E46 M3 makes alot of sense, although I'm scared of their subframe issues.
TRM Coilovers 670F/895R | BBS LM | Corsa RSC36
"Fear disturbs your concentration" -Sabine Schmit
1995 BMW M3/2/5-- S54 + Mk60 DSC, California Smog Legal (Build Thread)
1998 BMW M3/4/5 Alpine/Modena, Z3 Rack, otherwise stock-- DD without burbles
2017 Chevy SS, Orange Blast Metallic, 6MT -- DD with burbles
Old set up: 520RWHP & 500RWTQ @ 20PSI 1/4 mile as of 7/26/15 12.5 @ 125MPH - 19PSI
New set up: Steedspeed Twinscroll, Wiseco Pistons 8.8:1 CR, K1 Rods, Blueprinted and Balanced, ARP Main Studs, o-ring block, GTR 12mm head studs, GT35R with 86mm HTA billet compressor wheel (GT3586RHTA) TwinScrol 1.06 exhaust housing, Nick G custom tuning, 6 Speed Transmission, UUC Twin Disc Clutch, UUC EVO III, UUC DSSR 109mm, EVO 6 Speed Driveshaft, HFS-6 W/M injection, Zeitronix data logger, 3" SS full exhaust, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Race coilovers.
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
― George Orwell
Raceland Shorty replicas
Custom built 2-1 merge
Custom 3" exhaust with:
- 3" cat
- 3" Vibrant 18" long resonator
- 3" Coast Fab (same as Burns Stainless) race muffler
- 3" Magnaflow oval muffler
I now have these that Zack from 22rpd.com (Vollosso) built for me but the car/motor are down for a while due to "issues" that I created.
IMG_2484 by Jacques Dorey, on Flickr
What are the specs of those Metric Mechanic cams that you have? Did you have to upgrade the valve springs and limit the Vanos?
'03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
'18 Toyota Land Cruiser Daily driver/Ski Machine/Off Roader
'15 Cayenne Diesel Wife's DD
'17 KTM 690 "Adv" 2 wheeled Adventurer
I noticed that about the torque -- pretty good for more radical cams. It's a decent looking dyno.
Fsmtnbiker's dyno dip between 3-4000rpm actually occurs on just about every S52 with an M50 manifold and the Raceland/Euro SuperSprint style header, even with stock cams. Tuning limits it to some amount but that dip is always present -- cams just greatly increase the magnitude of the dip. Look at stock cam S52 dynos with the M50+Raceland combo.
The dip does not occur with the Turner shorty headers, the US Supersprint, or the Kromer headers, so the thinking is the dip has a lot to do with the match between M50 manifold and the Euro SS-style header. The tradeoff is you don't get as much high rpm power with the Turner and US SS...the KKs combine the benefits of both the Turners and the Euro SS.
Last edited by Bimmerman535i; 07-20-2017 at 02:56 PM.
"Fear disturbs your concentration" -Sabine Schmit
1995 BMW M3/2/5-- S54 + Mk60 DSC, California Smog Legal (Build Thread)
1998 BMW M3/4/5 Alpine/Modena, Z3 Rack, otherwise stock-- DD without burbles
2017 Chevy SS, Orange Blast Metallic, 6MT -- DD with burbles
Hmm, those Metric cams are looking pretty good then. Looks like they're regrinds, wonder about the valve springs and limiting the vanos tho.
'03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
'18 Toyota Land Cruiser Daily driver/Ski Machine/Off Roader
'15 Cayenne Diesel Wife's DD
'17 KTM 690 "Adv" 2 wheeled Adventurer
Haha... and of course I have (Raceland Euro SS, SS euro mid w/ highflown cats, and SS euro performance exhaust, +M50 manifold swap). Well I suppose after head work, and 11.3:1 CR I'll see what the torque curve looks like and swap the headers out if needed (not holding my breath).
Ha, of course. I'd say get a custom dyno tune first then go from there if the torque dip bothers you.
"Fear disturbs your concentration" -Sabine Schmit
1995 BMW M3/2/5-- S54 + Mk60 DSC, California Smog Legal (Build Thread)
1998 BMW M3/4/5 Alpine/Modena, Z3 Rack, otherwise stock-- DD without burbles
2017 Chevy SS, Orange Blast Metallic, 6MT -- DD with burbles
Yes, they're the 272/258 cams. They are infact "weld/regrinds". They weld additional metal onto the lobes so they can produce more lift/duration than a normal regrind could produce. I am running them with Supertech springs and I have not limited my Vanos because I have forged pistons with large enough cutouts to suit pretty much any lift that would be usable in an M50 based I6. I am pretty sure that Chris ran his with stock springs and no limit on the Vanos but my memory could be failing me.
Concerning the dip you guys are discussing, I played around a bunch with Vanos activation as the car felt like it had a hell of a kick in the pants at 5k. I have vanos switching at about 4k now and may take it a bit lower in future. It still feels like it's hitting pretty hard at 4k - still about a 20-25ft/lb jump between 4,000 and 4,250.
I cannot comment on what lope is like because I have my idle bumped up to 900rpm to reduce the Getrag rattle and help with the grossly reduced reciprocating mass of my engine and drivetrain - 12lbs off the S52 crank, light rods, light pistons, 8.5lb UUC flywheel, etc...
And for the record, these are the Racelands that I've been using so far:
Last edited by jakermac; 07-20-2017 at 03:14 PM.
This is a little off the cam topic, but I have a set of the racelands that mate to the euro midpipe sitting in my office till I put them on this weekend. I decided to put their primary diameter into a peak torque rpm calculator (on the internet) earlier today, and it said for their approximately 1.5" ID and the 195 ci S52 that the peak rpm would be about 6300. I didn't take it as far as calculating the scavenging rpm peak, but they don't seem overly long, so I would guess that that is higher rpm oriented also. we will see how they will feel in mine with the stock manifold, and stock midpipe(from the cats back).
95 cosmoschwartz M3/2/5 : 2012-1/1/2014 (worn rtab's and bald rear tires in the rain)
98 cosmoschwartz M3/4/5 : 2016-3/10/2017 (understeering SUV)
99 Estoril M3/2/5: 6/16/2017-current
Old set up: 520RWHP & 500RWTQ @ 20PSI 1/4 mile as of 7/26/15 12.5 @ 125MPH - 19PSI
New set up: Steedspeed Twinscroll, Wiseco Pistons 8.8:1 CR, K1 Rods, Blueprinted and Balanced, ARP Main Studs, o-ring block, GTR 12mm head studs, GT35R with 86mm HTA billet compressor wheel (GT3586RHTA) TwinScrol 1.06 exhaust housing, Nick G custom tuning, 6 Speed Transmission, UUC Twin Disc Clutch, UUC EVO III, UUC DSSR 109mm, EVO 6 Speed Driveshaft, HFS-6 W/M injection, Zeitronix data logger, 3" SS full exhaust, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Race coilovers.
dont worry about those silly calculators mate, they are very inaccurate. 1.5" upto 300 flywheel is plenty, more than this then a stepped header with 1.5 -->1.625" is the go. something with 24-26" primary pipe length is a good ballpark number. then there is the secondary length (end of primary to the X or Y-pipe), keep it nice and long if its a street motor this is where you lose right at the bottom end below 4000rpm if you make it too short. Short works ok if you want 4000 and up and not much else
Last edited by digger; 07-21-2017 at 07:07 AM.
I spent a lot ($15k) and definitely do not recommend it. Unless you're diehard E36, that money can go towards upgrading to another car (IIRC you had an E46 M3 at one point?), C6, etc.
The street Schricks are essentially a "ZHP" cam. Gains are 8-10hp and no loss of tq down low. They're about $1200 so it's still a nice chunk of change for a marginal improvement but much more palatable since your labor cost is zeroed out. They are what I ran and the only cam I considered. Having driven other S52's with bigger cams like Sunbelts -which were pretty flat below 4k- the sacrifice on the street was annoying. Everyone forgets that narrowing the power band on a motor you can't really raise the redline on is kind of silly if you ever drive it on the street. The problem I see is that you're losing way more HP than they gain just by being up in Colorado so you may not see the ROI? Drivability wise they suit the motor well though.
No. I'm saying spend $3000 for 20hp isn't worth it. I didn't suggest he do a swap. OP lives in altitude, has owned an F/I E36 M3 and some other stout turbo cars before.
I'm not sure why you're trying to put words in my mouth because "worth" is not defined by horsepower to me either; otherwise I wouldn't have done an S50b32 swap. If anything it's torque. An N/A S52 is going to make 230's in that dept. no matter what you do to it. Fun engine on it's own but IMO when you try to turn it into a top end screamer it loses it's charm. The head design doesn't support the flow to make it as satisfying to rev and IF you modify it to do so, the bottom end will start to shake itself apart after 7100rpm. Hence I say throw an M50 manifold+tune and just enjoy the engine for what it is. Once you go down the rabbit hole of building it, you're essentially trying to reinvent the wheel with a wannabe S50/S54 and will ultimately fail to come close while still spending enough money to have swapped one or bought a car that came with one.
And I considered an S65 swap but it hasn't been ironed out yet. Not that torquey for a V8 and I don't want to be a guinea pig and/or keep my car off the road for a year. BTDT. Easier to drop one in an E82 or build an E92 but for now I still prefer the lines of the E46 and the S54b34 will make about the same numbers but with factory integration. I like the heritage of the inline 6 and the fact you can put a carbon airbox that is essentially an OEM part is super cool to me. So surprise! that was not a horsepower decision.#irony
Last edited by jvit27; 07-21-2017 at 08:42 AM.
'99 Estoril Blue + Dove Grey ///M3 coupe
'04 Jet Black + Cinnamon ///M3 coupe
Sorry man thats just the way I took it. Btw, for the sake of the convo, I don't think anyone at least in this thread has been talking about turning it into a top end screamer. I think at leas tin our convo, I have been talking about quite the opposite. I just come from a different perspective I think, where dropping a lot of money to build a 3.0L M20, for example, that more or less makes the same power as a S52, where the swap would have actually been cheaper, is totally normal. I'll just leave it at that.
I do have to ask though, if its not about the power why build a 3.4L S54? With my experience, the S54 really has no significant shortcomings for being a high reving I6.
Last edited by bimma360; 07-21-2017 at 10:20 AM.
Every dyno graph I've seen with these headers, that I can recall, has had a 3" exhaust system (which most likely would merge right after the headers). Wonder if that might, at least in part, be why those cars see such a torque dip below 4k. I'm sure the shorty vs euro SS is still a factor, but I would be curious to see to what extent that 3" exhaust exacerbates it.
[QUOTE=jvit27;29776697]I spent a lot ($15k) and definitely do not recommend it. Unless you're diehard E36, that money can go towards upgrading to another car (IIRC you had an E46 M3 at one point?), C6, etc.
The street Schricks are essentially a "ZHP" cam. Gains are 8-10hp and no loss of tq down low. They're about $1200 so it's still a nice chunk of change for a marginal improvement but much more palatable since your labor cost is zeroed out. They are what I ran and the only cam I considered. Having driven other S52's with bigger cams like Sunbelts -which were pretty flat below 4k- the sacrifice on the street was annoying. Everyone forgets that narrowing the power band on a motor you can't really raise the redline on is kind of silly if you ever drive it on the street. The problem I see is that you're losing way more HP than they gain just by being up in Colorado so you may not see the ROI? Drivability wise they suit the motor well though.[QUOTE=jvit27;29776697]
That's what I thought a properly integrated swap would cost. Like you said, unless you have a love affair with the E36, or you're doing ALL the labor yourself, that's not a good use of funds. I did have an E46 M3 for awhile, at one point it was making ~490rwhp with a supercharger on it.
I figure maybe I'll add 10-15rwhp with the street schricks, but not losing anything down low and getting a stout mid range will be nice. Yeah, I'm leaving hp on the table but I'm also leaving a nice little wad of cash in my wallet. I want power under the curve, not peaky power. Can't help the loses due to altitude, pretty much everyone is in the same situation, with the exception of the factory turbo guys, who can run more boost to overcome it. Figure I'm 18-20% down compared to sea level.
Most of my DD are turbo cars, makes a huge difference up here. The Cayenne is a riot, way faster than an SUV has a right to be!
Last edited by DocWyte; 07-21-2017 at 10:14 AM.
'03 911 Turbo 6MT fun car
'18 Toyota Land Cruiser Daily driver/Ski Machine/Off Roader
'15 Cayenne Diesel Wife's DD
'17 KTM 690 "Adv" 2 wheeled Adventurer
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