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Thread: Requesting help on turbo failure

  1. #1
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    Requesting help on turbo failure

    My Holset HX30W failed and was wondering if you could help me finding the cause.

    First, a little background: The car is a 1988 325ix, running 12 psi of boost with Megasquirt on a M20 engine.
    I run that setup since 2008 on track days only, no DD.
    The car was running fine when I stored it last fall.

    I don't know if it is related, but, this spring, I installed bigger injectors, scaled down my VE table, and upped the boost with a 17psi spring.
    At my first event in May, I was tuning the fuel and got very rich fuel in some occasions (9-10), and some lean also at around 16.
    The turbo was not boosting to full boost, only like 5psi, but since I was doing some tuning (VE table) I thought it was related to that. Then, at my second event, I had 0 psi of boost. After investigation, I found that the turbo shaft was not turning anymore, and the compressor wheel touched the housing.

    I disconnected the oil supply and restrictor from the CHRA, and while having someone starting the engine, I could see a steam of oil, so oil supply is there. I then disconnected the oil return tube, and blew in it to make sure there was no restriction, and it was clear.

    Could it be only normal wear and tear from 8 years of track time?
    I don't want to install a new turbo and kill it right away.

    I will either have the turbo rebuilt or if the price is too high vs a new one, I will just buy a new one. I may decide to go with another brand, like Precision, may be.

    Thanks for the help.







    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  2. #2
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    That thing looks like its from the 1980s lol. Time for an upgrade!

  3. #3
    Def's Avatar
    Def is offline Lead Disagreement Eng PE
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    Turbos don't live forever under track usage. I had a Garrett BB GT2871R blow the bearing cage out on me after ~4-5 years of track abuse. It happens, and generally the more robust the CHRA, the longer it'll last. I'd pretty much rate them like, crappy Precisions and the like (sure to get some hate for that here... but it's been proven enough times...) << quality journal bearing CHRA (Garrett, BW, Holset, IHI etc.) < lower capacity quality BB units like Garretts < Borg Warner EFR BB CHRA, which I've actually never seen an example of a bearing failure that wasn't an immediate, rare quality control issue (which all brands suffer to some degree - nature of making something that spins at 150+k RPM).


    I do have a question though, what's your BOV setup like? Did you ever get compressor surge either getting into boost or letting off the throttle? If so, you likely scuffed your thrust bearing over time and that is what its ultimate failure mode was.

  4. #4
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    I don't think a Holset needs an oil restrictor.
    1997 328is - Megasquirt PNP, Holset HX35, Deka 80lb injectors, SPA T3, Precision PW39 WG, Synapse Synchronic BOV, DKM Organic Twin Disc Clutch, Innovate LC-2 W/B, Mishimoto Intercooler, Mishimoto Catch Can, Mishimoto Rad, Devils Own Meth, Porsche 911 calipers with E46 M3 rotors, Corsa Exhaust

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    Turbos don't live forever under track usage. I had a Garrett BB GT2871R blow the bearing cage out on me after ~4-5 years of track abuse. It happens, and generally the more robust the CHRA, the longer it'll last. I'd pretty much rate them like, crappy Precisions and the like (sure to get some hate for that here... but it's been proven enough times...) << quality journal bearing CHRA (Garrett, BW, Holset, IHI etc.) < lower capacity quality BB units like Garretts < Borg Warner EFR BB CHRA, which I've actually never seen an example of a bearing failure that wasn't an immediate, rare quality control issue (which all brands suffer to some degree - nature of making something that spins at 150+k RPM).


    I do have a question though, what's your BOV setup like? Did you ever get compressor surge either getting into boost or letting off the throttle? If so, you likely scuffed your thrust bearing over time and that is what its ultimate failure mode was.

    So, it may be very possible that it died from a normal death.

    My BOV is a Tial and is mounted maybe 24'' from the throttle body and the signal comes from the intake manifold where I installed a multi port fitting.

    I don't think there is surge. The BOV seems to vents well, and as soon as I shift and go back on the throttle, the response is instantaneous (having a small turbo helps also).

    I also read bad reviews about Precision, but also, I read that since 2010 or so, their quality was not a problem anymore. Have you heard of post 2010 Precision turbos having problems?

    I took a look at BG at Summit Racing, and wow, they are like $1500 usd, and that means $2000 cdn!!! That's why I was looking at the Precision one, $750usd= $1000cdn, easier to swallow.

    Thanks for the help.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by somebody5788 View Post
    I don't think a Holset needs an oil restrictor.
    When I built my system, I remember reading a lot on Holset turbos, and people mainly were using HX35 and were saying that a restrictor was needed to keep oil from leaking past the seals.

    Have you heard that it was not required?

    - - - Updated - - -

    LOL, no, it is not shiny and fancy because it comes from a Cummins engine used on industrial generators, and Bobcat loaders.
    They work well and are capable of high boost.

    An upgrade would be nice, but that means my piping, down pipe, WG tube won't fit anymore and we are in summer and I need my car on the track. Oh well, if it is what is required, I will have to go that route.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  7. #7
    Def's Avatar
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    I would go with a journal bearing Borg Warner, maybe a S256/S200SX before going with a Precision.

    https://www.full-race.com/store/turb...sx-7670-turbo/

    https://www.full-race.com/store/turb...croll-turbo-1/

    Or if you want a billet wheel:

    https://www.full-race.com/store/gara...mw-57mm-turbo/

    - - - Updated - - -

    And to answer your question, yes, I've seen quite a few Precision turbos blow up on track since 2010. They seem to handle drag racing for the most part, but track usage puts everything under much more stress.

  8. #8
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    listen to DEF.

    But you shouldnt be touching your VE with an injector change. You really should only be changing the REQfuel calculator and maybe the accel enrichment settings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And i also agree that i dont think holsets use a restrictor.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  9. #9
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    Neither of the holsets on the two 5.9 cummins sitting on the floor of my garage have a restrictor. In most cases a journal bearing turbo with a proper drain will not need one and should not have one.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  10. #10
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    Def, thanks for the links.
    Those have good prices for BW.
    But unfortunately, my manifold is a T3 flange and those turbos come standard as a T4 divided.
    There is one that can be ordered with a T3 open flange for an extra $350, but in their description they say: Comes standard with a 1.22 A/R Twin Scroll T4 turbine housing (recommended). So, may be a T3 opening 0.7 A/R will be too small.

    Actually, my Holset has a turbine which is 12cm2 with a T3 divided opening. I read that this translates to 0.89 A/R for my specific turbo, so I should aim for the same size or a bit bigger since I'm increasing HP, and now that I think about it, above 4500 rpm, the car seems to have less acceleration, so maybe my turbine is not big enough?

    My goal is 350 crank HP or a bit more.
    Last edited by TurboBimmer; 05-22-2017 at 10:44 PM.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  11. #11
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    Dburt86, I was not sure which way to do it so I choose the VE table.
    But, do both ways achieve the same results? The only bad thing I can see (now) by scaling down my VE table is that the numbers are smaller and the tuning software has bigger jumps to make adjustments.

    I went from 38lbs to 52lbs injectors, so I multiplied my VE table by 0.731
    If I go back to my original VE table, does that mean I have to multiply my REQ fuel (7.5) by 1.368? (=10.263)
    Last edited by TurboBimmer; 05-22-2017 at 10:44 PM.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBimmer View Post
    Dburt86, I was not sure which way to do it so I choose the VE table.
    But, do both ways achieve the same results? The only bad thing I can see (now) by scaling down my VE table is that the numbers are smaller and the tuning software has bigger jumps to make adjustments.

    I went from 38lbs to 52lbs injectors, so I multiplied my VE table by 0.731
    If I go back to my original VE table, does that mean I have to multiply my REQ fuel (7.5) by 1.368? (=10.263)


    Exactly but use the req fuel calculator. Super easy.
    328i Sedan Twin s366's, 6.0LS, TH400, MS3 Ultimate
    9.20 at 150 on 22psi

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBimmer View Post
    Def, thanks for the links.
    Those have good prices for BW.
    But unfortunately, my manifold is a T3 flange and those turbos come standard as a T4 divided.
    There is one that can be ordered with a T3 open flange for an extra $350, but in their description they say: Comes standard with a 1.22 A/R Twin Scroll T4 turbine housing (recommended). So, may be a T3 opening 0.7 A/R will be too small.

    Actually, my Holset has a turbine which is 12cm2 with a T3 divided opening. I read that this translates to 0.89 A/R for my specific turbo, so I should aim for the same size or a bit bigger since I'm increasing HP, and now that I think about it, above 4500 rpm, the car seems to have less acceleration, so maybe my turbine is not big enough?

    My goal is 350 crank HP or a bit more.
    Why don't you just chop the divided T3 flange and weld on a divided T4 flange? Divided T3 is an oddball, and really limits your turbo choices.

    The open T3 housing would be fine too, with some turbulence from the divided to open volute, but it's not the end of the world when you're not chasing every HP possible. Not sure why you think a 0.7 A/R open T3 would be too small when you only want ~350 bhp. It would be fine. Twin scroll A/Rs need to be larger due to the higher wetted area of the volute. A single scroll A/R isn't directly comparable for how the engine responds. (i.e. you generally want a 30-50% larger twin scroll A/R than single scroll for roughly how the engine responds, but different volute sizes change the swallowing parameter etc. of the turbine wheel, so as with all things, "it depends on the details").

    You're not looking to squeeze 500-550 bhp out of that turbo, so I wouldn't worry about the small stuff.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Def View Post
    Why don't you just chop the divided T3 flange and weld on a divided T4 flange? Divided T3 is an oddball, and really limits your turbo choices.

    The open T3 housing would be fine too, with some turbulence from the divided to open volute, but it's not the end of the world when you're not chasing every HP possible. Not sure why you think a 0.7 A/R open T3 would be too small when you only want ~350 bhp. It would be fine. Twin scroll A/Rs need to be larger due to the higher wetted area of the volute. A single scroll A/R isn't directly comparable for how the engine responds. (i.e. you generally want a 30-50% larger twin scroll A/R than single scroll for roughly how the engine responds, but different volute sizes change the swallowing parameter etc. of the turbine wheel, so as with all things, "it depends on the details").

    You're not looking to squeeze 500-550 bhp out of that turbo, so I wouldn't worry about the small stuff.

    That's a good suggestion. I'm in contact with people at Full-Race and they try to find me something.
    The problem is the SX200 is discontinued and replaced by a more expensive one.
    I'm waiting an answer from them. I would like to have a BW turbo :-)
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBimmer View Post
    If I go back to my original VE table, does that mean I have to multiply my REQ fuel (7.5) by 1.368? (=10.263)
    Use the req fuel calculator as dburt said but the number will go down, not up with a bigger injector. You will need to retune your cranking pluse widths, accel enrichments, warmup, ect


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by someguy2800 View Post
    Use the req fuel calculator as dburt said but the number will go down, not up with a bigger injector. You will need to retune your cranking pluse widths, accel enrichments, warmup, ect
    Ok, I see.
    But if I modify the VE table instead of the REQ fuel, do I have to re tune all the above (accel enrichments etc)?

    I know it's not the good way of doing it, but if it can make the car usable faster for my next event, I will do the REQ fuel method later.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  17. #17
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    Depends on what version your running. The older firmware versions of ms1 and ms2 just have a value for cranking pulsewidths and accel enrichment in milleseconds. For anything with a millesecond value you would need to retune either way. The newer ms2 extra and ms3 versions scale all the fueling values as a percentage of ReqFuel so those would not have to be retuned if the req fuel is reset correctly. It still might take a bit of fine tuning but will be close.


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  18. #18
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    Thanks, I'll take a look. I have a old 2008 MSII (extra?).
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  19. #19
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    I'm using a s257sxe on my s52 it is a great setup for these motors imo. You probably could run the smaller sxe but like you said the exhaust housing is not t3 from bw you would have to get an aftermarket option.

  20. #20
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    I think I'm due for an update.
    I bought a S200SX-56. It came with a T4 flange so I had to weld a T4 flange to my T3 flanged manifold and port it for a smooth transition.
    The BW has a T4 flange but a T3 volute, so the turbine is not too big.
    Compared to my old HX30, the compressor housing is shallower but larger in diameter. This larger diameter added to the additional half inch of the new flange, created a problem with the hood. But 5 minutes later and a cutting disc, problem solved :-)

    I followed the advice given by you guys, so I put back my VE table like before, and modified my Req fuel. I spent my first track day trying to tune the VE table with Megalogviewer but it seemed that the version I have is not compatible with my version of Megatune, so I had strange numbers at some places, not easy to spot, but, I lost my first day running very rich and not getting anywhere. After finding that, the second day I tuned manually, buy looking at the AFR gauge, tach, and boost gauge, and manually modifying the VE table. It was not easy, but to my surprise, I did quite well, and the car leaned out in the 11.5:1 (from 9:1) and suddenly, a lot of power could be feel. Wow! The car is FAST, and I'm happy :-)
    The VE table is still rough and need some work, but at least the car is usable and I can 'play' with the big boys.

    On the left, the BW with a T4 flange but with a T3 volute, compared to the HX30

    20170613_071643.jpg

    View of the different shape of compressors:

    20170613_071657.jpg

    And, I need to cover that. I have a MIG, so I can make something, I just need to decide what to do.

    20170627_194324.jpg
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  21. #21
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    I would see if you can trim this to fit over it and then put another one on the other side in the same spot


    86 325es, 2.8L m50, S476sxe, ProEFI 128 ecu, e85, solid rear axle, TH400 trans, 28x10.5w slicks, zip ties, popsicle sticks, tape
    best time 9.06 @ 151.8 mph, best 60 foot 1.30

  22. #22
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    Is there an image? I can't see it.
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  23. #23
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    You chose a good turbo. Which housing are you running with the T4? I've heard open ones are the worst. Tuning by AFR is probably the smart thing to do. Thinking a calculator will make things perfect could result in smoke:/ They work sometimes but your new turbo is completely different from the Holset. Boost will come on differently and flow more at the same PSI

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JOutterbridge View Post
    You chose a good turbo. Which housing are you running with the T4? I've heard open ones are the worst. Tuning by AFR is probably the smart thing to do. Thinking a calculator will make things perfect could result in smoke:/ They work sometimes but your new turbo is completely different from the Holset. Boost will come on differently and flow more at the same PSI
    Yes I choose a good turbo, thanks for the suggestion given by some of you guys.
    I'm using the default housing that comes from BW, 1.22 AR divided. I know the some company sell their own housing, which are smaller, and spool faster, but for me, this one is perfect. My car is a dedicated track car, so I rarely have rpms lower than 4000 so I have instant full boost all the time, and like you said, that turbine flows a lot.

    To tune more my VE table, I would have to buy the Tuner Studio MS and use the VEAL for lve tuning. But migrating from my old Beta 2008 MS to this new TS is a lot of work I think. Everything is different. I give me 2 days to decide what I do LOL

    Right now I'm at 15 psi, so maybe 320 at the crank but with a fat torque curve. I'm on a stock (new) gasket, Metric Blue bolts only. No orings, no welded channels, and stock distributor. I think I'm at the limit of the current setup, unless 17psi can be done :-)
    ______________2000 Z3__ __1988 325ix turbo______________

  25. #25
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    Switch over to the current software platform. Staying on the old one is just a short term gain but a long term headache IMO. The switch shouldn't be bad. Most of the data for base setup should transfer. Once on the new platform you can take advantage of the tuning tools and new features. Its also easier to keep up with new software releases.

    Food for thought.
    -Nick
    91 E30 M42 on VEMS

    Turbo Camshaft Thread

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