custom dyno tune first then go from there if the torque dip bothers you.

[jakermac]

Yes, they're the 272/258 cams. They are infact "weld/regrinds". They weld additional metal onto the lobes so they can produce more lift/duration than a normal regrind could produce. I am running them with Supertech springs and I have not limited my Vanos because I have forged pistons with large enough cutouts to suit pretty much any lift that would be usable in an M50 based I6. I am pretty sure that Chris ran his with stock springs and no limit on the Vanos but my memory could be failing me.

Concerning the dip you guys are discussing, I played around a bunch with Vanos activation as the car felt like it had a hell of a kick in the pants at 5k. I have vanos switching at about 4k now and may take it a bit lower in future. It still feels like it's hitting pretty hard at 4k - still about a 20-25ft/lb jump between 4,000 and 4,250.

I cannot comment on what lope is like because I have my idle bumped up to 900rpm to reduce the Getrag rattle and help with the grossly reduced reciprocating mass of my engine and drivetrain - 12lbs off the S52 crank, light rods, light pistons, 8.5lb UUC flywheel, etc...

And for the record, these are the Racelands that I've been using so far:

[tsmith25]

Haha... and of course I have (Raceland Euro SS, SS euro mid w/ highflown cats, and SS euro performance exhaust, +M50 manifold swap). Well I suppose after head work, and 11.3:1 CR I'll see what the torque curve looks like and swap the headers out if needed (not holding my breath).

This is a little off the cam topic, but I have a set of the racelands that mate to the euro midpipe sitting in my office till I put them on this weekend. I decided to put their primary diameter into a peak torque rpm calculator (on the internet) earlier today, and it said for their approximately 1.5" ID and the 195 ci S52 that the peak rpm would be about 6300. I didn't take it as far as calculating the scavenging rpm peak, but they don't seem overly long, so I would guess that that is higher rpm oriented also. we will see how they will feel in mine with the stock manifold, and stock midpipe(from the cats back).

[MRoadsterOC]

I have aan almost NEW (50 miles on it)set of 256/264, that I might be selling soon, I'm installing 276 and will decide which one I'll be keeping in the next few days

PM sent, i have been looking for these for a while, no vendor has them in stock, PayPal ready!

[Matutino]

PM sent, i have been looking for these for a while, no vendor has them in stock, PayPal ready!

Sorry but are not available any longer.

[digger]

This is a little off the cam topic, but I have a set of the racelands that mate to the euro midpipe sitting in my office till I put them on this weekend. I decided to put their primary diameter into a peak torque rpm calculator (on the internet) earlier today, and it said for their approximately 1.5" ID and the 195 ci S52 that the peak rpm would be about 6300. I didn't take it as far as calculating the scavenging rpm peak, but they don't seem overly long, so I would guess that that is higher rpm oriented also. we will see how they will feel in mine with the stock manifold, and stock midpipe(from the cats back).

dont worry about those silly calculators mate, they are very inaccurate. 1.5" upto 300 flywheel is plenty, more than this then a stepped header with 1.5 -->1.625" is the go. something with 24-26" primary pipe length is a good ballpark number. then there is the secondary length (end of primary to the X or Y-pipe), keep it nice and long if its a street motor this is where you lose right at the bottom end below 4000rpm if you make it too short. Short works ok if you want 4000 and up and not much else

[jvit27]

And how much did your Euro M3 motor swap cost Jon? Super cool swap, I certainly wish I could do that or an S54 swap, but the reality of the costs of doing those swaps is sobering.

Yeah, I'll only get a small gain out of the cams, even smaller if I don't do the 276/270's. However, if the labor to install them is basically nothing, I might as well throw the street schricks in. Minimal cost involved and I will see some gains. The more wild cams definitely start ringing the cash register much more and at that point its not worth it to me.

I spent a lot ($15k) and definitely do not recommend it. Unless you're diehard E36, that money can go towards upgrading to another car (IIRC you had an E46 M3 at one point?), C6, etc.

The street Schricks are essentially a "ZHP" cam. Gains are 8-10hp and no loss of tq down low. They're about $1200 so it's still a nice chunk of change for a marginal improvement but much more palatable since your labor cost is zeroed out. They are what I ran and the only cam I considered. Having driven other S52's with bigger cams like Sunbelts -which were pretty flat below 4k- the sacrifice on the street was annoying. Everyone forgets that narrowing the power band on a motor you can't really raise the redline on is kind of silly if you ever drive it on the street. The problem I see is that you're losing way more HP than they gain just by being up in Colorado so you may not see the ROI? Drivability wise they suit the motor well though.

Haha you have to see the irony here. You are basically saying, its not worth spending $3K on an S52 so spend 2 - 3X that turbo'ing it. Or 2 - 3X that on a swap.

Your definition of "worth" is horsepower. Thats not really the case for everyone man. Not everyone is after the same thing you are. Some people just want to bump up the power a bit, improve on some of the motor's natural shortcomings, and to a POINT the money part is irrelevant. I am budgeting about $5-6K for a S52 rebuild on a car that sees about 15-20k miles per year. At best, I am looking at 285-300bhp. The alternative is an S54 swap that at best would be 50% higher in cost. If HP and HP potential in a NA format was my priority than the S54 is a no brainer. But its not. And its not for a lot of other NA guys, for various reasons. Having had turbo'd and high hp cars, I have found that I much prefer a chassis car than a power car. When I want a high hp car again, I'll go out and buy one that came that way from the factory. But I grasp that there are different strokes for different folks, so you won't catch me telling you that its a waste building an S54b34 when you can swap an S65.

No. I'm saying spend $3000 for 20hp isn't worth it. I didn't suggest he do a swap. OP lives in altitude, has owned an F/I E36 M3 and some other stout turbo cars before.

I'm not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth because "worth" is not defined by horsepower to me either; otherwise I wouldn't have done an S50b32 swap. If anything it's torque. An N/A S52 is going to make 230's in that dept. no matter what you do to it. Fun engine on it's own but IMO when you try to turn it into a top end screamer it loses it's charm. The head design doesn't support the flow to make it as satisfying to rev and IF you modify it to do so, the bottom end will start to shake itself apart after 7100rpm. Hence I say throw an M50 manifold+tune and just enjoy the engine for what it is. Once you go down the rabbit hole of building it, you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel with a wannabe S50/S54 and will ultimately fail to come close while still spending enough money to have swapped one or bought a car that came with one.

And I considered an S65 swap but it hasn't been ironed out yet. Not that torquey for a V8 and I don't want to be a guinea pig and/or keep my car off the road for a year. BTDT. Easier to drop one in an E82 or build an E92 but for now I still prefer the lines of the E46 and the S54b34 will make about the same numbers but with factory integration. I like the heritage of the inline 6 and the fact you can put a carbon airbox that is essentially an OEM part is super cool to me. So surprise! that was not a horsepower decision.#irony

[bimma360]

No. I'm saying spend $3000 for 20hp isn't worth it. I didn't suggest he do a swap. OP lives in altitude, has owned an F/I E36 M3 and some other stout turbo cars before.

I'm not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth because "worth" is not defined by horsepower to me either; otherwise I wouldn't have done an S50b32 swap. If anything it's torque. An N/A S52 is going to make 230's in that dept. no matter what you do to it. Fun engine on it's own but IMO when you try to turn it into a top end screamer it loses it's charm. The head design doesn't support the flow to make it as satisfying to rev and IF you modify it to do so, the bottom end will start to shake itself apart after 7100rpm. Hence I say throw an M50 manifold+tune and just enjoy the engine for what it is. Once you go down the rabbit hole of building it, you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel with a wannabe S50/S54 and will ultimately fail to come close while still spending enough money to have swapped one or bought a car that came with one.

And I considered an S65 swap but it hasn't been ironed out yet. Not that torquey for a V8 and I don't want to be a guinea pig and/or keep my car off the road for a year. BTDT. Easier to drop one in an E82 or build an E92 but for now I still prefer the lines of the E46 and the S54b34 will make about the same numbers but with factory integration. I like the heritage of the inline 6 and the fact you can put a carbon airbox that is essentially an OEM part is super cool to me. So surprise! that was not a horsepower decision.#irony

Sorry man thats just the way I took it. Btw, for the sake of the convo, I don't think anyone at least in this thread has been talking about turning it into a top end screamer. I think at leas tin our convo, I have been talking about quite the opposite. I just come from a different perspective I think, where dropping a lot of money to build a 3.0L M20, for example, that more or less makes the same power as a S52, where the swap would have actually been cheaper, is totally normal. I'll just leave it at that.

I do have to ask though, if its not about the power why build a 3.4L S54? With my experience, the S54 really has no significant shortcomings for being a high reving I6.

[bimma360]

dont worry about those silly calculators mate, they are very inaccurate. 1.5" upto 300 flywheel is plenty, more than this then a stepped header with 1.5 -->1.625" is the go. something with 24-26" primary pipe length is a good ballpark number. then there is the secondary length (end of primary to the X or Y-pipe), keep it nice and long if its a street motor this is where you lose right at the bottom end below 4000rpm if you make it too short. Short works ok if you want 4000 and up and not much else

Every dyno graph I've seen with these headers, that I can recall, has had a 3" exhaust system (which most likely would merge right after the headers). Wonder if that might, at least in part, be why those cars see such a torque dip below 4k. I'm sure the shorty vs euro SS is still a factor, but I would be curious to see to what extent that 3" exhaust exacerbates it.

[DocWyte]

[QUOTE=jvit27;29776697]I spent a lot ($15k) and definitely do not recommend it. Unless you're diehard E36, that money can go towards upgrading to another car (IIRC you had an E46 M3 at one point?), C6, etc.

The street Schricks are essentially a "ZHP" cam. Gains are 8-10hp and no loss of tq down low. They're about $1200 so it's still a nice chunk of change for a marginal improvement but much more palatable since your labor cost is zeroed out. They are what I ran and the only cam I considered. Having driven other S52's with bigger cams like Sunbelts -which were pretty flat below 4k- the sacrifice on the street was annoying. Everyone forgets that narrowing the power band on a motor you can't really raise the redline on is kind of silly if you ever drive it on the street. The problem I see is that you're losing way more HP than they gain just by being up in Colorado so you may not see the ROI? Drivability wise they suit the motor well though.[QUOTE=jvit27;29776697]

That's what I thought a properly integrated swap would cost. Like you said, unless you have a love affair with the E36, or you're doing ALL the labor yourself, that's not a good use of funds. I did have an E46 M3 for awhile, at one point it was making ~490rwhp with a supercharger on it.

I figure maybe I'll add 10-15rwhp with the street schricks, but not losing anything down low and getting a stout mid range will be nice. Yeah, I'm leaving hp on the table but I'm also leaving a nice little wad of cash in my wallet. I want power under the curve, not peaky power. Can't help the loses due to altitude, pretty much everyone is in the same situation, with the exception of the factory turbo guys, who can run more boost to overcome it. Figure I'm 18-20% down compared to sea level.

Most of my DD are turbo cars, makes a huge difference up here. The Cayenne is a riot, way faster than an SUV has a right to be!