"Why can't I just weld it?" A Pictorial Essay...

[Randy Forbes]

I know owners plagued by this problem ask themselves that question, and the following pictures do not lie, so you can decide for your own self if just re welding was a fix or a fail.

Oh sure, corners were cut on this car, and there is evidence of questionable (!) work practices, but the principle element stands, and it's that only the symptoms were treated, and the root cause was not addressed.

Rest assured, somewhere in this car's past, a seller said something to the effect of: "yes, the subframe has been fixed and reinforced." While technically not a lie, it was not near enough to the truth that any buyer would expect.

Buyer beware!

Don't take the word of the person selling the car without photo documentation and/or a third-party inspection if you cannot inspect it yourself. An honest seller will understand, and you'll weed out the less scrupulous ones! Even our esteemed Jon Martin has contacted me to verify listings he was given on his website after claims were made "crediting" me for work that I didn't do, nor provide a reinforcement package for.

We have a pretty tight enthusiast community and I'd have a hard time believing that anyone here would knowingly try to pass off a bad car/bad repair onto a buyer, but there are are people out there that will and have done it.

But I digress...

Has the trunk been repainted in a dark color, hiding details? Red flag!





Fractured spotwelds were rewelded__and then some!
This is sure going to complicate my repairs, along with costing the car's owner more money.



Keep in mind, these are all BEFORE pictures!



Separation spans full width from LH to RH longitudinal rails.







But WAIT, there's MORE!



I have no idea why, but the hack-repairs were extended to the (OE) exhaust system too!









I can only imagine that scrap of metal was the best that could be found in the alley behind the hack's house











Not for the faint of heart, but if you want to periodically monitor the progress on this particular project: http://spcarsplus.com/gallery3/index.php/WKR

[Mr Bingley]

Every now and then we get threads or posts from new owners who are resistant to your kit and want to make their own, or just want to reinforce the bad welds with plug welds or fasteners. I am constantly amazed by these, and feel frustrated that they can't be helped due to some odd mental health quirk or just plain failure to do the research that is so readily available. It is sad and maddening that our cars have this potentially fatal flaw, but they do. Thank God (or you or both) that there is such an elegant and well engineered solution. This one looks pretty far gone--that's a lot of metal fatigue--you have to replace the entire trunk floor at this point. How lucky was I that when my first welds popped you still lived just a couple of hours away.

[Terry F.]

This is a fun thread Randy, thanks. Save another one.

Tapatalk w/ S7 Edge. As such, as much as I would like to, I can't vote in your poll.

[kornfeld]

I thank Randy for such an elegant and well engineered solution.....he researched it, developed it, and is supplying it. He deserves the credit.

[wbmech767]

Randy just curious if you have seen any damage on the 1996 cars with the battery in the front (did cutting the floor for the battery make it weaker)

[rf900rkw]

It has nothing to do with the battery box, either M or Z3. The root failure is a long ways away from the battery, or any visible spot that is normally checked and patched. Patch jobs like this, and many of the home engineered "solutions" are like patching cracked plaster walls without first fixing the sinking foundation. Reinforcing only around the diff mount will not correct or avoid the problem. This is why the factory's later attempts at stitch welding did nothing.



I find it shocking that someone could drive the car to this point of destruction. Hopefully this isn't a forum member's car.

[328 Power 04]

You are a better surgeon than any of us here.
Most would have let it die.

[Tim95M3]

Oh my god... I just cant imagine the amount of neglect and abuse done to the car to get to this point... I beat the piss out of my car and barely have a couple popped welds... I need to get your kit in there before it starts looking like this. lol

[Z-Thrizzle]

....





... http://spcarsplus.com/gallery3/index.php/WKR

I see that the original mount indents where the bolt goes through allowing more space between the mount and bushing Is this to allow the differential to flex in a twisting motion? I've been curious about the movement underneath but haven't gotten around to mounting the gopro there yet.

[TiminMb]

I'd say both the OE mount itself and the cross member were designed inadequately, since they both crack in time. I can't believe the crazy cantilever design of the rear most mount, with its sharp 90 degree bend at the cross member. Looks like a stress point that frequently cracks. Randy's through the cross member design places the stress entirely in tension, which is the way steel is the strongest. I see the hack repair above attempts to improve on the design, but as pointed out above, clearance is potentially an issue.

coupe_floor3 edited.jpg

[ZGator]

No offense but wouldn't the owner just be better off buying another Z3? Unless it's an M Coupe does not seem worth it..

[JonM]

Can I have that spool of thread that was being used as a spacer? :-)

[BMWBergy]

That car looks like a write-off. How on earth is that a 110,xxx mile car?

[Randy Forbes]

That car looks like a write-off. How on earth is that a 110,xxx mile car?

One of the worst condition cars__overall__that I worked on only had 10,000-some miles on it (owner purchased it w/8800 miles at a St Martin Sheriff's auction, after it had sat outside in an impound lot for around five years).

Mileage means little__imagine what one of Maddux' cars would look like at 100,000 miles (my money says it'd still be pristine ).

Jon, that's the reinforced thread I pilfered from Sue's sewing kit (hell, she wasn't going to use it...) that substitutes for that ridiculous clip that secures the zipper on the soft top's back windows. It's still in play here

A dozen or so years ago, besides the motivation that stemmed from owning a pair of these cars, was that I set out to save them, so yes Terry, here's another one saved from the scrap heap (take that, ZGator ).

I've yet to lift the hood on a Z3 with the battery under it, and except for changing out the late FredR's fr LCAs, I've yet to work on any 4-cyl version. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Ralph, if your current profession doesn't pan out () you could always become a wordsmith; you come up with the most home-hitting quips (frequently aligned with my much less eloquent thoughts). And really, you wouldn't have sent me your car? Hard to believe...

In another week or so, depending, this car will back its way out of my shop with all these former sins absolved, and go on to provide its owner pleasure only the way an M Rdstr can.

The top-down driving experience will continue long after the cost has been forgotten!

The next car I do the reinforcement on__and you know who you are__will be the One Hundredth (100th) car that I'll have personally done (this yellow one is #99) and I think that is a pretty big deal! Sue tells me (!) I'm not ready to retire yet, but I may well slow down to keep the pace a little more manageable, and the sight of a half-dozen cars in the driveway will remain a scene from the past. I'll still be stamping out the kits, but I'd encourage you all to start taking a closer look at the welders/fitters you have locally if you're thinking this is a repair/reinforcement you want done to your own cars.

Back in the summer of 2004, I could've stopped after having fabricated the two (2) prototypes that went into my own cars. But collectively, you all pushed me to provide more (especially Mark Hanson, wherever you are) and I cannot thank you enough!

It's been a good run

[01silber]

One of the worst condition cars__overall__that I worked on only had 10,000-some miles on it (owner purchased it w/8800 miles at a St Martin Sheriff's auction, after it had sat outside in an impound lot for around five years).

Mileage means little__imagine what one of Maddux' cars would look like at 100,000 miles (my money says it'd still be pristine ).

Jon, that's the reinforced thread I pilfered from Sue's sewing kit (hell, she wasn't going to use it...) that substitutes for that ridiculous clip that secures the zipper on the soft top's back windows. It's still in play here

A dozen or so years ago, besides the motivation that stemmed from owning a pair of these cars, was that I set out to save them, so yes Terry, here's another one saved from the scrap heap (take that, ZGator ).

I've yet to lift the hood on a Z3 with the battery under it, and except for changing out the late FredR's fr LCAs, I've yet to work on any 4-cyl version. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Ralph, if your current profession doesn't pan out () you could always become a wordsmith; you come up with the most home-hitting quips (frequently aligned with my much less eloquent thoughts). And really, you wouldn't have sent me your car? Hard to believe...

In another week or so, depending, this car will back its way out of my shop with all these former sins absolved, and go on to provide its owner pleasure only the way an M Rdstr can.

The top-down driving experience will continue long after the cost has been forgotten!

The next car I do the reinforcement on__and you know who you are__will be the One Hundredth (100th) car that I'll have personally done (this yellow one is #99) and I think that is a pretty big deal! Sue tells me (!) I'm not ready to retire yet, but I may well slow down to keep the pace a little more manageable, and the sight of a half-dozen cars in the driveway will remain a scene from the past. I'll still be stamping out the kits, but I'd encourage you all to start taking a closer look at the welders/fitters you have locally if you're thinking this is a repair/reinforcement you want done to your own cars.

Back in the summer of 2004, I could've stopped after having fabricated the two (2) prototypes that went into my own cars. But collectively, you all pushed me to provide more (especially Mark Hanson, wherever you are) and I cannot thank you enough!

It's been a good run

Only a select few can claim that Sue got her welding start on their Z

[CoMZ302]

Love it. Your kit is on my list - don't stop selling them yet! I wish you were close; I'd bring it over.

[khammack]

Love it. Your kit is on my list - don't stop selling them yet! I wish you were close; I'd bring it over.

I had Randy's kit installed on my M Roadster at a shop in Englewood, Colorado. PM me if you would like the name of the shop. There are a couple of other shop up in your part of town I would consider too, but I only have direct experience with this one shop.

Randy was EXTREMELY helpful during the entire process!

[ProductUser]

I had Randy's kit installed on my M Roadster at a shop in Englewood, Colorado. PM me if you would like the name of the shop. There are a couple of other shop up in your part of town I would consider too, but I only have direct experience with this one shop.

Randy was EXTREMELY helpful during the entire process!

Randy helped me several times with my subframe reinforcement project, too!

Here's my adventure
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...s-Subframe-Kit

[328 Power 04]

My kit is still on a shelving in storage somewhere. Can wait to use it though...

[BMWBergy]

Mileage means little__imagine what one of Maddux' cars would look like at 100,000 miles (my money says it'd still be pristine ).

My statement had two potential meanings:
1) In that kind of condition, I'd guess it had 3x as many miles, or
b) I'm surprised that it made it to 11x,xxx miles.

[Mr Bingley]

Ralph, if your current profession doesn't pan out () you could always become a wordsmith; you come up with the most home-hitting quips (frequently aligned with my much less eloquent thoughts). And really, you wouldn't have sent me your car? Hard to believe...

If I knew then what I know now, I would have shipped it to you regardless of how far, but how was I to know? For the benefit of others who don't know, Randy is not just the inventor, engineer and seller of his famous subframe reinforcement kit, but he is an artist, and performs a level and quality of workmanship in its installation that simply cannot be paralleled. To have him work on your car is a privilege--he does a better and more conscientious job than you would do yourself even if you had the ability, time, facility, tools and knowledge. Anyone who has had their car done by him knows exactly what I am talking about. I take this thread as a warning that he is slowing down and will stop taking cars altogether before too long. If anyone reading this has been on the fence about whether or when to install a kit into their car, the time is now. And don't hesitate to have it shipped to Tampa--you will be very glad you did. Having a Forbes reinforcement kit installed is one of the few mods that actually increases your car's value dollar for dollar for what you spend. Having it installed by Randy himself makes your car 1 of about 100 cars out there--of the approximately 300,000 Z3's produced--I'm guessing that will cover the cost of shipping.

[khammack]

If I knew then what I know now, I would have shipped it to you regardless of how far, but how was I to know? For the benefit of others who don't know, Randy is not just the inventor, engineer and seller of his famous subframe reinforcement kit, but he is an artist, and performs a level and quality of workmanship in its installation that simply cannot be paralleled. To have him work on your car is a privilege--he does a better and more conscientious job than you would do yourself even if you had the ability, time, facility, tools and knowledge. Anyone who has had their car done by him knows exactly what I am talking about. I take this thread as a warning that he is slowing down and will stop taking cars altogether before too long. If anyone reading this has been on the fence about whether or when to install a kit into their car, the time is now. And don't hesitate to have it shipped to Tampa--you will be very glad you did. Having a Forbes reinforcement kit installed is one of the few mods that actually increases your car's value dollar for dollar for what you spend. Having it installed by Randy himself makes your car 1 of about 100 cars out there--of the approximately 300,000 Z3's produced--I'm guessing that will cover the cost of shipping.

Well said!

[TiminMb]

That car needs a trunk transplant from a car with a front end collision. What a rusty mess.

[Avus95]

My new to me Coupe has your kit Randy, along with dual ear diff mount. It was done by you years ago. I can say your work is top notch. I inspected it while swapping out the 3.46 diff that needed a rebuild. Much better work than the friend who helped me out with doing a reinforcement on my old car 10 years ago! Keep up the good work sir.

[Vinci]

One of the worst condition cars__overall__that I worked on only had 10,000-some miles on it (owner purchased it w/8800 miles at a St Martin Sheriff's auction, after it had sat outside in an impound lot for around five years).

The estoril coupe from a year or two ago? That one was rough...

Only a select few can claim that Sue got her welding start on their Z

I hardly ever check the forum anymore and suddenly Max is back..