hello turbo guys!
i drive a supercharged e39 for about 3 years. i've spent a lot of money for my set-up because i thought it would be enough. well, as you all know i was wrong.
the motor is m54b30. ported head, +1mm oversized intake/exhaust supertech valves, schrick cams 264/248, 72mm throttle body, n54 ignition coils, s54 5bar fpr, 42lb injectors, snow water injection, 100 octane gasoline (europe).
i want to go FI, so the question is, what size turbo to select? what compression ratio?
goal is 600hp with a decent powerband and the ability for 700 in the future. i don't want to buy blindly a turbo and i don't have your knowledge.
Gen 2 duall ball bearing Precision 6266, Garrett GTW 3884, Borg Warner EFR 8374 on the higher price range, or sacrifice some spool and get either a journal bearing Precision 6266, or a Borg Warner S366.
Compression depends on 100 octane and meth doesn't need to be dropped much for your power goals. That being said, if you ever want to run lower octane pump gas and meth, you should drop to between 8.5:1 - 9.5:1.
You will also need larger injectors to hit your power goals
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yes i know about the injectors. even with 5bar fpr they won't be enough.
what about a/r ratio?
t3 or t4?
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Are you on stock internals
Do you think that the m54b30 pistons would handle 600whp ?
The reason I m asking is I have M50b30 (m54b30 rotating assembly ) with some mods too.etc
Right now with holset hx super 40/35 exh 12 , (similar to 6060) I m at nearly 400 whp at 13 psi with 95 octane
And I upgrading my holset aiming for 600whp too with 95+water meth
So I got a 67comp hx40 (similar to 6764 )with 14cm.exh (nearly 0.8 )
Will update you with the.results as soon as everything is settled
(Still not sure if the m54b30 pistons could.handle.such power , we ll.see )
Last edited by JOMARO; 06-08-2017 at 10:13 PM.
intergrated wastegate and bov worth the extra money?
You pay more for the externally gated housing. The problem with the factory waste gates is they are hard to keep boost under 20 psi, even with upgrade Turbo Smart actuators. Seeing that you want to make 600+whp you will need to run that much boost any way.
The EFR 8374 is the best turbo on the market in it's size if you plan to run more than 20 psi.
As for internals, with a b30, you might be at the limit with the stock rods at 600+whp, since you will probably be making the same torque.
Last edited by e30polak; 06-09-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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with stock rods you will probably want to taper in the boost with a controller, so maybe tapering from 15 lbs of boost at 3500 rpms to 20 at 6000 to keep the bottom end alive.
Those stock rods will last a day with an 8374 at those levels unless you keep the boost curve extremely conservative. That's if you can keep it from creeping.
Last edited by rajicase; 06-09-2017 at 02:23 PM.
Yes, the stock rods can handle up to 600WHP (probably more if the corresponding torque isn't astronomical), but you'll be dancing on the edge if you drive the car hard all of the time.
Is this still the case? I ask because the new Gen 2 Garrett GTX's look to be as good, if not slightly better, now.
Correct. Although the WHP isn't the rod killer...it's heavy-hitting torque that will bend those puppies.
From some of the latest graphs and figures, the new Gen 2 Garrett GTX3582R is equal to or slightly better than the EFR8374. At least from what I can tell...but it is probably gonna cost a bit more.
Again, the M54B30 is able to survive at 600+WHP, as long as you keep the torque under control, and taper into full boost. Just make sure you re-gap your rings for the added oomph and heat! The rings are probably the weakest link in the M54B30 when boosting.
^^^This!!! Well said.
^^^ Also this. No immediate full boosting, or you'll be picking up shrapnel for miles...running an electronic boost controller (ala EBoost2) will let you ramp up the boost across the rev range. Creep isn't so much of an issue with a good open housing and wastegate, or with the twin scroll Garrett Gen 2 GTX's. For some reason though, the externally gated, twin scroll EFR's seem to like to creep if under about 20 psi. If you run the internally gated EFR AND an additional wastegate on the manifold, then you should be fine.
"You don't win silver....you lose gold."
I'll believe it when I see it on an m/s5x.
Seems like even internally gated, with upgraded actuators and a second gate make it hard to keep under 20 psi. This goes for other applications to, as k20 guys have had the same issues with the EFR turbos.
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there's a big debate on the internet about pte6266 vs efr8374.
if iwg isn't so reliable and an extra wg is necessary, why not use only ewg from first place?
also the blow-by valve in efr will require draw through maf setup?
6266 will make the same or more power in BB version. But the EFR will blow it away in transit response. Those EFRs can't be beat in transit response.
But for street car, drag car, I'd go PTE for ease of install, size, no water, and being bad ass.
Buy a precision t shirt and hat. Its like owning a Harley. They suck sometimes, but it's bad ass.
Last edited by Butters Stoch; 06-10-2017 at 03:14 PM.
1996 332IS
Built 3.2
CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
Technique Tuning 80# tune.
1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM
EWG would have to be large and well positioned. With just a Turbosmart 45 on a twinscrsoll manifold and 1.05 8374, I could not control boost on an 3.2L. Even with a 5 psi spring, it would be at 23 psi by 6000 rpm and still climbing. Don't know where if would have stopped. I changed to a 9180 with IWG and EWG and can run 10 psi springs and get 10 psi boost.
On an open manifold, I could control the 1.05 EWG 8374. I could run an 11 psi spring and get 14 psi at 7200.
Last edited by pbonsalb; 06-10-2017 at 08:17 PM.
There is no way the PTE and the EFR are anywhere close to the same league unless you only compare peak airflow. PTE is nowhere close when looking at quality, reliability, or response.
The GTX gen 2 stuff is not impressive at all. Its same old Garrett. How many times can we eek out some performance with an updated compressor wheel without upgrading the parts that matter (turbine). The only one thats anything new is the GTX3584RS and its so expensive it makes it less appealing than the EFR they are trying to benchmark IMO.
The old debate.
Everyone has opinions, here's my honest opinion from personal experience.
There are a lot of different builds going on, track cars, drift cars, drag cars, street cars etc etc. Having personal experience with Garrett, precision, BW, etc.
If I was to build a drag car I'd go Precision hands down, for a road track car EFR. Drift car again EFR. Dyno queen/show car Precision no question. Street machine , highway monster Precision again.
Sadly Garrett seems to be just not in the mix. Although my ol 35r is still going strong on Deans car.
There are many reasons to go with either of the 2.
There are plenty of reasons not to by an EFR as well. Those turbos have a hard time controlling boost under 20#. So if your on pump gas and want to run low boost with the availability of tossing in some high octane for say 650-700whp the EFR will have a hard time running 10-15 # for your "street" setting. Well unless you not only ditch the IWG provided by BW, install a turbosmart IWG and have an external gate as well. Then the cost goes from the $2000 EFR + turbo smart IWG @ $200 + external for $300. There are plenty of reasons to not buy a precision as well. They aren't water cooled, the oil drains need to be done properly. As for reliability, in our I've built a few precision E36's. 3 of them, none have ever had a problem. All holding up w/o an issue. But I have seen an EFR bust a turbine wheel. Granted my precision compressor wheel is a little beaten up. No loss from it, could be water injection, or crappy air filter placement and originally wasn't running a pre filter. Those are real important when placing the filter by the missing fog lamp.
Precision isn't the single best nor is the EFR. It all depends on application. It would be like saying "X" tire is the best in every class. Not true. Different application for different use.
1996 332IS
Built 3.2
CES/Steed TS Precision 6466, spraying a "$π!℅" load of meth.
Technique Tuning 80# tune.
1/4 mile 10.84 @ 136.72
Your 1 and only stop for all your BMW performance needs
WWW.CESMOTORSPORT.COM
My EFR is twice the weight of my old GTX3582R. I'd like someone to try out the new 1000 hp 35RR
'97 M3, Estoril blue, 2 dr, euro 6-spd, EFR 9180 divided T4 .92 IWG, RK tuning, CP 8.5:1 pistons, Eagle rods, Schrick cams, L19 11 mm ARP studs, O-ringed block, Supertech stainless/inconel valves, Supertech springs & Ti retainers, ported head, S54 oil pump/pan, 80 lb. injectors, OBD1 intake manifold, Steedspeed twin scroll T4, 3.5" SS exhaust, eBoost2 EBC, HFS-4 W/M injection, AEM Failsafe, Zeitronix data logger, Racelogic TC, OpenOBC w. ethanol %, Ireland Eng. engine mounts, UUC black tranny mounts w. enforcers, UUC twin disc feramic, ARC-8's, MCS 2-ways, Z3 rack, Rallyroad strut bar, X brace, Eibach sway bars, Ground Control LCAB bushings, Bimmerworld RTAB's, Powerflex subframe bushings, 210 4-clutch LSD, Stoptech BBK, titainium shims, steel braided lines, brake cooling ducts.
to be honest i don't intend to run boost lower than 20psi. and i don't see the reason to do it.
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