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Thread: Augmenting the dual fuel-pump setup

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    Augmenting the dual fuel-pump setup

    Like others here, I tried the dual fuel pump setup in my E36 -and it did certainly help, but did not really resolve the problem. I have data showing a loss of fuel pressure, with approximately 3 gallons left in the tank, on very long right hand high-G turns.

    To me, the problem is that there's a bowl for fuel in the passenger side, but nothing holding fuel near the pump on the driver's side.

    I decided to try yet another method - an in-tank surge tank with trap doors: https://www.amazon.com/Fuel-Safe-ST1.../dp/B00I87DNLA

    71cIIVTli-L._SL1500_.jpg

    This thing measures 5.25" across, which means it won't fit down the hole for the pump. My plan is to carve 1" out of two sides, then piece it back together with aluminum and rivets - finishing it off with some fuel tank sealant. I'll then carve the holy be-jesus out of it to fit the pump and stock housing on there and slam it all into the driver's side tank.

    The part will be here today- I need to finish this before the SCCA Majors at High Plains in two weeks. I'll keep you guys posted... but I'm changing jobs and gone hiking this weekend, so be patient if you're interested.
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    I am sick and tired of the saddle tank fuel starve on right hand turns in E36 and E46 cars.



    Just came back from a NASA event at COTA and T16-17-18 is a looooong right hander that will drain a saddle tank and fuel starve at anything near half a tank.



    Our crew is working on a dual fuel pump setup (lots commercially available but we will see if we can improve on it at all) and I will test that and see if it improves.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    Like others here, I tried the dual fuel pump setup in my E36 -and it did certainly help, but did not really resolve the problem. I have data showing a loss of fuel pressure, with approximately 3 gallons left in the tank, on very long right hand high-G turns.

    To me, the problem is that there's a bowl for fuel in the passenger side, but nothing holding fuel near the pump on the driver's side.

    I decided to try yet another method - an in-tank surge tank with trap doors: https://www.amazon.com/Fuel-Safe-ST1.../dp/B00I87DNLA

    71cIIVTli-L._SL1500_.jpg

    This thing measures 5.25" across, which means it won't fit down the hole for the pump. My plan is to carve 1" out of two sides, then piece it back together with aluminum and rivets - finishing it off with some fuel tank sealant. I'll then carve the holy be-jesus out of it to fit the pump and stock housing on there and slam it all into the driver's side tank.

    The part will be here today- I need to finish this before the SCCA Majors at High Plains in two weeks. I'll keep you guys posted... but I'm changing jobs and gone hiking this weekend, so be patient if you're interested.
    I like where your heads at but that sure seems like a lot of cutting and hacking to put that sump inside the stock tank?



    We're adding this fuel surge tank remotely to a customer's E36. Using the stock pump to feed this tank, then dual submerged Walbro 255lph pumps inside this tank to feed the filter (shown mounted to the plate) and then from there to the regulator/engine.



    Remote surge tanks would preclude the need to hack anything on your tank or fiddle with mounting anything inside it. The return line will dump right back into the surge tank to help keep it full. With this amount of reserve the stock saddle tank can slosh and suck air occasionally and still not starve the engine. We've done this trick on a number of endurance race cars, and the Pikes Peak car above (even with a fuel cell) and it extends your fuel load down to the last quart.

    Just costs more money... :/
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    I like your solution - in actuality someone could make a new hangar for both sides, that has those surge tanks built in and all the work done.

    My solution is $106... I bet adding two more pumps and that surge tank is more like a grand.... and to be fair about it, yours definitely looks nicer and probably resolves the problem, where mine is just an experiment.

    That said, if this doesn't work, I'll do something like that... or find a machinist that can make what I'm talking about.

    RallyRoad started to do but, but doesn't include the surge part. https://rallyroad.net/collections/fu...fuelpumphanger
    Last edited by CoMZ302; 06-14-2017 at 11:09 AM.
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    Bluntly, because I'm just an HPDE/instructor kinda of guy, I'm looking for a cheap(ish) fix.

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    I like where your head is at, but that seems like a lot of modifications to an otherwise very safe stock fuel tank. Don't know if I would be hacking it and sealing it. From a rollover fuel spill perspective.

    I think the ticket is a surge tank with a stock fuel tank. Feed the surge tank and the surge tank feeds the motor.

    Option two is fuel cell with that contraption inside.

    Either way, it is big money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    Like others here, I tried the dual fuel pump setup in my E36 -and it did certainly help, but did not really resolve the problem. I have data showing a loss of fuel pressure, with approximately 3 gallons left in the tank, on very long right hand high-G turns.

    To me, the problem is that there's a bowl for fuel in the passenger side, but nothing holding fuel near the pump on the driver's side.

    I decided to try yet another method - an in-tank surge tank with trap doors: https://www.amazon.com/Fuel-Safe-ST1.../dp/B00I87DNLA

    71cIIVTli-L._SL1500_.jpg

    This thing measures 5.25" across, which means it won't fit down the hole for the pump. My plan is to carve 1" out of two sides, then piece it back together with aluminum and rivets - finishing it off with some fuel tank sealant. I'll then carve the holy be-jesus out of it to fit the pump and stock housing on there and slam it all into the driver's side tank.

    The part will be here today- I need to finish this before the SCCA Majors at High Plains in two weeks. I'll keep you guys posted... but I'm changing jobs and gone hiking this weekend, so be patient if you're interested.
    99 M3 STU/ GTS3 Project

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotoriousJJE View Post
    I like where your head is at, but that seems like a lot of modifications to an otherwise very safe stock fuel tank. Don't know if I would be hacking it and sealing it. From a rollover fuel spill perspective.
    Oh no, that thing will be fitted *inside* the stock fuel tank. No I wouldn't dare have this open thing leaking all over the cockpit!

    No difference in rollover safety - same two closed screw ports on the top of the tank for the fuel pumps, nothing else.

    Whew!
    2002 BMW M Roaster.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoMZ302 View Post
    Oh no, that thing will be fitted *inside* the stock fuel tank. No I wouldn't dare have this open thing leaking all over the cockpit!

    No difference in rollover safety - same two closed screw ports on the top of the tank for the fuel pumps, nothing else.

    Whew!
    Gotcha! I understood you were going to cut the stock opening to fit that inside! Sorry, I guess I should try reading comprehension
    99 M3 STU/ GTS3 Project

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    Yea, I'm also trying to visualize how he's gonna build this "ship in a bottle" - get that big box inside the little fuel pump access hole. Cut it in half and reassemble inside the OEM fuel tank?

    Whatever you do, take pictures and share.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fair View Post
    Yea, I'm also trying to visualize how he's gonna build this "ship in a bottle" - get that big box inside the little fuel pump access hole. Cut it in half and reassemble inside the OEM fuel tank?

    Whatever you do, take pictures and share.
    All I've done at this point is measure the stock part (4.25" opening in the tank) and the new thing (5.25" square).

    It ain't gonna be pretty, that's for certain!

    Yes I'll take pix.
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    https://store.034motorsport.com/full...fuel-pump.html

    I like this solution, you can get an AEM 380 pump for 120ish, then just make some lines.

    I built a custom one for my current car, but I've used the above one in an lsx track car.
    Back into a BMW, this time a track rat....and it won't be BMW powered and no, not a V8 either!
    Couldn't help myself, boosted e36 m52 street car in progress also!

  11. #11
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    Nice. Great solution

    Would you need a fuel pressure regulator or would you go straight to the fuel rail?

    Quote Originally Posted by exvitermini2 View Post
    https://store.034motorsport.com/full...fuel-pump.html

    I like this solution, you can get an AEM 380 pump for 120ish, then just make some lines.

    I built a custom one for my current car, but I've used the above one in an lsx track car.
    99 M3 STU/ GTS3 Project

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    Terry - for many (most?) race classes any surge tank type work would need to have an FIA certification as I understand it. Does the set up you showed have that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooptie64 View Post
    Terry - for many (most?) race classes any surge tank type work would need to have an FIA certification as I understand it. Does the set up you showed have that?
    I can't find anything in the scca rulebook about fuel lines having to be FIA anything. They just have to be steel braided if they go thru the cockpit. Which rule are you referring to?
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    Anyone tried a holly hydromat?

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    I am truly a remarkable dumbass. Apparently my high school geometry class only lasted about 30 years. The hole is round 4.25 inch the box is square 5.25. It's way more than an inch to cut out. I'm still going to hack and slash buy have far less hope.



    Quote Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
    Anyone tried a holly hydromat?
    Guess that's next.
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    Hmm, I know every car is different but I basically can almost run my car out of fuel before it starves out. This is with the Bimmerworld dual fuel pump kit and running at High Plains.
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    I think you're right - I also think it's a factor of very long right hand turns at high G's (like turn 1 at pueblo, over 1.5Gs for many seconds) and trying to get the car as light as possible.

    I'll get it sorted - I had another idea this morning that I would just cut this box really small so it just fits over the stock filter under the pump and the doors still work - and as tall as I can make it.

    Off to the mountains.
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    I can get a 1/4 tank out of my LS m3 before fuel cut... I'm just gunna go to a fuel cell lol fuck the stock tank.

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    Don't overcomplicate this people ... if you want to run till talk is dry, just get a 4L aluminum box and weld on 5 -6AN fittings ... 4 in the top, one in the bottom. 2 stock pumps in the stock tank feed the surge tank, one returns to the stock tank, feed from the bottom to a Bosch 042 fuel pump, and a return form the engine back to the surge tank. With this setup, if the car starts starving on a lap, it won't make it back to the pits ... absolutely no issues with fuel, ever ... know your burn rate! The pump is $160, and the surge tank is like $50 ... a few AN bungs, and you can probably do the whole thing with hoses for under 300, and never, ever think about it again.
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    I went through a similar issue and frustration of dual pump setup couple years ago myself. Did bunch of research including the hydromat and little round fuel pickup, ect. The hydromat at the time was not sold by many and whoever sold it had a ridiculous price that was comparable to some surge tanks systems.

    So I went ahead and built my own surege tank for fruction of a cost of some of the readily available ones. The results are excellent and I can dry my tank past the reserve, almost down to the fumes

    The link to my build is in my sig, and attaching it here too. You can see my iteration of home brew dual setup and then eventually building and switching to a surge tank.
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ad.php?1964025
    Last edited by bimerok; 06-17-2017 at 07:59 AM.
    - 96 328is 6.0L. (LS1 to LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...ad.php?2098938)
    - 96 328is 5.7L. (LS1 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1289987)
    - 95 ///M3 6.0L. (LS2 build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1619249)

    - 97 ///M3. (e46 Fender Flares/track car build thread: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1727098)
    - 96 328is (Dual Fuel Pump to Surge Tank thread: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ad.php?1964025)

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    ATL-ST540-swirl-pot-w-base.jpg

    http://www.atlltd.com/atl-new-produc...s-manager.html

    ATL FIA rated crash resistant swirl pot was my solution. Like everyone else running various forms of the swirl pot, problem solved.
    Last edited by Maynor; 06-18-2017 at 07:44 PM.
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    Where did you mount the swirl pot?

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    I'm not familiar with SCCA (I race NASA). In NASA, fuel cells are required to be FIA certified and have a whole list of requirements. I'm guessing (I have not discussed this with our tech inspector) a swirl pot would be considered in the same light as a fuel cell as they serve essentially the same purpose (holding a quantity of fuel).

    Braided lines for the fuel lines absolutely makes sense, but the system that was pictured had a tank which I wouldn't think is considered a "fuel line".

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    Quote Originally Posted by hooptie64 View Post
    Terry - for many (most?) race classes any surge tank type work would need to have an FIA certification as I understand it. Does the set up you showed have that?
    I've never heard of a surge tank needing or even avilable with an FIA cert... until John posted this below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynor View Post
    ATL-ST540-swirl-pot-w-base.jpg

    http://www.atlltd.com/atl-new-produc...s-manager.html

    ATL FIA rated crash resistant swirl pot was my solution. Like everyone else running various forms of the swirl pot, problem solved.
    That's pretty slick. I like ATL products, hadn't seen that. Its hard to tell but is that plastic? It looks cast or molded with a parting line. If plastic I can see why they'd want to FIA rate it.



    The Radium Engineering (above) and Integrated Engineering (below) surge tanks we have used in the past were apparently not FIA rated, but both were built like a brick sh1t house. When properly installed with braided fuel lines we've never had a tech inspector give them a second look.



    Now I could be wrong - it might be best to ask a NASA or SCCA Tech Inspector or CCR guru about FIA certs on surge tanks.
    Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports

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