4hp22 sudden death, dammit! - SOLVED

[ross1]

'89 535ia 90k miles, mostly sits around, barely driven at all the past six months or so.
The trans. has never slipped and always shifted crisp and firm, fluid is full and not burnt, no "trans program" warning.
Last two or three times shuttled about the driveway or around the block it shuddered quite a bit on take off and made few chunk, chunk sounds, lost all drive yesterday, no forward or reverse regardless of gear or mode selection. Perhaps 2 or3 miles since first onset of symptoms.
If the engine is shut down it will sometimes(seldom) move a few feet with a faint whine and then lose drive.
My thoughts are torque converter or pump failure.
Anyone have similar experience or care to share their thoughts?

[south42]

Hi Ross, I am going to assume you checked the fluid level and checked that the plug to the computer is in there nice and tight.


Andy

[ross1]

Fluid is full and decent looking, no burnt smell. It never slipped and drove great prior.
I haven't gotten under it but will as soon as I can push it into the shop. I hadn't thought of a connector. Is there any electrical fault that would cause no drive? I know it's electronically controlled but to an existing purely mechanical old design.
Sure would be great if it were only a mouse eaten wire or something similar but it made some gruesome noises.
Got a swap for me buddy??
Whisky, Shogun, any ideas to save my hide??

[ronald1855]

90k miles is about middle aged for a transmission. Maybe unplug the trans ecu or transmission connector to force it into safe mode and see if it works. Pump can be tested by unbolting the trans cooling output line at the radiator and starting the engine to see if oil spurts for like 10 seconds. Must top up fluid after that.

Maybe drop the pan and see what is left there. From that you can id what went wrong. If it was something physical. GL.

- - - Updated - - -

Just remembered. Torque convertor has a test. Dunno how relevant it is but its easy to try. Engage gear. Step on the brakes hard and gas at the same time. The engine should not want to go past 2k or 2.2k on the tach no matter how much you It should bog down. This is safe if you don't hold it for more than 3 seconds at the choke point. Only on a warmed up transmission.

If it keeps going up, or chokes at a much lower rpm. Er that's not normal but I can't remember what that shows about the torque convertor exactly. It was a long time ago.

[shogun]

The trans cannot break when the car is seldom used, must be a small thing to find.
I recently heard many cases about this:
If the shifter cannot be moved: Not only the cable can be the problem, I assume you might soon need a new part for the transmission, quite often that it breaks, that is a typical symptom that the selector valve is the problem, that material expands/swells slightly with age. But that is a cheap part and easy to replace, a bit more than a trans filter change.

The selector valve inside the valve body was originally made out of a kind of plastic/resin, that breaks on many transmissions, so you have the feeling first that shifting is hard and then you can shift and shift and nothing happens, this part is now made of different material, example 1056 327 173 01 selector valve http://www.thectsc.com/products/sele...alve-84-3.html
6 cases I know of within last month on E32 730 M60B30 with 5HP18, on an E36 M3 with 5HP18, and on E34 with a 5HP18 and another one on a E36 with 5HP18.That part is included in every valve body overhaul kit.
To replace that part you have to remove the transmission oil pan, the trans filter, then losen the valve body and drop it a bit and then you can change that part. No need to disassemble the valve body.
http://www.bimmernut.com/forum/showt...With-1995-530I
https://blog.bavauto.com/16677/bmw-a...2-e83-ga6l45r/
Product ID : 1056 327 173 or sometimes called 1056 327 173 01
Transmission Designation 5HP18-5HP18A-5HP19-5HP19FL-5HP19FLA-5HP19HLA-5HP24-5HP24A-5HP30

or the balls are too small, easy to fix, see my website 4HP22 valve body overhaul http://twrite.org/shogunnew/files/ja...Valvebody.html

[ross1]

Shifter mechanism seems normal but I've yet to get under the car.

disconnecting a cooling line seems a good idea to look for pressure from the pump

Colin, are you out there?

[whiskychaser]

Shifter mechanism seems normal but I've yet to get under the car.

disconnecting a cooling line seems a good idea to look for pressure from the pump

Colin, are you out there?

In Dublin, Ross. Something weird going on. It should be screaming trans prog as what you are putting in at the front isnt coming out of the back. Pulling the tcm plug is a good start. If you dont get a forward and reverse gear then something is very wrong. Back tomorrow and will pick this up then

[imola38]

It could be as simple as a plugged pick up screen on the filter, or loss of seal/suction at the o-ring. Sounds like the front pump isn't getting fluid.

It should be obvious once you drop the pan. The 4hp22 is a nearly bulletproof trans, assuming it hasn't been revved often in Park or Neutral.


Ben

[ronald1855]

It should be obvious once you drop the pan.

If you're dropping the pan, might as well have a new filter and gasket on hand. Even if you swap transmissions later you can use it for that eventually.

The 4hp22 is a nearly bulletproof trans, assuming it hasn't been revved often in Park or Neutral.

I can attest to that. My old E30 had a major bang during up and reverse shifting for years. Shortly before I sold it, I had a buddy rebuild it as a favor to me. New clutches, seals, O rings. Still remember, $197 for the main overhaul kit. Valve body cleaned but not rebuilt. The bang dropped by 80% but was still there. Must be something major mechanical. Anyway drove for another year+ after that.

Point is, the problem did not get worse at any time even though the bang was big enough to wander if bad things happening in there.

assuming it hasn't been revved often in Park or Neutral.

What happens if you rev it often in park of neutral ?

[ross1]

I started the car today and tried moving it a few feet as where I left it yesterday was in the way. It moved the car length I needed. After putting it back into park I let the engine idle a while to charge a flat battery. In a few seconds I could hear a faint whine, I tried to move it again but no go. Idling a while this faint whine would come every so often for a few seconds then disappear. Once the car had run more than few seconds there was no drive. It seems if the engine has been off it will go ever so briefly, the whine seems concurrent with the end of power transmission.
I'm wondering if the filter fell off and once the engine is off enough fluid runs back into the pan to be scavenged,
This trans never gave a hint of trouble in my brief, ~1k miles of ownership.

[imola38]

The faint whine sounds like the front pump starving for fluid. I remember having an old E28 528E with the same trans and similar sound as yours, except it lost all drive while moving down the road at about 50mph. Upon dropping the pan, I was met with an ugly sight; a sludge filled filter that was completely blocked with the substance. I don't think the trans had been serviced in 30 years.

Whatever is blocking the filter falls down when the engine is off and suction ceases, then gets pulled right back up when then engine is running and pump is sucking.

Any history on the trans? I know you said the fluid looked ok, but when was it last serviced?

As the previous poster suggested, a new filter, gasket and fluid on hand would be an excellent idea.

Don't run the car anymore in this condition if possible. You're slipping the clutches quite a bit, even just moving it in the driveway, that's the juddering feeling you're experiencing. It doesn't take too much of that to destroy any automatic.

Let us know what you find!

Ben

[shogun]

I have found such whine when the o-ring of the filter is damaged or not the right size, then the pump sucks with the ATF also air, see here some pics, scroll down http://e32b12.blogspot.jp/search/label/4HP24
Also the mesh filter in front of the pressure solenoid valve could be clogged, see also pics in the link

[XAlt]

I'd drop the whole pan + valve body.

[ross1]

Thanks guys, I'll let you know what I find. Fingers crossed, meanwhile Andy has a 5 spd swap on the line if needed.

[ross1]

If you're dropping the pan, might as well have a new filter and gasket on hand. Even if you swap transmissions later you can use it for that eventually.



I can attest to that. My old E30 had a major bang during up and reverse shifting for years. Shortly before I sold it, I had a buddy rebuild it as a favor to me. New clutches, seals, O rings. Still remember, $197 for the main overhaul kit. Valve body cleaned but not rebuilt. The bang dropped by 80% but was still there. Must be something major mechanical. Anyway drove for another year+ after that.

Point is, the problem did not get worse at any time even though the bang was big enough to wander if bad things happening in there.



What happens if you rev it often in park of neutral ?

You? Again!
pick up the cluephone

[whiskychaser]

FWIW, I'd be asking:
Does it go in and out of park? If it does, the shift cable isn't broken and is reasonably well adjusted
Does the cluster display correct gear and mode? Assume it does as you don't mention it
What happens when you ditch the TCM? That cuts power to the pressure regulator. If it doesn't move then, it isn't going to
So what could it be:
Choked filter? If the ATF is clean, what is it choked with?
Choked pressure valve filter? As above
Broken manual shift valve? Same part breaks on the 5HPs. Pretty rare on a 4HP for some reason but worth a look
Potential kiss of death if I say it. But the A clutch can go all of a sudden. Then you have a box full of nothing

[ross1]

FWIW, I'd be asking:
Does it go in and out of park? If it does, the shift cable isn't broken and is reasonably well adjusted
Does the cluster display correct gear and mode? Assume it does as you don't mention it
What happens when you ditch the TCM? That cuts power to the pressure regulator. If it doesn't move then, it isn't going to
So what could it be:
Choked filter? If the ATF is clean, what is it choked with?
Choked pressure valve filter? As above
Broken manual shift valve? Same part breaks on the 5HPs. Pretty rare on a 4HP for some reason but worth a look
Potential kiss of death if I say it. But the A clutch can go all of a sudden. Then you have a box full of nothing

Thanks for your thoughts. Shift cable isn't the issue and the dash display shows correct selection.
I'm hoping that it's something preventing fluid to the pump, clogged filter(fluid looks too good but maybe it was changed recently by PO), failed filter o-ring or maybe the S.O.B. just fell off. Wishful thinking, I know.
I've read about the A clutch, it doesn't smell like that. I had one go in my old Jag and you could get it move ever so slightly if you revved it.
Gotta get under this old car and get dirty.
Why do I love these old heaps so?

[ronald1855]

The trans. has never slipped and always shifted crisp and firm, fluid is full and not burnt, no "trans program" warning. Last two or three times shuttled about the driveway or around the block it shuddered quite a bit on take off and made few chunk, chunk sounds,

Why did you drive before inspecting it, after you first noticed abnormal shuddering? Were you unable to localize the sound to the transmission, did sound like it could be the engine ?

Are you able to interrogate the tcm with a code reader for tcm specific codes ?

[whiskychaser]

This is where I kick myself for not reading your post properly. The A clutch is for forward gears and you already said you can't get reverse either. Main line pressure is what counts. And you get whatever the pump can deliver if you ditch the TCM. If you crack a cooler line when it is running and don't get wet, the pump is either not working or not picking up. I don't think it picks up ATF in park so maybe give it a quick go in neutral and shift through the box as if you were filling it? After that, it may well be time to get your hands dirty

[ross1]

4hp22 & obc 005.jpgWell, fluid was overfilled and much worse than I have expressed earlier, not sure what these old eyes were seeing the first time, it's old and dirty yet not burnt, no sparkles.

Disconnecting the trans computer made no difference.
Filter was firmly attached, o-ring in one piece and still flexible. Magnets slightly fuzzy, nothing out of the ordinary and there is no metal debris in the pan.
I am thinking choked filter or an internal leak. I went around the valve body bolts and was able to snug a few, notably one adjacent to the pick up.
I'll dismantle the filter screen later and examine but see nothing obviously clogging it, really hard to see into these.
4hp22 & obc 006.jpgAnd, of course, it wouldn't be an old 4hp if I didn't snap at least one pan bolt off.4hp filter 001.jpg

EDIT; Filter is gruesome, see pic. above. All that crud, including a silicone worm, was on the BACK side of the filter. It appears the fluid was being picked up through the seam between the two attachment bolts. Perhaps an over tightened filter that distorted.
Anyway, new filter coming. I'm gonna fill 'er up and see. Pan gasket is out of stock, I need to beg for them to break up a paper and rubber kit or perhaps I could just wrap the old one with Teflon tape.

[shogun]

In any case check the metal filter in front of the fluid pressure regulating valve https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...hifting-solved
This solenoid is the ONLY one with a screen in it and gets blocked up

[ross1]

In any case check the metal filter in front of the fluid pressure regulating valve https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...hifting-solved
This solenoid is the ONLY one with a screen in it and gets blocked up

Will do!

[Tre0Tre34]

Yuck! I hope (and think) you have found your problem.

perhaps I could just wrap the old one with Teflon tape.

I hear thread tape is better than proper, OEM gaskets anyway. Just wish they made more varieties of colors!

[ross1]

Yuck! I hope (and think) you have found your problem.





I hear thread tape is better than proper, OEM gaskets anyway. Just wish they made more varieties of colors!

Maybe, it's pretty clear it has eaten some crap so we'll see how it survived.

The yellow for gas pipe might work better. What do you think?

[XAlt]

Classic symptoms of the solenoid screen up top being clogged is slow and loud shifts.

The pan on our E32 was spotless but I decided to drop the VB and found the screen clogged, cheap fixes are the best.