Vorshlag motor mount stud broken! Which resulted in much $$$$ carnage.

[DocWyte]

So I have a track day this Saturday. I just installed a used Traqmate system and last night after work I decided it'd be a good idea to make sure all my wiring for the Traqmate was working. Had to redo the power wire and pop in a new fuse for the glove box light circuit, which is where I piggy backed switched power for the Traqmate.

Then I started the car to see if my tach signal is working. BOOM! WTF is that?! I turn the car off immediately and go investigate.

This is what I find....



That's a BRAND new fan! Not only that, when it exploded, it also punched a hole in my BRAND new MZ3 S54 radiator, plus it broke off the top of the radiator shroud. WTF!

I bought this car used and it has Vorshlag red motor mounts. I go to check them and find that both motor mount upper nuts are finger tight. Ummm, ok, so that's why I just broke $300+ worth of brand new parts. So I go to tighten them and the drivers side one basically just spins after I put very little torque on it. Great, the stud is broken in the motor mount! Apparently this is a common failure on these?

Vorshlag sells an "updated" base plate/stud for the mounts, so I call them first thing this morning to see if I can get them tomorrow. Nope, they're out of stock and don't know when they'll be making a new batch. In talking with the sales guy there about why the nuts came loose and how a stud can break, I basically got deflection.

Pretty pissed off right now. Yeah, stock motor mounts may sag but the nuts don't back off and the studs don't break! Looks like I'm missing my track day this Saturday because of this.

So what do I do now? Buy a new set of stock motor mounts? Oh yeah, and the hardware for them. Or buy a set of AKG motor mounts?

Also, since I have to buy a new fan and radiator anyways, should I buy the BimmerWorld electric fan setup? Stick with the MZ3 radiator? What about swapping over to a Stewart water pump? Does the Stewart water pump lower coolant temperatures?

[CoMZ302]

Man that sucks, sorry it happened.

I can't comment on the motor mounts (I use solid ones) but I did see an improvement in temps with the stewart pump. Seems crazy expensive, but at least it works.

Sucky.

[olemiss540]

So I have a track day this Saturday. I just installed a used Traqmate system and last night after work I decided it'd be a good idea to make sure all my wiring for the Traqmate was working. Had to redo the power wire and pop in a new fuse for the glove box light circuit, which is where I piggy backed switched power for the Traqmate.

Then I started the car to see if my tach signal is working. BOOM! WTF is that?! I turn the car off immediately and go investigate.

This is what I find....



That's a BRAND new fan! Not only that, when it exploded, it also punched a hole in my BRAND new MZ3 S54 radiator, plus it broke off the top of the radiator shroud. WTF!

I bought this car used and it has Vorshlag red motor mounts. I go to check them and find that both motor mount upper nuts are finger tight. Ummm, ok, so that's why I just broke $300+ worth of brand new parts. So I go to tighten them and the drivers side one basically just spins after I put very little torque on it. Great, the stud is broken in the motor mount! Apparently this is a common failure on these?

Vorshlag sells an "updated" base plate/stud for the mounts, so I call them first thing this morning to see if I can get them tomorrow. Nope, they're out of stock and don't know when they'll be making a new batch. In talking with the sales guy there about why the F the nuts came loose and how the F a stud can break, I basically got deflection.

Pretty pissed off right now. Yeah, stock motor mounts may sag but the nuts don't back off and the studs don't break! Looks like I'm missing my track day this Saturday because of this.

So what do I do now? Buy a new set of stock motor mounts? Oh yeah, and the hardware for them. Or buy a set of AKG motor mounts?

Also, since I have to buy a new fan and radiator anyways, should I buy the BimmerWorld electric fan setup? Stick with the MZ3 radiator? What about swapping over to a Stewart water pump? Does the Stewart water pump lower coolant temperatures?

I run the bimmerworld gruppe n replicas and am happy with them. Defineatly go with the stewart pump. IMO, stick with the stock fan setup if it is a street car, if track only, spal conversion ensure this crap doesnt happen again....

[TXBDan]

I second the bimmerworld solid rubber gruppe n reps.

SW pump + MZ3 radiator + Spal 16' pusher - AC = low temps for me on track and street driving.

[DocWyte]

Well, I wanted to get the Bimmerworld Group N motor mounts but they're back ordered until at least September. Dammit! So I ordered the CSF aluminum radiator, new radiator shroud, Stewart water pump and electric fan kit from Bimmerworld, then called AKG Motorsports and bought a set of their motor mounts.

This was expensive and shouldn't have needed to be done. I also cancelled my track day this Saturday as I won't have the parts in time and I don't feel like doing the labor for this stuff twice by slamming in my old, spare parts, then having to pull them out when the new stuff arrives.

Still blown away that the stud snapped, then was unlucky enough that the "updated" part is out of stock and its unknown when it will be.

[olemiss540]

I second the bimmerworld solid rubber gruppe n reps.

SW pump + MZ3 radiator + Spal 16' pusher - AC = low temps for me on track and street driving.

My setup exactly. Pounded for over 10 weekends (many times co driving) so far and zero movement of the temp needle.

[DocWyte]

My factory temp needle never moves. This despite my VDO auxiliary water temp gauge moving upwards to 40 degrees. The factory gauge is heavily weighted, its not going to move until things are getting really hot...

[TXBDan]

I log temp data and my peaks are like 212F. Most often on track i'm below 200F. My thermostat is a 88C (190F). It just bounced between 190 and 200ish as it should.

[DocWyte]

Gotta like that thick sea level air. I see temps far over that on track up at altitude where I am.

[CoMZ302]

206 max at pueblo two weeks ago - high was only 90 tho.

Also I'm using a puller fan that I've had on a couple different cars.

[mslevin]

I have the AKG 75D motor mounts. High quality pieces, and they actually come apart which makes them slightly easier to install (you don't have to lift the engine as much).

I also have a 16" SPAL puller fan, stock cooling system otherwise, and have no temperature issues on track.

[DocWyte]

CoMZ302, you don't have AC tho. Not having the condenser up front makes a huge difference in temps here...

[MauiM3Mania]

If you are in a jam, I have a set of Vorshlag nylon mounts, less than 1000 road miles. FedEx works wonders.

[CoMZ302]

CoMZ302, you don't have AC tho. Not having the condenser up front makes a huge difference in temps here...

Probably so. I did see cooler temps with the Stewart pump; all the rest of the setup was the same. Just about finished replacing the factory shouting with an aluminum custom taped setup and hoping for a little better oil temps.

[DocWyte]

Maui, appreciate the offer, very kind. I've got parts on the way tho and have already dropped out of my track day on Saturday.

CoMZ302, good to hear as I have a Stewart water pump on the way too. Nothing wrong with the water pump I currently have, just figured since I have everything apart I might as well throw one in, that way I won't have to worry about it ever again.

[MauiM3Mania]

Doc, turns out I couldn't do a one day to CO from Maui. Saturday delivery was going to be quite $ignificant.

I am glad you got things worked out.

[DocWyte]

Yeah, just had to miss my track day for the month. Not real happy about it

[exvitermini2]

I did an LSX swap for a friend about 1.5 years ago. He had purchased all vorshlag parts. After waiting months for headers he called to get a final update, their sublet shop that builds them couldn't say when they were even going to get to them. Also, non of the ABS lines would work with his ABS module, and even more also, the driveshaft had the wrong yoke on it for the trans.

I made multiple calls to them trying to remedy this stuff, and after getting off the phone each time I was basically left with my ====D in my hand. Pretty piss poor customer support from them honestly.

Sucks you had to miss out on a track day due to a known failure point of their products.

[DocWyte]

I'm not sure, but I suspect that the car already has their "upgraded" base plate/studs in it. I base that on the fact that I have two of their old designed base plate/studs sitting in my spare parts box.

I suppose its possible they just got replaced with the old design, so I'll reserve my final judgement until I remove them from the car. It'll be good news/bad news if its their new design. Good news in that they can just send me a new stud and these will be "fine" again, bad news in that their upgraded design still failed.

[///FrankC]

Does no one use UUC? I've been using the red mounts for years with no problems at all!

[E36forever]

I bet most aren't using the UUC mounts. I recently switched from Vorshlag to AKG but not because they failed on me.

[DocWyte]

New AKG mounts are arriving tomorrow. I have the car prepped to remove the Vorshlag mounts.

[Fair]

I'm not sure, but I suspect that the car already has their "upgraded" base plate/studs in it. I base that on the fact that I have two of their old designed base plate/studs sitting in my spare parts box.

I suppose its possible they just got replaced with the old design, so I'll reserve my final judgement until I remove them from the car. It'll be good news/bad news if its their new design. Good news in that they can just send me a new stud and these will be "fine" again, bad news in that their upgraded design still failed.

First of all nobody likes to have parts break and miss track days, sorry to see that. But lets get the facts straight since you decided to post about your issue all over the internets and blame our parts.

From the one and only phone call you have had with us here at Vorshlag, this is what we know: 1) you bought a used car with these mounts previously installed. 2) You haven't been able to determine when they were installed, or how old they are. 3) We don't know if they are our "new" (2012) design or not. So nobody knows how old these parts are nor what they have been subjected to before you bought the car.



Also, just so nobody is confused: these are motorsports parts not made for grandma to drive to church with.



The number one issue we see with the handful of people that broke our motor mounts was that at sometime (usually) right before they broke a stud they had done a clutch or trans repair. And if you hang the transmission off the motor mounts only on a solid or "near-solid" motor mount like this, something is gonna give. The top nuts on the mounts must to be loosened or removed during trans service so that the whole engine + trans is not torquing on two studs. If you ignore this, you will break solid mounts. Jon here at Vorshlag offered to send you new studs last week, if you could tell us if these were the new or old design. That's not "deflection", that's "trying to help".



We made the original design based on several SCCA classes that limited the metal content of replacement drivetrain mounts. When they changed the wording on the rule in 2012 we immediately redesigned these to have a longer aluminum "snout" and a shorter stud. This makes the new design stronger, but we cannot make them indestructible.



We've installed these on dozens of cars and never had an issue, including my at least 6 own race and street cars. Have never had a failure on track or street use in tens of thousands of miles I've personally put on these parts. But in one case a new tech here didn't loosen the nuts on the motor mount studs during a clutch swap. Guess what happened? He broke a stud. That's because the long drivetrain was being hung from two studs. I made him replace both - on his time - to fix the issue he created.



Those of you that have a set ordered we are making a batch of these today and the blanks just started going into our CNC lathe. We should have a bunch ready for anodize in a couple of days.

Cheers,

[DocWyte]

Thanks for chiming in Terry. Please know that I reached out to you privately that night before I posted anything. I have no intention of getting into a pissing match with you, I like you and respect you. However, I was pretty upset that I had to miss a track day from a failure that I view as unacceptable.

I don't remember who I talked to on the phone, I'm sure he's a really nice guy and good at what he does. That said, I didn't get a whole lotta warm feelings from him. Yes, he offered me a stud, which is *great* but I didn't know if I needed it. Unfortunately I was jammed up time wise and by the time I could pull the mount out to see if I had the upgraded design and a new stud would fix it, it wouldn't matter as I wouldn't have the time to get it and install it.

He also couldn't give me any idea of when you guys would be tooling up a batch of the updated parts and frankly, he didn't really go out of his way (at all) to try and find out an answer for me. To be clear, I was nothing but polite on the phone.

While this is a used car, its been in my area for the last 6+ years and I've known all the owners. To my knowledge (meaning, yes, there is a chance here) it hasn't had a clutch done in at least the last 6 years.

I've had lots of cars. I've built lots of cars. I've broken *lots* of stuff! However, I've never had motor mount nuts come loose, let alone a motor mount stud break. It also sucks that this failure took out a bunch of parts that I'd literally just replaced.

I'm glad you were able to upgrade your design. I should be pulling these out of my car this Thursday/Friday. If its the your updated design that had a stud break, maybe a re-examination/redesign of the part is in order.

[HDawg 440]

First of all nobody likes to have parts break and miss track days, sorry to see that. But lets get the facts straight since you decided to post about your issue all over the internets and blame our parts.

From the one and only phone call you have had with us here at Vorshlag, this is what we know: 1) you bought a used car with these mounts previously installed. 2) You haven't been able to determine when they were installed, or how old they are. 3) We don't know if they are our "new" (2012) design or not. So nobody knows how old these parts are nor what they have been subjected to before you bought the car.

Also, just so nobody is confused: these are motorsports parts not made for grandma to drive to church with.

The number one issue we see with the handful of people that broke our motor mounts was that at sometime (usually) right before they broke a stud they had done a clutch or trans repair. And if you hang the transmission off the motor mounts only on a solid or "near-solid" motor mount like this, something is gonna give. The top nuts on the mounts must to be loosened or removed during trans service so that the whole engine + trans is not torquing on two studs. If you ignore this, you will break solid mounts. Jon here at Vorshlag offered to send you new studs last week, if you could tell us if these were the new or old design. That's not "deflection", that's "trying to help".

We made the original design based on several SCCA classes that limited the metal content of replacement drivetrain mounts. When they changed the wording on the rule in 2012 we immediately redesigned these to have a longer aluminum "snout" and a shorter stud. This makes the new design stronger, but we cannot make them indestructible.

We've installed these on dozens of cars and never had an issue, including my at least 6 own race and street cars. Have never had a failure on track or street use in tens of thousands of miles I've personally put on these parts. But in one case a new tech here didn't loosen the nuts on the motor mount studs during a clutch swap. Guess what happened? He broke a stud. That's because the long drivetrain was being hung from two studs. I made him replace both - on his time - to fix the issue he created.

In my experience, the "old" design was clearly deficient. I understand the design constraint you were under but I still think it wasn't robust. I broke one with what appeared to be fatigue, definitely unrelated to a clutch job, but instead related to very rough roads and track surfaces and possibly deformation of the urethane. The new design does appear to be better but it really doesn't look like an engineered vibration isolator / machine mount. Practically every sound design of a vibration isolating equipment mount has no metal connection directly from the rotating machine (engine/trans/fan/pump) to its mounting surface (ground/frame/car body).

https://www.lord.com/products-and-so...rial/isolators

I know you guys have sold tons of these things with success. And when I talked to you guys years ago when I had a failure you knew of no failures like mine. But I also didn't find it to be a satisfactory design. So I changed the product I'm using.

No hard feelings but I think the community deserves to hear these things aren't as care-free as some other products.


Chris