New thrust arm bushings, shaking is now worse!

[bostonaudi]

For the 27th time: BMW spec'd oil filled bushings in a number of places on these cars and the oil leaks out with age. Not sure you're processing this. So for the applications discussed the HD improvement is that their versions are not oil filled. So it's not at all about durometer, it's because they are solid rubber inside and not oil filled that they work and last much better. This is also the difference between Meyle normal (Oe style) and HD.

.

Your obnoxious tone duly noted again. Off meds today?

Since the forums are always correct, here you go, turned up immediately. Yes, you can find lots of articles either way. However post #14 probably better articulates what I've been saying. And you seem unable to grasp this point - if the bushing is no longer fluid filled, so what. If its still crappy chinese rubber made from recycled Soviet condoms it will still fail early. You haven't proved the fluid design was the root cause of the failure. If the original OEM fluid filled bushings had a good bump stop and better rubber like new Lemforders do, doesn't it stand a chance they would have lasted longer? Meyle more likely dropped the fluid as its more expensive to produce.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...failure-2.html

[philly98540]

You guys watch your attacks here or TO. Got it.
No need to bust stones on each other just for sport. Fun is fun, but keep it civil

[jp5Touring]

Your obnoxious tone duly noted again. Off meds today?

Since the forums are always correct, here you go, turned up immediately. Yes, you can find lots of articles either way. However post #14 probably better articulates what I've been saying. And you seem unable to grasp this point - if the bushing is no longer fluid filled, so what. If its still crappy chinese rubber made from recycled Soviet condoms it will still fail early. You haven't proved the fluid design was the root cause of the failure. If the original OEM fluid filled bushings had a good bump stop and better rubber like new Lemforders do, doesn't it stand a chance they would have lasted longer? Meyle more likely dropped the fluid as its more expensive to produce.

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...failure-2.html

The picture in this thread is NOT a Meyle HD bushing, just FYI. Also do you know some Lemforder parts are also made in CHINA ?
Are you aware that the Lemforder thrust arm failure is the most common failure on the E39 suspension ?

[bostonaudi]

The picture in this thread is NOT a Meyle HD bushing, just FYI. Also do you know some Lemforder parts are also made in CHINA ?
Are you aware that the Lemforder thrust arm failure is the most common failure on the E39 suspension ?

Yes, I've gotten OEM parts made in China. It's the world we live in. I admittedly fall into China bashing, they have it coming to some degree as it's a culture of copying and making it cheaper. Good things can be made there, like the iPhone I'm using now.

Totally agree with part of your statement - that the thrust bushing is a high failure point. Where is your data coming from that points out Lemforder as having the highest rate of failure vs other brands? Correct me if wrong but that seems to be the implication. Also are we talking about the original parts BMW installed or Lemforder replacements?

Regarding the insults, this was carried over from another thread and reignited by geargrinder, even after I agreed to cool it. I've offered different opinions, we should be able to discuss or debate without racing to the bottom.

What makes you say the bushings from the M5 thread aren't what the author claims?

[RyansBMW]

Good lord this thread has gone off the rails.

OP, I had the shake and brake issue last summer. My front suspension was brand new so I knew it revolved around the brakes. My issue turned out to be a frozen caliper that either left deposits on the rotor or it warped it. After replacing the caliper, I tried a series of 80-20mph hard stops on the highway at 2am to re-bed the pads or try to burn off the deposits. That didnt cure the issue so I replaced the rotors and the problem was gone. Some people take the rotors to a shop and turn them, but I think rotors are cheap enough where I just would rather replace the pair instead.

To the OE vs aftermarket discussion, it all depends on where the parts are being used. Meyle HD is proven to last longer than the OE bushings in the thrust arms. I bought my car with ~70k miles. Not sure if it was the original thrust arms or not, but they were toast. Replaced with HD and I got over 100k miles. They were actually in good shape still when I removed them but since I was replacing all the other bushings, I went ahead and replaced them as well.

[lesguy]

i too have a random slight steering wheel shimmy on braking. Wheels balanced well, checked, re checked. Tire pressure triple checked. Suspension pieces and bushings inspect fine. Me thinks the cheap rotors (its a crapshoot with those Ive found out. Sometimes they can perform flawlessly, other times vibration). I think my next set of rotors will be the kind that dont rust on the hubs/vanes. Ive heard that the rotor rust buildup has potential to cause balance issues after awhile. Admittedly I have no scientific evidence to back that up so dont taze me bros

[geargrinder]

Well my post was on whole about 98% purely factual. Yes 27 was hyperbole and perhaps some frustration escapes from having to constantly battle falsehoods, but I didn't really come at anybody. Regardless. Sorry about that, I will try to be nicer about correcting factual errors even if they come up again and again from the same quarters. Otherwise I stick by the facts and stick by proven fact that oil loss is cause of bushing failure and that empty hydraulic bushings are failed and will not function, and that HD bushings are a different construction than the OE style to address this fact.

[auaq]

Well my post was on whole about 98% purely factual. Yes 27 was hyperbole and perhaps some frustration escapes from having to constantly battle falsehoods, but I didn't really come at anybody. Regardless. Sorry about that, I will try to be nicer about correcting factual errors even if they come up again and again from the same quarters. Otherwise I stick by the facts and stick by proven fact that oil loss is cause of bushing failure and that empty hydraulic bushings are failed and will not function, and that HD bushings are a different construction than the OE style to address this fact.

False. Only tacos and chilies work. Didn't you get my memo?

[BimmrMeUpSnotty]

I am tired of the same arguments that go on, over, and over, and over, ........ . . Jeezuz,Cripes, doesn't anyone do searches anymore??? . . ........and over, and over,......

[bostonaudi]

Well my post was on whole about 98% purely factual. Yes 27 was hyperbole and perhaps some frustration escapes from having to constantly battle falsehoods, but I didn't really come at anybody. Regardless. Sorry about that, I will try to be nicer about correcting factual errors even if they come up again and again from the same quarters. Otherwise I stick by the facts and stick by proven fact that oil loss is cause of bushing failure and that empty hydraulic bushings are failed and will not function, and that HD bushings are a different construction than the OE style to address this fact.

My original point was you don't need poly or aftermarket solutions like spherical bearings to quell brake shimmy. I consider Lemforder an OE replacement and given sometimes poor experience with Meyle parts they won't be on my E39. If that's a factual error than so be it. My shimmy fix was OE rotors - car is now super smooth, 1 month old Meyle rotors chucked in the trash.

My take on oil filled bushings is as follows - oil loss is a symptom of bushing failure. Oil loss is caused by ruptured bushing rubber, caused by age, sometimes harsh weather conditions and repeated stress. With a better engineered bump stop in the bushing, such as with new Lemforder replacements, at least the movement causal effect is reduced.

The same issue happens with rear E36 RTAB bushings due to excessive sideways movement, install RTAB limiters and the causal factor is reduced. Stock OEM RTAB bushings last a much longer time with limiters. Even Meyle HD bushings may not last long if the stress conditions that prematurely wore out the original bushings aren't addressed, either with limiters or bump stops etc. Poly obviously won't suffer oil leaks, trade off is NVH, noise when cold, and lack of articulation for multi axis movement.

Vorshlag got this right:

https://vorshlag-store.com/products/...iters-full-set

[philly98540]

I did Meyle HD made for the X5 here

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ing-in-E39-540

They are holding up great. THey have a better deflection stop built in to reduce stress during hard braking etc.

[wagons ho]

So, I'm stumped. Last year I replaced the thrust arms with Lemforder units, and less than 3k miles later the vibration was back under braking and between 55-65 mph. It wasn't that bad, and last weekend I finally got around to replacing the bushings with X5 Meyle HD versions and the vibration while driving is gone, but under braking it is much more violent! I have swapped tires (winter/summer) and it doesn't make a difference, and the brakes are fairly new up there. Is there something that I can specifically check out to see where this might be coming from?

The original post, to which i replied, brakes then tie rods.
After much back and forth, Pbussey stated he was getting new brake parts and tie rod center link/ ends.
But was it the brakes or tie rods? By throwing more parts than required at it, i guess we will never know.

[pbussey]

Well, I'll be replacing the brakes this afternoon after the rotors are delivered, and the tie rods/center link/idler arm(the bushing needed replacement anyway)

FYI, the Stoptech Street pads come with new spring clips and an entire set of caliper pin boots, so no need to spend extra $$$ on those parts.

[StephenVA]

You are on the right path....

Clean the hubs before installing the rotors to ensure there are no run out issues.

[ViolinARC]

[pbussey]

So, I got the brake rotors and pads installed and bedded in about 40 minutes after work yesterday, and that solved most of the shaking! I still had the clunk from the idler arm though, so I took it all back apart and began the struggle of fitting a puller onto the Pitman arm. Got it all out and reassembled by midnight, and now the only vibration is from an out-of-balance rear tire. The front end has never been so stable on this car since I've had it, and I'm sure it'll be even better after the alignment today!

Notes: Attach the idler arm after the Pitman arm. You will save yourself a lot of grief!
The jaw-style pullers just simply cannot grip the arm to press the joint out (I have 6 different kinds!!!). The best Pitman arm puller for the job looks like this, but it's a bit of an ordeal to get it onto the arm.

[geargrinder]

Good stuff. Those V8 steering arms are a sneaky under-maintained mechanism for a lot of cars on the road I suspect.

[pbussey]

Good stuff. Those V8 steering arms are a sneaky under-maintained mechanism for a lot of cars on the road I suspect.

I agree. Months ago, I bought the bushing for the idler arm for $45, and promptly lost it. I bought a FEBI idler arm assembly for $56, and being so cheap (and the source of probably most braking clunks) I wonder why more people don't replace them...

Oh, and just this morning I found the bushing I meant to press in! My luck

[StephenVA]

Congrats! Another brake shaking issue solved by thoughtful problem solving. Good job and thanks for posting the resolution.

[ViolinARC]

That was my experience too but it was only temporary...the shaking returned shortly thereafter so I'm in this for a longer test period. The only thing that I have found to be effective at eliminating this annoying issue, was to replace the thrust arms with OE and the TAB's with mono-balls. The ride and braking on the '03 feels amazing now so in the near future, the '00 will be getting the same upgrade. That is my experience with two different 540i's...

The '00 Sport and '03 M-sport both received Powerflex TAB upgrades previously and MOST of the NVH was gone but not completely. As time passed, both rides started doing their thing again but with much less "violence" than before. Since I had been revisiting this issue more than once with the '00, just for kicks, I decided to simply update the thrust arms on the '03 with OE and press in the G.A.S. mono-ball kit (I know, expensive options) vs. all the other replacement "upgrades". To my surprise, I noticed that EVERYTHING smoothed out on my way to the tire shop (I had thought the balding Dunlops the OP had put on were part of the issue but apparently not). After having new Conti SureContactRX's installed, the car feels and drives like a brand new BMW (comparing to an '08 545i and Tesla Model 'S')!!

Just FME...

[pbussey]

Smallish update: On Friday, I drove to the alignment shop, drove to work, drove home, and drove 72 miles up into the mountains with no issues. Hopped in the car on Saturday night to go 10 miles down the road and the damn 55mph shake is back! There is still no shimmy under braking, but what the hell, man?!?!

Violin, you wouldn't happen to have a coupon for those G.A.S. monoballs, would you? I've been getting really fast at removing thrust arms this year...

edit: let me just note that every arm was tightened while weighted, to remove any suspicion from that.

[auaq]

Let's modify E39 suspension in the front by making it an SLA design. What say?

[pbussey]

Let's modify E39 suspension in the front by making it an SLA design. What say?

One could do it, but the change in scrub radius would be really, really bad and probably make it into a crappy drive

[wagons ho]

Sticky or dragging caliper?

[philly98540]

What tires you got? Excuse if already said. Maybe flat spotting? Did it go away after driving a bit?