Let's Talk About Valve Tick in My S52

[wcampbelliv]

I've been searching over the past few weeks to find a decent thread about valve tick in our cars but haven't found anything substantial yet in regards to the potential damage caused to valve stems by stuck lifters; I'm hoping some of you can help me out...again. I have a loud ticking coming from the engine (present from cold start and during hot engine) that increases frequency with engine revving. All signs point to stuck hydraulic lifters. My independent mechanic agreed. This isn't my car, but is the exact sound (and comments from the poster confirm the problem):


Before everyone comments - I've ruled out/tried the following to no avail.

• Added extra quart of 5w30 full synthetic oil over full
  
• Swapped out spark plugs to NGK's and torqued to spec
  
• Added oil detergent/additive
  
• Ran engine on highway at 3700 RPM for about 25 minutes (this raised the Oil temps to about 260 on my guage)
  
• Changed to heavier weight oil, full synthetic Motul 10w40, with new filter
  
• Added Liqui-moly anti friction additive

I recently bought a stock '00 S52 with just over 70K miles on the car. At the time of purchase I didn't hear anything remotely related to a clicking noise coming from the engine. It's possible I just missed it, but unlikely given how loud it is. The car wasn't daily driven so I'm guessing one or two of the lifters somehow lost pressure, dried out, or got clogged by something during my first few spirited drives.

Ideally, I'll be upgrading to Schrick cams in the future and will replace all the lifters, the Vanos seals, the valve seals, installing my M50 manifold, and getting the ECU tuned. I have enough experience to do all the jobs except the remap. However, until I get the time, funds, and tools to do the job right, I want to know what kind of damage a stuck lifter can do to a valve stem if I continue to drive the car. The last thing I want to have to do is pull the head in order to replace a valve that gets damaged from driving with the current stuck lifters hammering away at the top of my valve stem and causing catastrophic damage.

Does anyone have experience fixing this issue?
How long did you run the car for before addressing the problem?
When you got into the engine, what kind of effect did the stuck lifter have on the valve stem?

I would love to see some pictures of the valve stems on the effected engine with info about how long the car was run with the audible lifter tick.

Thanks in advance for the help and I'll keep updating along the way as I make progress.

[BimmerBreaker]

Vanos

[ECSTuning]

^ agreed. Typically a rebuild will take care of that; new seals, anti-rattle spacers, etc.

-James

[Blacklane]

That sounds like a VANOS rattle. Look over the Biesan Systems site.

[wcampbelliv]

Thanks for the responses, but I thought this was Vanos rattle:
https://youtu.be/2Pib91DsJlU

The sound in the first video I posted is clearly different as it's present throughout the entire rev band and only increases in speed, not intensity (like the Vanos rattle).


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[328 Power 04]

Hmm, I would have bet that was lifter slap as well, sounds a lot like post hard-autoX-run lifter noise.

[nevan]

When I was helping out a buddy with his s54 valve adjustment, I noticed that his engine made very similar noise as in the attached video in prior to shim replacement.

I understand s54/52 are very different engines. And I am no expert. But based on what I heard and experienced, I would have to say that it sounds valve/lifter related over vanos.

[wcampbelliv]

When I was helping out a buddy with his s54 valve adjustment, I noticed that his engine made very similar noise as in the attached video in prior to shim replacement.

I understand s54/52 are very different engines. And I am no expert. But based on what I heard and experienced, I would have to say that it sounds valve/lifter related over vanos.

Ok so we stand at 3 votes for lifter tick, 3 for Vanos.

After looking at the process for the s54 valve adjustments, that particular design prevents you from really damaging the valve stems because the shims are directly in contact with the valve stems and they are the component taking the direct hit from the rockers. Unfortunately that experience won't help me here.

Now to steer the convo back to my original question - what kind of damage will be caused to the valve stems by running the s52 engine with valve tick during normal driving?


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[bionicbelly]

Sounds like the same thing my car does when I autocross. If it goes away after awhile, then comes back after a hard run, you are fine. My car has been doing that for seven years. Also, EVERY M5x, S52 engine in our region.

[BimmerBreaker]

Valve tick wont hurt anything but usually adding extra oil alleviates it. Youve taken steps to fix valve tick but none to fix vanos, and the marbles in a can sound often is vanos. My s52 vanos sounded very similar until I did vanos seals

[bionicbelly]

FWIW-I have done the vanos rebuilt, rebuilt the engine, and cleaned all the lifters, added a baffle in the pan, and still get the lifter tick after hard runs.

[Bobkid]

Not a BMW fix, but I've cured several old engines with bad valve ticking by adding a quart of ATF to the crankcase in place of a quart of the oil.

[EBlue540]

Just to cover all bases, I had what I was certain was a serious engine issue with a tick like that. Turned out to be a loose spark plug. It is a thing with the S52 and I dodged the whole expensive repair thing. good luck!

[wcampbelliv]

Sounds like the same thing my car does when I autocross. If it goes away after awhile, then comes back after a hard run, you are fine. My car has been doing that for seven years. Also, EVERY M5x, S52 engine in our region.

If I were tracking the car, doing really hard driving, or if the ticking went away after regular driving - I would chalk it up to standard s52 chatter. Unfortunately it ticks all the time.

Valve tick wont hurt anything but usually adding extra oil alleviates it. Youve taken steps to fix valve tick but none to fix vanos, and the marbles in a can sound often is vanos. My s52 vanos sounded very similar until I did vanos seals

I appreciate the thought process, but seeing as I have to remove the valve cover anyway to resolve the vanos issue (which I plan to do as a precaution while I'm in there), I'd rather know if the lifters need replacing so I can order all the right parts and have everything on hand at once. My sound isn't marbleS in a can, more a single rhythmic tick that gains frequency as the engine revs. Not like the sound my M54 made before the vanos rebuild.

FWIW-I have done the vanos rebuilt, rebuilt the engine, and cleaned all the lifters, added a baffle in the pan, and still get the lifter tick after hard runs.

I've heard the same from a number of folks so I'm prepared for that, but until I get the car on a track - I'm totally BAFFLED by the constant ticking.

Not a BMW fix, but I've cured several old engines with bad valve ticking by adding a quart of ATF to the crankcase in place of a quart of the oil.

I've read that a few places and think that's the next thing I'll try. All recommendations on that front suggest draining a quart, adding the ATF, running for a short period of time, draining the engine, refreshing all the oil. Is that the process you used? How many miles should it run in there? Until the ticking is gone or a certain mileage point?

Just to cover all bases, I had what I was certain was a serious engine issue with a tick like that. Turned out to be a loose spark plug. It is a thing with the S52 and I dodged the whole expensive repair thing. good luck!

That was the first thing I checked. I replaced all the plugs with new. I need to do the screwdriver-to-the-ear stethoscope trick to see if I can better pinpoint the noise.

[Bobkid]

I've read that a few places and think that's the next thing I'll try. All recommendations on that front suggest draining a quart, adding the ATF, running for a short period of time, draining the engine, refreshing all the oil. Is that the process you used? How many miles should it run in there? Until the ticking is gone or a certain mileage point?

I ran it full time in 2 older Ford V8's and a straight 6 Jeep. I just substituted 1 quart of ATF for one of oil. If I changed the oil and didn't put it in, the tick would slowly return.

[328 Power 04]

IF you find it's a failed hydraulic lifter, (do the investigations first),

isn't replacement quite straight forward after removing the camshafts? Of course identifying the one of 24 will be a little difficult.

I had a 323i E36 with the M52 in Europe that had a mild-moderate tick, I drove it for 3 years and many thousands of kilometers and it was just a noise issue, it ran real well and didn't misfire or anything.

[Randy Forbes]

IF you find it's a failed hydraulic lifter, (do the investigations first),

isn't replacement quite straight forward after removing the camshafts? Of course identifying the one of 24 will be a little difficult.

I had a 323i E36 with the M52 in Europe that had a mild-moderate tick, I drove it for 3 years and many thousands of kilometers and it was just a noise issue, it ran real well and didn't misfire or anything.

Not as hard as you'd think; narrowing it down to one (1) cylinder is pretty easy, and it wasn't all that difficult to ascertain if the fault was intake or an exhaust lifter (probably a 50/50 guess WHICH of the two intake or exhaust lifters, until it's been removed, cleaned up and in your hand).

The first S-52 I did a complete rebuild on, I installed new Shrick cams AND twenty-four (24) brand new lifters, all from the same vendor. Within several hundred miles (<1000 mi) there was a noticeable ticking, and I was obligated to remedy the cause and effect a repair. Sure enough, upon teardown, I had correctly diagnosed it to the cylinder and I/E, but to be certain, I replaced BOTH lifters, using OE BMW parts (the ones supplied by vendor were not OE BMW).

Point is, yes, replacing the lifters is not difficult to do, but you do have to have all the appropriate cam tools on hand__timing and replacement__in order to successfully swap them out.

[Mr Bingley]

I don't know about adding a quart of transmission fluid--that might have been ok with a pushrod straight 8--I used to use Marvel Mystery Oil for the same purpose on Detroit Iron, but these are dual overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, variable valve timing, extremely tight tolerance engines, and I think that approach may not be as safe anymore. I wouldn't discount the possibility that it's not a lifter at all. I say use an automotive stethoscope (not a long screwdriver) and isolate the exact locus of the ticking--you may be surprised to discover it's an evap control return line leak, or and exhaust leak, a bad igniter, or something completely unexpected. Dig some more before going the snake oil route.

[325bob]

I don't know about adding a quart of transmission fluid--that might have been ok with a pushrod straight 8--I used to use Marvel Mystery Oil for the same purpose on Detroit Iron, but these are dual overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, variable valve timing, extremely tight tolerance engines, and I think that approach may not be as safe anymore. I wouldn't discount the possibility that it's not a lifter at all. I say use an automotive stethoscope (not a long screwdriver) and isolate the exact locus of the ticking--you may be surprised to discover it's an evap control return line leak, or and exhaust leak, a bad igniter, or something completely unexpected. Dig some more before going the snake oil route.

So running a coupla minutes with 6 qts of kerosene isn't the sludge treatment anymore?LOL

[Bobkid]

So running a coupla minutes with 6 qts of kerosene isn't the sludge treatment anymore?LOL

I've always held the kerosene in reserve to wash down faded paint. Does a good job of stripping off that oxidized layer.

[wcampbelliv]

Thanks for all the replies - I've order a mechanics stethoscope to see if I can pinpoint the location of the tick before I dive into the engine.

Possibly related to this issue is that the car seems to hesitate slightly to turn on after it's been sitting a while and then it feels like the engine is going to choke out when I put it in first and apply the throttle. After that, it evens out and doesn't happen again until after it sits for maybe 8+ hours. Maybe pressure related? btw, no CEL's. Maybe I should clean the MAF?

Not as hard as you'd think; narrowing it down to one (1) cylinder is pretty easy, and it wasn't all that difficult to ascertain if the fault was intake or an exhaust lifter (probably a 50/50 guess WHICH of the two intake or exhaust lifters, until it's been removed, cleaned up and in your hand).

The first S-52 I did a complete rebuild on, I installed new Shrick cams AND twenty-four (24) brand new lifters, all from the same vendor. Within several hundred miles (<1000 mi) there was a noticeable ticking, and I was obligated to remedy the cause and effect a repair. Sure enough, upon teardown, I had correctly diagnosed it to the cylinder and I/E, but to be certain, I replaced BOTH lifters, using OE BMW parts (the ones supplied by vendor were not OE BMW).

Point is, yes, replacing the lifters is not difficult to do, but you do have to have all the appropriate cam tools on hand__timing and replacement__in order to successfully swap them out.

Randy - appreciate your comments. What's your opinion on the Schrick cams? Worthy upgrade if I'm already removing the cam shafts?

I don't know about adding a quart of transmission fluid--that might have been ok with a pushrod straight 8--I used to use Marvel Mystery Oil for the same purpose on Detroit Iron, but these are dual overhead cam, 4 valve per cylinder, variable valve timing, extremely tight tolerance engines, and I think that approach may not be as safe anymore. I wouldn't discount the possibility that it's not a lifter at all. I say use an automotive stethoscope (not a long screwdriver) and isolate the exact locus of the ticking--you may be surprised to discover it's an evap control return line leak, or and exhaust leak, a bad igniter, or something completely unexpected. Dig some more before going the snake oil route.

I had seen that trick posted somewhere before as ATF apparently has a very high concentration of strong detergents. The other places that recommended it only suggested running it for a couple hundred miles then draining. I'll only try this as a last resort if my minor rebuild doesn't pan out. I'll let you know what the stethoscope ferrets out.

IF you find it's a failed hydraulic lifter, (do the investigations first), isn't replacement quite straight forward after removing the camshafts? Of course identifying the one of 24 will be a little difficult. I had a 323i E36 with the M52 in Europe that had a mild-moderate tick, I drove it for 3 years and many thousands of kilometers and it was just a noise issue, it ran real well and didn't misfire or anything.

From everything I've seen - it's straightforward enough that I could tackle it. Based on the severity of the tick, I think it'll be pretty obvious which lift has failed (assuming it's a failed lifter after all).

[328 Power 04]

Is this on the S52? Camshafts would be good, but it's a very poor upgrade if not matching it with a tune, larger MAF, and M50 manifold.

(Oh and the Riot Racing regrind cams are not worth it. Inappropriate and unresearched cam profile according to a few tuner acquaintances.)



Are you able to locate the sound easily with a stethoscope? Always curious how accurate of a method it would be to close in on the noise in valvetrain (if that).

[BimmerBreaker]

Camshafts are great and all, but horrible bang for the buck on our cars. I wouldn't spend the money even if you have to dig around the head.

[wcampbelliv]

Is this on the S52? Camshafts would be good, but it's a very poor upgrade if not matching it with a tune, larger MAF, and M50 manifold.

(Oh and the Riot Racing regrind cams are not worth it. Inappropriate and unresearched cam profile according to a few tuner acquaintances.)



Are you able to locate the sound easily with a stethoscope? Always curious how accurate of a method it would be to close in on the noise in valvetrain (if that).

The sound location is yet to be determined. Stethoscope arrives next week and I won't have time to work on her until July. I'll update once I get under the hood.

This is the S52. I intend on Schlick cams and getting a tune after everything is done. I have an M50 manifold, and Dinan intake tube (just need to get a new filter - recommendations welcome). Anything in particular I should look for regarding the MAF?


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[wcampbelliv]

Camshafts are great and all, but horrible bang for the buck on our cars. I wouldn't spend the money even if you have to dig around the head.

Other than forced induction, is there more bang for buck besides cams?


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