Video: ATTN Palmer Experts: Any feedback for me ??

[BryDog]

ATTN: Palmer Experts: Any feedback for me ??

* The last lap my gas pedal started coming off, so I had to kick it back into place while I slowed down let a bunch of people by.
* Tried some different ways through vs last couple times - getting on gas earlier in 1, later apex through 2, staying on the gas in 3 and double-apex in 4, deeper brake in 7, and more of a constant-radius through 12. RESULT - about the same lap time as before


Background:

Palmer Motorsports Park on May 24, 2017
Club: SCCA Track Night in America - Advanced Run Group
Warm @ 71 degrees
2001 E46 330ci (250hp -- 3100 lbs)
PSS10s - camber 2.7F/2.2R
Intake/Headers/Software/3.46 Diff/Hoosier R7s
Best on the day was 1 min 59 seconds




NOTE: If you don't want to watch the full 11 min video (don't blame you) the one good lap starts at 6:10 in this particular video.

[Pat533i]

Im no expert on palmer (been there once) Heres my two cents though. The line is really open for interpretation in a lot of corners there. Everyone has a different opinion on the "fastest" way through some of the corners. So its hard to say what you will prefer for you and your driving style. I think a general tip would be just to keep your eyes up and work on getting back to FULL throttle sooner. You can get to full throttle in-between 6 and 7, but be prepared to trail brake. Trail braking will help a lot at this track with all the late apex turns. I can't really tell in the video if you are or not.

Here is my Palmer video to check out. Looking forward to getting back there to improve on turns 10 thru 14 and with my new 3.46 diff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfgTwfsuTyE&t=379s

[FredK]

I watch this video before I go each time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xRlPvnSxNM

Your lines look pretty good, I think you can attack the corners a bit harder with R7s. I bet you're losing at least a second in T14, it's more important to point the car in the right direction than to get to the apex cone, so that you can get on the throttle sooner -- basically you want to maximize your speed on the long front straight.

I'm not a very fast driver, but I know I'm losing time by not using all of the runoff on T1. You want to basically get over the white line like Pat533i does.

Continuing through T2, you want to gauge your grip so you know you can make the apex of T2, then right after that feed in power as quickly as possible. It looks like you have plenty of lateral grip, so you can definitely go faster here. You should be able to pretty much go flat, maybe breathe on the throttle to tuck into the apex of T3, all the way until the braking zone of T4. T4 is kind of a stressful braking zone because you have to get a lot done very quickly. I know I can carry around 5 mph more here but I'm too chicken.

I liked how you went through T8, I think you can feed in the power sooner, also T9 is a fast sweeper that you should be able to breathe off the throttle then get right back on. T11 is a deceptively fast corner, you can definitely carry more speed. But I always let off the throttle instead of just plowing on through, it must be a psychological thing of remembering how to go through T12 - 14.

[BryDog]

Those are great tips. Thank you. Also, solid videos to watch as examples - I will study those.

Lots to learn at this track. Need more seat time and open track to figure it out.

I wonder if I need to run more camber. I also try to follow tire pressure but the Hoosier's seem temperamental wrt to pressure; every lb matters big time.

More feedback the better !!!

[TXBDan]

How's it going? I was signed up for that event but had to bail at the last minute due to some work stuff.

You simply need to step on the gas more. :-D You can power out of turns waay sooner and give more gas more of the time in 2-3 and out of 13 through 14. Those R7s will stick!

[Evergreen Dan]

In most turns, if you aren't full throttle at or just after the apex, you turned in too early. The exception is fast-in / slow-out turns from a large straight to a small straight, such as T4. You can see this in T2. Stay track right longer and you'll have better exit speed. Similarly, if you don't need all the track-out width, you turned in too late or too slow (T7, I think, a bit hard to see). Use all the track-out in T8. Never pinch the exit of this turn if you get spooked -- the car is unweighted as you crest and you'll spin and/or worse. Try to get track left for the entry to T9. Be patient on turn-in. The wider you enter T11, the more throttle you can carry through the complex to the braking zone. Good trail-braking opportunity. Set up T14 to be full throttle at the apex, but don't put two off. Early in T13 puts you early in T14. This leads to a long straight and exit speed is important.

If only you had an instructor. Oh wait. TNIA.

[BryDog]

>> Step on the gas more

easier said than done of course but yes, I agree

Hopefully catch up at one of the next events !

[BryDog]

* General question *

Turn 3 & 4 --> Which is better ?

A = straightening turn 3 and ending up right coming into 4
B = rounding turn 3 and ending up left coming into 4

turn 4.jpg

A - seems like can carry more speed through 3 as it is more straight, then throwing away 4 as double-apex
B - can also see that less speed through 3 to round that corner is better, as it may result in more speed through a wider single late apex in 4

Having done it both ways for several laps, my Harry's data indicates A is faster but I haven't done enough laps to really conclude and Harry's isn't completely reliable. I also lose grip at 90 if I attempt "B" -- and don't know how these guys hit 100 through 3, maybe more hp or different entry into 3, not sure.

Thoughts?

[FredK]

Yeah, what makes stepping on the gas more comfortable is to visualize how you want the car to be set up for the apex so that you can get on the gas as early as possible, rather than to driving to an apex. Since you want to prescribe the widest arc possible through a turn (in general), if you don't feel comfortable going full throttle because you feel like you're going to run out of track out, you probably apexed too early! I am an offender of this because I'm subconsciously thinking that "I have to make it to the turn." But, if you fight that urge, hit your marks, you can carry a lot of speed.

[FredK]

I do something closer to "B", except when I track out for T3 I find myself around mid track, maybe shifted over a little to the left.

[Evergreen Dan]

T4 is the end of a full throttle T2-T3 section. T4 is a throw-away to T5. Therefore this is a fast-in / slow-out corner. I get as far left into T4 as I can, consistent with being flat through T3, not scrubbing excess speed, and having the car settled at the braking point. Usually in my car this isn't very far left of track right if I've done T2 and T3 right. Use the T4 curb to help rotate the car and set up track right for T5. Turn into T5 as early as you can, consistent with being full throttle as soon as possible all the way to the track out. This is usually earlier than you might think, depending upon car. T5 is important because even though the straight before T6 is short, it is steeply uphill and takes a lot of time. Exit speed from T5 is important. In traffic, set up T4 left to get a good run into the T5 turn-in so you can pass before T6.

[BryDog]

T4 is the end of a full throttle T2-T3 section. T4 is a throw-away to T5. Therefore this is a fast-in / slow-out corner. I get as far left into T4 as I can, consistent with being flat through T3, not scrubbing excess speed, and having the car settled at the braking point. Usually in my car this isn't very far left of track right if I've done T2 and T3 right. Use the T4 curb to help rotate the car and set up track right for T5. Turn into T5 as early as you can, consistent with being full throttle as soon as possible all the way to the track out. This is usually earlier than you might think, depending upon car. T5 is important because even though the straight before T6 is short, it is steeply uphill and takes a lot of time. Exit speed from T5 is important. In traffic, set up T4 left to get a good run into the T5 turn-in so you can pass before T6.

Good stuff Dan. Thank you.

[TXBDan]

Had an event at Palmer over the weekend and there was a video walk through session with Nick Fontana (not slow) that was helpful. T4 is a problem corner for me, but i think i made some progress with his notes and some more practice. According to Nick, its a fast-in, slow-out corner. You enter track left pretty fast and trail brake all the way to the apex of 4. He says if you're coasting or modulating throttle to get to the T4 apex, you came in too slow. That's a pretty wild ride and requires some gumption. He then said as soon as you hit the apex of 4, turn in left aggressively straight up the T5 curbing, apexing early at the beginning of the T5 inside curbing on the left. So probably 4ft earlier than the cone that is sometimes there. There is that rough/graded patch, but there is about 10" of smooth pavement between the curb and the grating which is where your left wheel goes, straddling the grating. The effect of this is that you keep your T4 entering momentum aiming up the hill.

I also found carrying more speed and trailing braking deep into 8,10,13 give you the rotation you need while carrying some speed. Basically come "uh oh" hot, turn that sucker in under braking and swing the back end around. This track is ALL about aggressive trail braking.

[BryDog]

TXBDan - Thx for replying & sharing info.

So, if I'm understanding you (or rather Nick) correctly and thinking through the sequence of 4 & 5 specifically, are we saying that an early 5 throw-away turn is best/fastest? Shown below, I think you are saying "A" is faster. Single late apex through 4, trail-braking to apex, then immediate left up the hill to throw away 5 and get back on the gas.

Right ?

turn 4 and 5.png

btw - "This track is ALL about aggressive trail braking."
ah yah, agree and commands major respect out there, no messing around at this track, given the lack of runoff space in every turn.

[TXBDan]

I'd say in between A and B and hugging the inside T5 curbing a little longer. Hard to say as its a different perspective. I went to crunch my TT video last night, but the got damn gopro was in time lapse mode instead of video mode. So pissed.

[FredK]

I went to crunch my TT video last night, but the got damn gopro was in time lapse mode instead of video mode. So pissed.

Aw poop. How'd you do?

[TXBDan]

I was reasonably happy with a 1:48.6 but that was only good enough for 3rd with these hotshoes!

[BryDog]

I was reasonably happy with a 1:48.6 but that was only good enough for 3rd with these hotshoes!

That's a great time - well done. You must have a pretty awesome car to accompany those skillz

[FredK]

I was reasonably happy with a 1:48.6 but that was only good enough for 3rd with these hotshoes!

Wow, that's great! Were you using your new tires?

[TXBDan]

Yep, the new sticky ickies (R1-Ss). They knocked 4s off my best NT01 time (1:52s) in my first 3 laps on them.

Yeh, Bryan, your old car is doing great, but sadly probably slower than when you had it. It's ballasted up to 3340lbs total, stock sway bars, stock intake, pullies. Lots of demodding It's that way to make COMSCC T70 class.

I'm still a good second behind the class leader so i have some work to do.

Here she is parked into T2:
35058984556_df4f51cb54_k.jpg

[BryDog]

"demodding" LOL !

So pumped you are enjoying the car. We will have to meet up one of these days - especially now that I'm back in the game.

And nothing slow about a 1:48 ! Congrats.

[BryDog]

Figured I'd post a follow up, in case anyone is following this thread and interested. I attended the BMW event this past weekend. EvergreenDan was a great classroom instructor by the way so kudos to EvergreenDan.

I ended up hopping a ride with a competition driver (AER racer in E36 M3) who gracefully nailed a very different line through the carousel sequence of 12.

I thought I'd share:

A.png
This was the way I have been going thru ..

B.png