Manual E39 Touring / Totaled after 6 weeks / What was it worth?

[KCVRad]

So...

I was looking for a manual wagon for a while, find the E39 Touring, fall in love, and finally find one near me after a long search - an 02 525iT with three pedals where the guy selling it is a BMW mechanic that bought it for himself, fixed it, and then decided to sell it. I couldn't have been happier with the car - but about six weeks after I bought it I got a bad feeling one afternoon... I'm in Denver and Spring is T-Storm season. Early May, on a Monday afternoon, a big thunderstorm rolls over that afternoon and drops a few hundred golf ball (or bigger) sized hailstones on the car.

I'll pause at this point for some commentary:

1.) For most of you that aren't in Denver... this was a big storm. There's a shopping mall maybe 1,500 yards from where the car was that was damaged so bad it's going to be closed for another six months.

2.) I did get a bad feeling before it happened, and shame on me for not doing more, but I did get it parked under a tree (the is no garage within 20 miles of where I was and my work wouldn't have let me sit under the canopy at the gas station for hours...). (No insurance company or anyone else should construe this statement to mean that I could actually predict that any hail storm was coming - the concept is here for embellishment.)

3.) Just for some additional context, this is my second BMW and my last one was an E36 328is that got totaled by hail damage in the Rockies eight years ago. (I made it through the in-between years in an automatic, four cylinder, Subie wagon that was practical but seemed to take a piece of my soul each day. I'm done with that chapter of my life.)

Back to the situation... The insurance company has some guys take a look at it and they provide an estimate to fix it that's typically high and it missed a lot of things (including a big crack in the front windshield that wasn't written up, plus probably 10 other things). And they have the book values on the car at run-of-the-mill E39 i6 levels, and so the car is with their total loss group. I can see the possibility of a total (which sucks), but not at a valuation less than $5k.

So I sit here today shaking my head and I wanted to ask you all - if you'd be so kind - to let me know what you think the car WAS worth before the storm. I know it's subjective, and I know your'not even seeing the car - but if you saw a car like what I describe, what do you think it would be worth? Please no public comments on the car the way it is now (happy to take a PM) - I'm only working on pre-incident value.

Here's the car:
- 2002 525i Touring; 145,600 miles
- Non-Sport suspension, but with Koni Sport Dampers on the car ($700 parts, $600 labor in 2017)
- Oxford Green/Chrome Trim - full paint correction and ceramic coating on the out side of the car ($1600 in Q3 2016)
- The paint looked really good and the car was great to wash with the coating - recommended)
- 18" staggered MPARS, painted white, with brand new Nitto NT555 tires (late Feb 2017 tire purchase, $800.)
- FWIW - I thought the white wheels and tint would be a too much for me, but I'm surprised at how much I like them.
- Gray/Black interior with burled walnut trim. Everything is in great shape except for a couple cracks on the wood trim (CD player cover, center console ashtray), and a little bit of wear on the center, front-to-back runners on the leather seats (front to back where you sit), but the rest is perfect.
- I've had an appraiser take a recent look at it and he said he "can't believe how good of condition it's in for the mileage".
- PO (again, certified mechanic) gave me a statement saying that he'd done a lot of work to the car in 2016 and 2017 including the following: Brakes - 4 Wheels, Pads/Rotors/Sensors, Instrument Cluster, Thrust Arms, Shift boot/knob/E-brake cover, Steering Wheel, Headlight Lenses, LED Halo Bulbs, Steering Hoses and Reservoir, Oil Filter Housing Gasket Assembly, Valve Cover Gasket Set, Center Console Euro, Upper/Lower Rad Hose, Water Pump, Coolant Change, Belts Main Drive/AC, Spark Plugs, Cabin/Engine Air Filters, Windshield Wipers, Interior Lights - Again FWIW, I get a list price of $7,000 for the parts. Certainly debatable on cost, but list price is some level of standard.
The insurance company wants to comp me on a couple of average 2002-2003 525i Sedans (that they seem to have been too low on the pricing of at least one, based on calls I've made) with similar mileage and said "they may be able to give me a couple hundred dollars for the tires". Do you thing that's right? Any thoughts about what you think somebody would have paid for the car before the storm?

I'll try to get a few other pics up soon. Just dont have any inside and the outside isn't worth spending a lot of time on.

Thanks all. I know you spend a lot of time and effort on these cars and the forum here. Hope I can get the car straight and add at least a little value by participating here in the future.

- KC

[Chisum]

Looks like my car which started out as an 02 525it/5 speed.

touring 2013.jpg

Chisum

[Rossagge]

Yes it is subjective , but subjective to the insurance company not a private buyer. Most insurance companies dont really care what mechanical moddifications you've done to your vehicle. They, like you mentioned, will get comps on several vehicles similar to your make and model and shop that maybe by calling dealers to see what they would buy one for. Which is always low because they will only buy for wholesale or trade in value. They will also use NADA or Blackbook values. Not to say you will or won't get a bit extra, depends on your insurance company, but most reputable/major companies will give you money for things like wheels and tires and possibly other add ons if they were purchased recently. Normally within one year or less. I'm no insurance guy, maybe someone on here is and can give you a better low down. I'm basing this off my recent insurance claim with a top rated company and my previous experience in the car business. It's a 3-4k'ish car plus what they decided to give you for add ons. Can't put a hard number on it. Hopefully and most likely they won't give you wholesale value.

I know you're asking what someone would pay for it prior to damage with all that work done to it, but in this case it's irrelevant. Insurance companies are looking at your car as a 2002 BMW 525iT 5spd i6 with 145+K...That's pretty much it.

BTW, sorry to hear that about your Touring. Looks nice in the pics. All the best!

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[rjjablo]

I have a 525it with Automatic similiar mileage etc. Bought for 2K and I got sideswiped by a guy in an X5. He put a good solid crease down the two doors. Insurance totaled it with 4K worth of damage and wrote me a check for $3,500.

They are going to total yours. I would take the check and buy it back, fix the windshield and drive it.

[geargrinder]

Insurance companies are looking at your car as a 2002 BMW 525iT 5spd i6 with 145+K...

Yep although they likely also will be cheating due to lack of comps and just picking random auto 525 sedans as mentioned.

And here's the other thing - they'll be looking at - and all the books can only give - "reported" sales. And many if not most of the sales in nichely desirable cars like this will be private sales and very likely not reported. And to compound that, even in states where private sales have a reported price (mine doesnt) people will be BSing to save on sales tax. So whats left to feed book price for weird niche cars like this are a statistical minority of one off dealer used car sales and lowballed self reported private sales.

I've never been in the position but I've had a few friends in similar situation have luck with digging up and carefully documenting real / good proper recent private comps and cars currently being offered. Aka "ok if i want to buy this car again, these are the only 2-3 i can find and look at the price and then adjust for fact mine was nicer". Clearly the price giu just paid is one of those comps, although if you lied to DMV and said you got it for $200 to save on taxes then ya screwed that option. But scan for a "buy it now" listing or 3, and see if anybody here will write you a letter ref'ing a good proper recent comp including the VIN number. Thats at least worked for a few of my buds in this situation.

[msvphoto]

Sorry for your loss. It will be hard to determine value since it is so rare. Our last totaled car appraisal was quite good. I hope yours is too. Comps should at least be Tourings, even if automatic.

I don't know if it helps your search for a replacement, but I saw this one on CL this weekend while looking for a car for my son.

https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/6168428466.html

[KCVRad]

Thanks for the feedback (and some sympathy) everybody.

Agreed that insurance is looking at it the way they want to look at it, but that doesn't mean they're doing it right - they're really obligated to pay the actual value of the car.

I also agree that the good ones don't trade in "reportable" fashion, so hard to find good comps in the typical fashion. I like geargrinder's idea of finding some private comps that aren't reported, though I don't see any readily available on the classifieds section here and I don't see other good comps online - have some more homework there.

I can't see letting the car go since it's at great mechanical shape and it doesn't look that bad considering the situation. I'm hoping to keep it on the road for another 10 years or so.

[jp5Touring]

Copy the ads on eBay. Their are some expensive tourings on it right now.

I made copies of newsprint and internet ads back in early 2000's for Farmers Ins. when my Suburban was stolen.
I got like a grand more then their first offer. Then couple years later received a check for a hundred dollars or so from a class action suit for low ballin customers.

[Mike WW]

Odds are they're going to try to lowball you. I've heard of fair attempts, but they seem to be in the minority. Comps, comps, comps. The 5 speed makes it much more attractive to an enthusiast, but they'll try to ding you a few hundred for it. I'm sure it will be "excess" mileage, even though it's on the low side. To them it's just an old oddball turd, they want to deal with much later cars, say 2010+. Have any of the paintless dent guys had a look at it? I've heard they can sometimes work wonders, other times not. I've had several cars totaled now and the only one that wasn't a lowball was when my Dad died the accident and I was the executor. I forget the numbers but it was about 15% more than I expected, which made no difference since he owed more than that on it at the time of the accident. Grind on them, don't take the first offer, look for options on your own.

[KCVRad]

Copy the ads on eBay. Their are some expensive tourings on it right now.

You were right on that one. All automatics, but better pricing than the comps I've seen from insurer. I submitted a few of these today, plus dug up the year-old BaT listing for a manual touring: http://bringatrailer.com/listing/200...uring-5-speed/

Have any of the paintless dent guys had a look at it? I've heard they can sometimes work wonders, other times not.

Yep. Paintless was a good portion of the repair estimate. I think everything but the hood, cracked mirror/rear bumper, and C-pillar trim. They would probably replace the roof too except I don't think they can find one very easily. I didn't know insurance could do paintless as restoration to previous condition, but it's not worth arguing unless the value they're giving me comes up.

[no7fish]

One key point to remember: Prices people are asking for cars is not the same as what they might sell for. I went down this path and was immediately shut down. The "asking" market is not useful for a comp. Actual sold cars are, which they have data on and you would have a hard time getting.

An avenue I had mixed luck with was calling the comps they listed and clarifying whether that was a wholesale or "retail" sale. The insurance company didn't really acknowledge that I had sussed out the difference in the prices but it did shift the conversation a little. They will mark down an adjustment from these dealer cars to reach your estimated value based partly on the value of a good dealer detail (basically, they couldn't explain it any better than that, but the fact that dealer cars are clean, vacuumed, everything works, etc). The more you can portray yours as having that level of condition, the better you'll be there.

The biggest thing that has worked in my favor in my 2 instances of totaled E39's (I know, FML) was time. Don't accept their first offer and don't feel pressured to make a deal fast. In neither case did I need the rental, although they attempted to leverage that with "we will need your rental turned in today" even though I had 2 more days based on my coverage. In one case I had the car towed to a shop that was friendly enough to not continue charging me so when they said that fees would be racking up I told them I would handle that as well.

I'm not trying to imply you can really play hardball with them. They hold most of the cards and they ultimately dictate what they are willing to give you for your car. The only real leverage you have is a) the car is still yours, remember that they are basically offering to buy it from you as a settlement, b) their metrics work on stats, including how quickly they close a claim, so they gradually have an incentive to improve your deal, c) the car has a salvage value. All the variables come down to numbers: how much is the car worth to them as salvage, how quickly do they need to get rid of you and what's that worth to them, how little can they pay you, even their ability to justify the deal they gave you (ie. more money because of recent maintenance, etc). So everything to do with the details is purely for framing the conversation. If you can get them in the mood to make you a deal then you have a little better chance, but you have to make it appealing to them.

[KCVRad]

Finally got this thing settled and wanted to follow-up with results... Had to wait for the insurance check to clear.

Without numbers and names, I was able to make some significant progress but only by invoking the appraisal clause in my insurance policy. Regular negotiation didn't work, as the claims group I was dealing with didn't seem to pay attention to any information I gave them. I found a good appraiser in my area and had the car appraised before I officially demanded appraisal with my insurer so I would have an idea if the time and effort was worth it. That appraisal came in even a little higher than I expected (and much higher than the insurance offer). Game on.

Insurance company appraiser came in right at their best offer - not a surprise as they were probably directed to do that. Funny enough, their appraiser was a big national appraisal shop that puts out a lot of press about how thorough a job they do - and their initial appraisal's big value adder was based on the fact that they thought my 525iT was a "turbo" (I'm still NA, though a supercharger would be nice). I gave my appraiser some leeway to negotiate and he got to a price in the middle that worked.

If I have any thoughts or advice they would be:

- Consider a policy from Haggerty if you have anything that's not a mass market car in average to below average condition.
- Don't expect the insurance company to pay much attention to what you have to say, or to be factually correct. I assumed that this was because they're busy and not looking for accuracy on each claim, but I think a fair amount of it is that they don't care.
- If you have to disagree and go to appraisal, find a good appraiser. I called around to a number of places and settled on an independent guy that has been doing appraisal work for 40 years. He both liked the car and was able to shoot a lot of holes in the insurance company's appraisal - I think this made a huge difference.
- Expect the insurance company's appraiser to cut corners and lowball - after a lot of discussions with my appraiser, their guy basically didn't appraise the car in a way that would stand up in mediation or in front of a judge. And probably for a very low fee to the insurance company. I think most people would pick a similar mainstream "appraiser" that would do the same thing and both appraisals would be similar. Just remember that most/all of the mainstream appraisers make their money by working for the insurance companies so have a reason to keep prices low.

Glad this is done. Now need to figure out if I can allocate and of the settlement funds toward some mods. I think I'm going to leave the hail damage for a while or look at some limited paintless dent repair. My kids will just ruin the paint sliding across the car in the garage anyway...

Cheers.

[Rossagge]

Good to hear it worked out the way you wanted.

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[geargrinder]

Those are great tips. Very helpful.

Haggerty is great if you can get a policy. Had one on the SL. My agent made it seem like they won't write a policy for just any daily driver tho and you need to qualify for "collector" car with them somehow. Could be that's mass specific situation, our insurance industry is a semi corrupt oligopoly where the industry clearly writes the rules and colludes to suppress a free market, maybe haggerty can offer more policies elsewhere (or maybe my agent has conflicts of interest).

[member george]

insurance told me my 03' m tech is worth 4800. they also put my car into the "total loss" category. i got sideswiped (hit and run) and my rear quarter panel and front fender need to be replaced. damage at ~$4k. car is in perfect condition other than that so i am in the process of getting a third party appraisal. insurance companies aren't very knowledgeable when it comes to these cars, nor do they care to be. if you don't want your car totaled, i would see if your insurer would accept a third party appraisal, to see if they can get you below that 75% value threshold. good luck.