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Thread: Began with a Crank No Start - but Now have No Crank No Start

  1. #1
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    Began with a Crank No Start - but Now have No Crank No Start

    1999 528i I have owned this car for the last year; has overall been running great 200k miles on it.
    It has been having some hard to re-start issues, especially when itbecame warmer outside-Live in the Detroit area/Michigan.
    After leaving trunk open, car battery drained. ( although I don't think it should have )
    I trickle re-charged off car overnight, and re-installed.
    At this point the car would crank but would not start

    I Read codes
    Crankshaft sensor and EWS were the highlights--others were ABS, but nothing that pointed me to this issue.
    I tried to re-initialized keys ( maybe was my big mistake ) and not have No crank No start

    Could I have bared a key or ?

    The key fab opens closes doors etc. via transmitter and keyin door lock; but No crank now.

    Or will a non-operating crank sensor cause a No cranksituation? Planning on replacing the crank sensor, but wanted to do plenty of homework first; especially after maybe messing up the 2 keys I have for this vehicle.

    Thanks everyone/anyone!

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    A bad crankshaft sensor inhibits fuel and spark, but not the starter motor.


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    Is there a"Click" at least when you try to start? If so, then you have to test if power is getting to the starter motor. If not, then no signal is getting from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, or the solenoid is dead.
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    Ahh yes. EWS no start 101....

    Step 1 Key -> EWS recognition = starter / crank... so you had that going fine for a while. When you said re-init keys did you mean the "click the buttons while having both thumbs up yer..." Or do you mean you used a diag software to re-auth keys w the EWS? If the latter, then yes that's how you could have gone from crank to no crank.

    Then there's step 2 EWS -> DME sync recognition = turn on injectors and ignition. If you have EWS codes it def won't start even if other stuff is OK. If you tried to start it w way way low volts the EWS sync could have gone off I suppose. Since you had that error the EWS sync almost certainly needs to be reset w software.

    I suspect the low volts could have also thrown the crank sensor error, however indeed it also could be bad. Sometimes they go bad w no warning, sometimes they'll go bad on a few random intermittent occasions first. But not always.
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  5. #5
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    There is no "click" at this time; but there was a "crank no start" prior to me thinking the keys/EWS needed initializing.

    I initialized the keys with the protocol; key in ignition / button clicks / doors lock unlock etc. Both transmitter keys now function; all lights and radio operate, but still No crank.

    I have keep the battery fully charged; trickle charge, for the past 2 weeks of this all starting.

    I am 99.9% sure that the No Crank began just after I thought the Re-ini keys would solve the original problem. Once I get it back to Crank No Start I plan to replace Crankshaft sensor, but I really think I have to solve this EWS issue first, because even with a new sensor, it may not crank.

    Thanks everyone for weighing in!

  6. #6
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    OK - the button click etc. etc. initialization stuff has nothing to do whatsoever with starting the car. That is only for identifying the remotes to the unlocking system. Its too bad that's not made clearer in the instructions.

    Perhaps the EWS module itself is going bad. Rare, but not impossible. The EWS on these cars IS effectively the starter relay, so it has full control over whether the engine turns over (and therefore you can ignore all the other idiot posts/threads about "check the starter relay!" "where's my starter relay, the shop says I need a new one but can't find it!")

    The best thing to do IMO for a next step would be to have proper BMW diag software like INPA or DIS and to plug that into the car and read the EWS module. If you connect to the module "live" you can see how many keys are active, and whether the key in the ignition at the time is authorized etc. So you could check both your keys to see if they are still turned on and recognized. If they aren't recognized then either... the EWS is bad, or maybe the ring antenna or wiring is bad (again rare but nothings impossible...) or one of the other 'required for starter' signals is bad - ie. Park / Neutral.

    Now normally a bad crank sensor only comes into play w/ a crank-no-start as the DME tries to crank the motor but then sees "nothing moving". However perhaps there's a scenario with a type of crank sensor failure where even the starter operation could be blocked. Like if the crank sensor error is 'dead short' maybe the EWS would know 'well there's no way this thing is ever going to work' so maybe in fact it would not trigger the starter after all. But that'd be a somewhat undocumented functionality and I doubt it's that.

    Read up here to demystify the scary voodoo EWS... its pretty straightforward once you read the doc.. Start on page 20 for EWS 3.3, in fact the real business starts on page 21 "principle of operation". It explains everything I've told you and plenty of other little bits like how the batteries/remote stuff have no impact on starting.
    http://www.e38.org/EWS.pdf

    Come to think of it looking at that doc again - the pic on page 22 is very helpful as it shows all inputs/outputs for EWS. Another dependency for start is that the car is unlocked & alarm disarmed. Is your car perhaps thinking its' locked/armed? I've seen the locking system get confused and scrambled by low battery condition before and act funny. If you locked the car w/ the remote say (like inside while initializing the keys) and then tried to start, maybe it was in 'locked and armed' mode and the GM didn't authorize the start? Long shot there but worth thinking about given you had your low voltage situation. A nice LONG disconnnect of the battery (say an hour or two would be more than sufficient) would not be a bad idea if you never did that after the super low voltage situation.
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    I would recommend something simple and actually start by checking the battery. You mentioned running it dead and then trying to trickle charge it overnight. It takes a good ten hours on a 10 amp charger to recharge one of these batteries. The fact that it was run dead can irreparably damage the battery especially if it is older. Geargrinder knows his stuff, but even his help will not do any good if the battery is shot.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for clarifying Key Initialization has 0 to do with no start.

    I will give it a long disconnect and see what happens next - great simple suggestion! and then I will double check to be sure "locked and armed Mode" is ok.

    Also, I would appreciate any suggestions on where to purchase proper diag. software you reference - my recent fathers day gift code reader pulled some info, but I am sure the correct package would be more helpful. I had to borrow a proper 20 pin cable to get communication to the reader, so that is something I also need to locate. Thanks again!

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    I have verified that the battery is fully charged - but I appreciate the suggestion!
    This all began a few weeks ago when I had no crank no voltage; so job 1 was to get the battery back up to full charge.
    Looking back, The mistake I made was not to open truck and let vehicle go to sleep prior to removing battery to work on it. I try to be so careful, and go step by step, but goofed this simple job up.

    But once battery was fully charged, I would at least get the crank and no start. This is the point I should have replaced the crank sensor, but I had to use my fathers day gift to read some codes and went a step backwards - but I will get it started and back on road. Thanks!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uturn540 View Post
    The fact that it was run dead can irreparably damage the battery especially if it is older.
    I'd second this too. If the battery isn't known new, don't trust the "just checked after charging" 100%. The battery I just took out of my 540 would charge up to full voltage "apparently fine" but in fact there were very few amps available (as evidenced by no starts if you left anything on in the car for a little while) and voltage would droop fast when left sitting.
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  11. #11
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    To step in here, a little late, these cars will sometimes totally "kill" a key if it is in the ignition when the battery is allowed to go completely dead. The dealer could not explain this either. Several years ago I was moving and during that time I accidentally allowed the battery to go completely dead. The result was that even after replacing the battery the car would not recognize the key any longer, a different key worked fine. The original key would not even "click" any longer. I took it to the dealer and they tried for over an hour to to get the original key to work again. They never could, even after removing from the list in EWS and reinstalling several times it just would not recognize that bad key - finally gave up and got a new key. The dealer said they had never seen that before but several others have since had similar problems - that was back in '06 when I had that occur..
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxDarth View Post
    To step in here, a little late, these cars will sometimes totally "kill" a key if it is in the ignition when the battery is allowed to go completely dead. The dealer could not explain this either. Several years ago I was moving and during that time I accidentally allowed the battery to go completely dead. The result was that even after replacing the battery the car would not recognize the key any longer, a different key worked fine. The original key would not even "click" any longer. I took it to the dealer and they tried for over an hour to to get the original key to work again. They never could, even after removing from the list in EWS and reinstalling several times it just would not recognize that bad key - finally gave up and got a new key. The dealer said they had never seen that before but several others have since had similar problems - that was back in '06 when I had that occur..
    Well, this is interesting. What year was the car, TxDarth? I'm wondering if this event would affect only the newer diamond-shaped keys, and not the older 3-button keys. I had done the idiotic "leave the key in the 'on' position overnite and killed the battery"*. But after a charging session, the key worked fine.

    * This happened during an R&R session on the front wheel bearings (key on, turn steering wheel to left lock, key off, remove bearing bolt 1of4, key on, turn wheel to right lock, forget to turn key off, remove bearing bolts 2thru4, stop work for the nite, return the next morning to find a dead E39)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed CT View Post
    Well, this is interesting. What year was the car, TxDarth? I'm wondering if this event would affect only the newer diamond-shaped keys, and not the older 3-button keys. I had done the idiotic "leave the key in the 'on' position overnite and killed the battery"*. But after a charging session, the key worked fine.

    * This happened during an R&R session on the front wheel bearings (key on, turn steering wheel to left lock, key off, remove bearing bolt 1of4, key on, turn wheel to right lock, forget to turn key off, remove bearing bolts 2thru4, stop work for the nite, return the next morning to find a dead E39)
    Mine is an '01 740iS but it does have the diamond key and it was not even turn to the "on" position. I always leave the keys in my car while in the garage. I always know where they are - don't have to look for them....
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  14. #14
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    Agreed good info Darf. As above it would be unrelated to battery - the battery and remote stuff is all completely isolated - but the transponder chip is constantly being read and rewritten, so sure a low voltage situation could corrupt the chip! Not something that's often heard of but totally plausible. Thanks for that...
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  15. #15
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    Thanks Everyone and TxDarth for the keys in car story. The only other person I knew that would leave keys in vehicle was my late father; his keys never left the ignition...freaked people out but he never ever had to look for them....and no one, I mean no one, would ever fool with this truck.....good memories a really great man.

    For the sake of completeness I went back over my work & situation beginning last night.

    I verified that the truck light could not have caused my 1 year old BMW battery to discharge, as that light also goes to sleep after 16 minutes.( I was not 100% sure of that until I saw it myself) So now I am not sure how this all started; but that's an aside for now. I left trunk open all day and keys were not in ignition, so not sure what circuit was open...
    Also, the initial batter voltage last night was 12.8 and then I turned on the headlights and radio(to cool my nerves a little ) and the voltage only dropped to 12.32v after about 90 seconds. The battery then rebounded to 12.8v, after I truck was open for the 16 minute test to see if light would go off. So I am now completely sure I have a fully charged battery.

    Thanks geargrinder for pointing me to my next step which is dig deeper into the EWS controller, and the again clarifying the very important note about EWS and no start; I re-read the document you referenced and stumbled and skimmed another from Snap-On doc reviewing all of the controllers -116pgs.

    Now I took my new scan tool and tried to read the EWS on my2001 525i wagon to practice a little and I was able to read that controller's live data. I was not sure this tool & a novice operator could accomplish this. There were about 15 fields beginning with "starter enabled" and ending with "status central locking". I could read that I had key 5 in ignition, "key disabled=No" etc. So once my new 20pin to 16pin adapter arrives next week and hopefully this one will communicate with this scan tool, I can see if somehow someway my button pushing disabled a key or what is going on in the EWS.
    Again, prior to fooling with the initializing of keys, I had a Crank and No start; and now I have No crank No start; only lights radio.

    I will report back - thanks again everyone.

  16. #16
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    That's PERFECTE. If you have a scan code that shows those detailed fields and then the 'starter enabled' field, that's IDEAL. If that says yes, then you know it's something else.. if it says no, you know you need to look at the detailed fields to see why it says no...

    Good luck...
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  17. #17
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    The 20 pin adapter arrived today; 3 days ahead of plan ship date….what a great company!


    The faults are following:
    EWS
    SZW
    KOM
    LCM
    Airbag
    ZKE


    I began with the dive into EWS as “starter enabled NO" sounded like the starting point.


    Here is Live data that gave values not equal to our running 525it
    - starter enabled NO
    - starter motor blocked due to P/N YES
    - statue DME wire ENABLED
    --I can include more if needed...
    Also
    - I was able to read both key numbers One was #2 other #5
    - both keys "transmit" according to the reader - but I have to work the button pushing exercise again to get #5 to work - but thanks to greargrinder again as we all now know that has 0 to do with a no start issue.


    I have been trying to locate if I can read or live data/ for The crankshaft sensor,. I have not seen a fault code for it, and thought I read it would produce one if it has failed, but could be wrong.


    that’s the breakdown; as always any input is greatly appreciated.

  18. #18
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    Beautiful.

    So - per the doc - its very definitely and logically not firing the starter because of either park/neutral switch (if automatic) or clutch switch (if manual).

    Check those wires. Getting to the EWS plug is a little bit of a pain. Getting to the trans switch or a clutch switch may be easier way to go.

    Here's a thing: It seems like an odd freak occurrence but I myself had a low battery event after which I had exact same problem and it seemed like the clutch switch didn't work anymore on a perfectly operating car with like a 3yr old OEM switch in it. I used NCSExpert to disable the clutch switch requirement as a 'shortcut' and have been too lazy/otherpriorities to figure out if my clutch switch truly is busted or if its a wiring issue or what.

    That would not explain the actual crank-but-no-start, which could still be the alignment question. Were there any actual error codes in the EWS or DME? If you 'lose alignment', there should be errors.

    Not sure if you can get live data on crank sensor but it would be under DME and... probably under Analog values as an RPM rate when engine is turning? Never looked honestly. No sometimes they don't throw a code when they are bad.
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  19. #19
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    Well we all know to double check our work, I thought I did, but I didn’t go back thru the fuses and should have.


    This afternoon I noticed I had no range light on instrument cluster. I was led to this because of the “starter motor P/N” code.


    While I was looking at the wiring diagrams for trans selector switch etc. I noticed fuse F15 was missing - missing - what the heck. Others in there are missing so going back to that tomorrow.


    Of course this circuit is connected to range selector and EWS. So once I put in a new fuse ( pull out guide in glove box and it calls for 7.5a - Bentley Guide 15a …I went by fuse guide) I am back to “Crank but No Start“…which is better than no crank no start-- all things considered.


    Next step is to trickle charge up over night, pull codes again, and get it started. I will read up on the best way to get it started from this point and repost if I get stuck,.gear grinder I appreciate the tips and follow up - hope to find the right fix and get this back on the road.


    Thanks again!

  20. #20
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    The Silver Aspen is back on the road! Here are some final repair details.
    I replaced the crankshaft position sensor with GBMW sensor and to my dismay the car would still not start. I cleared the fault code, re-read codes and no more cps code, so I went to plan B - Bore Wash.
    I had not choice but to assume bore wash, and that is what was another reason for the "crank but no start". Also, while going through the process of adding the teaspoon of oil to each spark plug hole, I installed new plugs as the old ones had plenty of miles on them. So low and behold, before I barley turned the ignition on, it car started right up and of course plenty of smoke was coming out of the tail pipe. I took it for a 20 min ride and for the 3rd day now, it starts right up and runs better than ever. I still have to get both keys initialized, the "dog is chasing his tail" if you know what I mean, but both keys start and open the car so that's just on the to do list.

    I appreciate all the feedback and input from everyone. The bore wash was real, as my repeated restarting from when the battery or CPS went completely out, did in fact "wash" the inside of the pistons. The bore wash posts and comments really helped point me in the right direction.
    Thanks again!

  21. #21
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    Help!!! I have a 2001 e38 recently the Nav started asking for a code then gave me a 10min. Countdown but would never countdown. I would get no crank. I removed fuse 26 car cranked and started up, but of course cluster wouldn't work. I drove the car for sometime like this, then one morning just crank and no start. Changed crankshaft position sensor, to no avail. Put the fuse back in got a new ews from bmw. Still no crank removed fuse 26 again still crank no start. Can someone lead me in the right direction.

  22. #22
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    Shouldn't you start your own thread?
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by doesntgtnebeter View Post
    Can someone lead me in the right direction.
    Yes we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmak View Post
    Shouldn't you start your own thread?
    What he said.
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