E36 M3 Problems: E46 M3 Front Lower Control Arm Swap

[King Hax]

Already posted this in Suspension and Handling, but I want to cast a wide net and get this solved, soooooo...


Hey all,

I'm currently mid-way through swapping E46 M3 front lower control arms into my 1995 E36 M3, and I've come across a hurdle. The outer ball joints on the control arms that bolt into the steering knuckle don't seem to fit. The Inner ball joints bolted into the sub frame nice and tight, and my bushing solution for my lollipops worked really well too. But what I thought was going to be the easy part, the outer ball joints, refuse to fit all the way. At most, I can get them in to the point that the top of the spindle is flush with the hole in the steering knuckle, but I don't have enough threads to get a nut onto it.

If anyone has tried this before and knows more than I know (which isn't hard lol), please enlighten me. It's summer, I want my car back.

[tiMASTER]

I thought about doing this swap for about five minutes... the E46 track is wider so your wheels will stick out. That's why I didn't go through with it.

You may change the knuckle, or go with E30 M3 LCAs. Same track but aluminum like the E46 ones.

[King Hax]

I'm aware of the results that the E46 arm will give on an E36 chassis. My concern is with regard to the outer ball joint spindle and why the E46 spindle won't fit into an E36 knuckle. As far as the research I've done indicates, the E46 ball joint spindle should fit right into the E36 knuckle.

[jmo69]

IDK if this will help, but I put non m e36 outer ball joints in my e46 xi arms. Maybe you can do the same or e36 m joints. The non m joints are 49mm in diameter, I don't know what size the e46 or e36 m3 use. Just a thought.

[ScotcH]

The e46 M3 uses a larger stud. Will not fit. You could swap the ball joint I suppose. Most people that do this use the non-M arms, which DO fit, and still give you way wider track.

[King Hax]

Alright, good to know. Does anyone know what steering knuckles would be compatible with the larger E46 M3 stud? I would honestly prefer to get new steering knuckles than buy different control arms at this point... My existing E36 M3 knuckles aren't exactly pretty, so it could be a good excuse to bolt something else up.

[ScotcH]

Alright, good to know. Does anyone know what steering knuckles would be compatible with the larger E46 M3 stud? I would honestly prefer to get new steering knuckles than buy different control arms at this point... My existing E36 M3 knuckles aren't exactly pretty, so it could be a good excuse to bolt something else up.

Ummm ... the e46 M3 ones? The Z4M might also work, but I don't know ... they use the same strut mount as the e36

[King Hax]

Darn, that's what I was worried about... Nuts. Thanks Scotch and everyone, looks like I'm either getting E46 M3/ Z4M knuckles, or else non-M arms. I would rather replace the knuckles, but we shall see how things go! These knuckles aren't super easy to find, but hey! I'm learning things lol

[ScotcH]

Darn, that's what I was worried about... Nuts. Thanks Scotch and everyone, looks like I'm either getting E46 M3/ Z4M knuckles, or else non-M arms. I would rather replace the knuckles, but we shall see how things go! These knuckles aren't super easy to find, but hey! I'm learning things lol

Did you check out the balljoint diameter? I know the e46 and e36 are the same, maybe the M3 is as well? I used the Ground Control roll correcting kit sold for e36 on our e46 without issue.

[King Hax]

Did you check out the balljoint diameter? I know the e46 and e36 are the same, maybe the M3 is as well? I used the Ground Control roll correcting kit sold for e36 on our e46 without issue.

I didn't know the outer ball joints in the E46 M3 control arm were removeable. That could be kinda handy... I will have to do some measuring, then. Swapping ball joints would be a lot easier than getting new knuckles lol What's the ball joint diameter of an E36 M3 ball joint, if anyone knows off by heart? I think I may have tossed my old ones already... lol

[TH3 Shifty]

Sooo... why do this as opposed to the E36 arms?

[King Hax]

Sooo... why do this as opposed to the E36 arms?

Wider front track, a little more angle, etc.

*Apparently*, this is supposed to be a relatively easy bolt-in mod that a lot of people do to gain some angle with their E36 drift cars, but the DIYs are pretty scarce, and no one I've found seems to have this outer ball joint stud problem. So I'm a little dubious about this whole thing. But I'm going to try anyways. It's definitely a learning experience, if nothing else.

[bluptgm3]

Darn, that's what I was worried about... Nuts. Thanks Scotch and everyone, looks like I'm either getting E46 M3/ Z4M knuckles, or else non-M arms. I would rather replace the knuckles, but we shall see how things go! These knuckles aren't super easy to find, but hey! I'm learning things lol

E46M3/Z4M king pin/steering knuckle has different strut interface. You will need E46M3/Z4M struts, which are probably a different length and have a different strut tower interface.

The E30M3 aluminum control arms have a small inner ball joint, shaft is same diameter and length as E36, the control arm has same geometry as 1995 M3 (318/325/323/328).

1996M3 got different geometry in the king pin/steering knuckle, control arm (w/centered CA Bushing), strut bearing plate. The inner and outer ball joint shaft diameter are the same as E30 and E46. E46M3 outer ball joint shaft is different diameter.
The E46 non-M has same ball joint shaft diameter as all E36 ball joint shaft diameters.

The E36M3 inner ball joints are not intended as replaceable, thought people have been known to use E30 ball joints. The E36 non-M outer ball joint is replaceable and has a BMW p/n and is of different outer diameter. However, it is a rubber isolated ball joint. Meyle offers replacement inner and outer ball joints (probably E30 parts), Lemforder as well.

The SCCA issued a warning to replace E30 alloy /steel control arms (do to small inner ball joint), after xx number of events or annually. The notice included E36 Steel control arm. .


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[King Hax]

E46M3/Z4M king pin/steering knuckle has different strut interface. You will need E46M3/Z4M struts, which are probably a different length and have a different strut tower interface.

The E30M3 aluminum control arms have a small inner ball joint, shaft is same diameter and length as E36, the control arm has same geometry as 1995 M3 (318/325/323/328).

1996M3 got different geometry in the king pin/steering knuckle, control arm (w/centered CA Bushing), strut bearing plate. The inner and outer ball joint shaft diameter are the same as E30 and E46. E46M3 outer ball joint shaft is different diameter.
The E46 non-M has same ball joint shaft diameter as all E36 ball joint shaft diameters.

The E36M3 inner ball joints are not intended as replaceable, thought people have been known to use E30 ball joints. The E36 non-M outer ball joint is replaceable and has a BMW p/n. However it is a rubber isolated ball joint. Meyle offers replacement inner and outer ball joints (probably E30 parts).

The SCCA issued a warning to replace E30 alloy /steel control arms (do to small inner ball joint), after xx number of events or annually. The notice included E36 Steel control arm. .


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Okay, thank you. So that means that, in order for this to work, I need to either change my control arms to non-M E46 arms, or else replace the outer ball joints in my existing E46 M3 arms to a shaft size that fits (non-M E46 or E36).

I know that the outer ball joints in E46 non-M arms are replaceable (or are they...?), but are the M3 versions replaceable as well? I know they aren't for the E36s...

[bluptgm3]

I know that the outer ball joints in E46 non-M arms are replaceable (or are they...?), but are the M3 versions replaceable as well? I know they aren't for the E36s...

I don't think any of the alloy control arms 'feature' replaceable ball joints as intended by BMW.
E36 non-M control arms 'feature' a rubber isolated replaceable outer ball joint.
E36 M control arms do not 'feature' replaceable ball joints.

I have seen posts indicating the use of E30 and/or aftermarket (Meyle) ball joints used to replace both inner and outer ball joints in E36 control arms (w/20 ton press.) perhaps they also fit E46/E46M3 CAs. I see Meyle offer replacement ball joints for E46 CAs.

I suspect by nature the alloy control arms are less forgiving than the forged steel E36 CAs.



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[King Hax]

I don't think any of the alloy control arms 'feature' replaceable ball joints as intended by BMW.
E36 non-M control arms 'feature' a rubber isolated replaceable ball joint.
E36 M control arms do not 'feature' replaceable ball joints.

I have seen posts indicating the use of E30 and/or aftermarket ball joints used to replace both inner and outer ball joints in E36 control arms (w/20 ton press.)



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Okay, thank you, bluptgm3, you're a huge help!

[E36lover22]

Hey I just purchased e46 m3 control arms also and have the same exact problems , I don't have time to figure out different ways of getting around this sooo. I took out my trusty angle grinder and trimmed it down to fit in the knuckle , worked on the one side I've done so far . Gonna do the other side tomorrow.

[ScotcH]

Hey I just purchased e46 m3 control arms also and have the same exact problems , I don't have time to figure out different ways of getting around this sooo. I took out my trusty angle grinder and trimmed it down to fit in the knuckle , worked on the one side I've done so far . Gonna do the other side tomorrow.

Jeebus ... ok man. Hope you don't track that shit.

[E36lover22]

Jeebus ... ok man. Hope you don't track that shit.

I'm actually building it to track , it's not as bad as it sound , I just shaved not even a mm around so it sits snug in the knuckle and increases slightly in circumference when it gets pushed in . So still super strong . I wish I could just send a picture to show you but I am new to the forum and can not post pictures yet


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[bluptgm3]

Ya, LOL!!! Typically those parts are case hardened to give them strength, potentially the "case hardened" aspect has been ground away.


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[E36lover22]

Ya, LOL!!! Typically those parts are case hardened to give them strength, potentially the "case hardened" aspect has been ground away.


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Well only time will tell , I'll let you know how it goes


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[King Hax]

Hey I just purchased e46 m3 control arms also and have the same exact problems , I don't have time to figure out different ways of getting around this sooo. I took out my trusty angle grinder and trimmed it down to fit in the knuckle , worked on the one side I've done so far . Gonna do the other side tomorrow.

With a little research, you can find the proper bushings to fit your lollipops. I started with an E46 M3 setup, but the outer ball joints didn't match my steering knuckles. So I'm going to an E46 330i ZHP setup instead. My goal for this is to have everything function the same, properly, intact, as it would on the E46, but in my E36. So far, the ZHP outers fit my knuckles, I'm just waiting on new bushings.

I would recommend a bushing swap as oppose to grinding your control arms, tbh. At the very least, it's safer, and when it comes time to maintain them, its easier to swap in new components as well, for the simple fact that they don't need to be modified (ground) to fit.

EDIT: I've been thinking about writing up a small DIY on this once I'm finished, just so that others don't need to go through the same trial-and-error that I did. Assuming anyone is even interested in this, of course lol

[E36lover22]

With a little research, you can find the proper bushings to fit your lollipops. I started with an E46 M3 setup, but the outer ball joints didn't match my steering knuckles. So I'm going to an E46 330i ZHP setup instead. My goal for this is to have everything function the same, properly, intact, as it would on the E46, but in my E36. So far, the ZHP outers fit my knuckles, I'm just waiting on new bushings.

I would recommend a bushing swap as oppose to grinding your control arms, tbh. At the very least, it's safer, and when it comes time to maintain them, its easier to swap in new components as well.

I'm sure I will end up changing it up to be more "bolt on", but for the mean time I'm trying to get my car ready for bimmer fest , I've been looking into the bimmer world tubular control arms , but the price.. yikes! We'll see . What year is your e36 btw


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[ScotcH]

I'm actually building it to track , it's not as bad as it sound , I just shaved not even a mm around so it sits snug in the knuckle and increases slightly in circumference when it gets pushed in . So still super strong . I wish I could just send a picture to show you but I am new to the forum and can not post pictures yet


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Wait ... do you mean you ground down the aluminum hex part of the arm to fit into the control arm bushing? That's totally acceptable. If you ground down the BALLJOINT stud to fit the steering knuckle, you're just asking for a failure, especially on track man ... don't do it.

[E36lover22]

Wait ... do you mean you ground down the aluminum hex part of the arm to fit into the control arm bushing? That's totally acceptable. If you ground down the BALLJOINT stud to fit the steering knuckle, you're just asking for a failure, especially on track man ... don't do it.

It's the place where it insert into the lollipop in the back because I'm running the solid ones with the really small bushing and there is no way of doing a e46 conversion bushing in there, it's the solid offset lollipops that are smaller that condor speed shop sells


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