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Thread: 996 Brembo brake project

  1. #76
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    2001 Z3 3.0i E36/7 5spd.
    So, I am going the Porsche Brembo upgrade route, both front and back, on my (non-M) Z3 3.0i roadster (yes I am taking racing lessons soon and will be tracking the car, plus I do like the looks!).

    Like other non-Z owners (like fallguy and Remotion in this thread) I face the problem of keeping the parking brake because of the 'extra deep' hat on the rear rotors that serves as a drum for parking brake shoes.

    I got the contact info for 'the guy in Poland' (thanks @fallguy) and have sent him an email asking about options and prices. I don't need his brackets as I already ordered front and rear brackets from RallyRoad.

    In the meantime, much searching around has brought me to what looks like another possible solution from Wilwood.
    They make a rear big brake kit called "Dynapro Rear Brake Kit For OE Parking Brake" part number 140-10960 (add 'D' for drilled and slotted, add 'R' for red vs. black calipers).

    Now if you look at the Wilwood site for this product and then scroll down to the bottom of the page you can see the part numbers for the Rotor Hat and the Rotor (yes it is a two piece design).

    The Rotor Hat part Number is 170-10961 and if you go to its page you can get a PDF drawing and dimensions (most of them anyway).
    All the dimensions given look to me like they will work just fine on our Z3. The only missing dimension is the depth of the parking brake drum section, i.e. from the rotor mounting tabs back towards the centerline of the car (as mounted).

    The reason I stumbled on to these in the first place is that I found a single site, VividRacing, that had this Wilwood part number 140-10960 listed as fitting BMW Z3 96-02 (just go to vividracing and search 140-10960). Other sites have this but they list it as a 'Backdraft Cobra Rear Brake Kit' or as a "Wilwood 140-10960-D Dynapro Lug Mount Rear Brake Kit, BMW E36 Based".

    The listing is a "Wilwood Dynapro Radial 12 Inch Rear Big Brake Kit BMW Z3 96-02" and it is on sale for $999.99 [+$100.00 for drilled & slotted rotors, +$150.00 for red calipers].

    From there I went to Wilwood site to do more research...
    It is funny, but Wilwood, if you select a BMW Z3 96 to 03, non-Z, does not list any big brake kits, front or rear, but numerous sites sell them??

    Anyway, continuing on, back to the Rotor Hat, part number 170-10961. The diameter of the inside 'drum area' where the parking brake shoes will act, is the correct dimensions (I measured my existing rotor). The 5x4.72 stud/lug hole number and diameter is correct. It does not appear to have a hole for the set screw, but that could be drilled. The center hole diameter is a little larger than my BMW OEM rotor, but that should not be an issue (smaller would be an issue).
    The offset dimension from where the hat sits flush against the spindle face to the mounting tabs of the rotor is listed at 2.08" which appears to jive with the same dimension of an E46 M3 rear rotor (in other words the rotor will be at the proper depth for the Porsche Brembo caliper on a RallyRoad bracket, at least according to my measurements).

    I am going to try and get a missing dimension from Wilwood (either total height of hat as sitting on a table, or from back side of rotor mounting tab to back face of hat). If that looks correct I will then buy a single one of these first, just to make sure of fitment, before ordering another plus two rotors.

    Here are the part numbers for the associated rotors:
    160-6925-BK / 160-6924-BK for drilled & slotted rotors, left and right respectfully
    OR
    160-6984 for plain flat rotor

    As for purchasing I found the 2 Rotor Hats plus the 2 Drilled & Slotted Rotors at Jegs for a total (free shipping, no tax to TX) of $650.72
    I do not know what the 'custom' rotors with a pressed in brake drum sleeve, from the gentleman in Poland cost yet, but we will see.

    This rotor is a little smaller than the 328mm BMW E46 M3 rotor at 12.19" (309.626mm), the radius is about 9.187mm smaller (a little less than 3/8 of an inch). The mounting boss of the caliper may have to be slightly machined (like the fronts when you use the 328MM E46 M3 rotor) or maybe just use REAR boxster pads instead of front ones?

    This looks like it may be a possible alternative from a major manufacturer - either buy the whole Big Brake Kit for the rear (for around $1200) or buy the hats and rotors as part of the DIY kit using RallyRoad or Polish gentleman brackets and sourcing used (or new) Porsche Brembo calipers.

    So far (just talking about the rear brakes) the RallyRoadbrackets plus SS brake lines are about $260, the calipers I got from ebay (used) $300, plus the above hats and rotors (if they will work) $650, plus pads, new caliper hardware, rebiluld kits and paint, etc. $150 which adds up to about $1360 plus my labor.
    Not bad for a Brembo 4 pot caliper / Wilwood 2 piece rotor hybrid big brake kit....
    Last edited by wfidrock; 04-08-2018 at 06:53 PM.

  2. #77
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    TLDR, I did not read all but there are 20 companies that promise about Z3 but then in closer inspection they dont have anything fitting. None of the other BMW rears work. D2 / K-tec sell some bigbrake kit but their reviews are rubbish.

    I bought only cad images from polish guy as he could not deliver on products that I ordered first.

    Caliper mounts were turned to 3D and machined from T6 aluminium. Then anodized.

    Handbrake needs work. I manufactured it from 50mm thick steel plasmacutted to approximate rings, then lathed them to be 0,1mm bigger than hole in the brakedisk. Then fitted with frosted rings and heated brakedisk. Fitment was done using thermal expansion. Then there are 3 holes with threads each 120° from each other. Then set screws tightened in to make additional bite. All zink coated at last. I have not yet taken my car to use for this season, winter just released it's snowy hold here.

    I have 2 questions still unanswered and they are following:

    1) Does the 2.8 non-M master cylinder make good brake boosting and feel to the system, do I need M-version?

    2) What brake shields to use, in rear propably normal Z3 rears as they have correct placement for handbrake screw?
    In front should I buy Z4 M or M3 CSL Shields? They are absolutely mandatory in Finland, I cant drive the car without them.

    Any help is much appreciated.
    Last edited by Remotion; 04-08-2018 at 07:22 PM.

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  3. #78
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    Yes, I realize lots of companies promise Z3 but then when you look close they do not fit.

    That is is why I started 'looking close' by looking up part numbers on Wilwood web site and began to realize that they make this particular brake for "OEM parking brake" and that it is based on an E36 design with a parking brake drum.
    The big question is the one dimension that they do not list on the drawings, is that hat deep enough.

    Parking_Brake_Hat.png

    If the image is to scale then I think it is, the missing dimension, from the caliper mounting flange to the rear of the hat needs to measure about 0.86 inches. The total depth of the inside of the hat need to be just under 3 inches to match our standard rotor hat depth.
    The depth shown on the Wilwood drawing from the inside face to the back of the rotor mounting flange is 2.08, and if the 'missing' dimension (from the back of the flange the rest of the way) is 0.86 that comes to 2.94 inches.

    So, if the drawing is to scale it looks promising...

  4. #79
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    @Remotion

    Master Cylinder:
    I would think that you would still use the same (Non-M 2.8) master cylinder for your braking system, as well as all the antilock braking system, etc.

    My reasoning?
    When you change from a single piston caliper to a dual piston or 4 piston or 6 piston, etc. the bore size of the pistons will decrease proportionately as the number of pistons increases.
    Most of the big brake upgrade kits for a lot of different vehicles (not just our Z3) state that they will 'work well with existing master cylinder and ABS systems'.

    I certainly would not change anything until I tried these new calipers / rotors with your existing master cylinder and see how the braking performs.

    Brake Dust Shield:
    As for your question about brake shields, I am not sure as I have not got this far yet in my project, just gathering parts at this point.

    As Jamesons Viggen answered you he 'just trimmed down' his dust shield and I would think that this is going to be the only option short of having something custom designed and manufactured. I cannot imagine any stock shield that would be the right shape for this upgrade 'off the shelf'.

    If a trimmed down dust shield won't pass inspection in Finland then what about cutting / trimming the shield where needed for clearance and then, where there are objectionable gaps, forming new sheet metal 'add-on' pieces that could formed to the right shape and then be riveted on to the existing shield?

  5. #80
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    Z3M calipers are 60mm front, 40mm rear. Z3 calipers are 54mm front, 36mm rear. M master is 20.6mm/20.6 while the Z3 is 23.8/20.6 . Has anyone actually done the math?


    /.randy

  6. #81
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    After spending the lunch hour digging around, I still do not have a concrete answer on the Porsche side of thing. It appears the rears are 30mm leading and 28mm trailing.. The fronts, however, are listed as either 44mm or 40mm leading and 38, 36, 32, or 28mm for the trailing.. And three different masters, of which I can find specs on only one. 36mm/23.8mm.


    As an aside, the reason for the odd master bore sizes is because ATE still uses Imperial measurements... 13/16" and 15/16", which BMW et al translate to metric.


    It's not that I am interested in doing this to any of my cars. I'm just curious what this change does to the braking dynamics.


    /.randy

  7. #82
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    the e36 rear disks could be a little bigger, the 996 rear pads seem to ride off the edge a little.

    would be interesting to see those wilwood hats

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfidrock View Post
    @Remotion

    Master Cylinder:
    I would think that you would still use the same (Non-M 2.8) master cylinder for your braking system, as well as all the antilock braking system, etc.

    My reasoning?
    When you change from a single piston caliper to a dual piston or 4 piston or 6 piston, etc. the bore size of the pistons will decrease proportionately as the number of pistons increases.
    Most of the big brake upgrade kits for a lot of different vehicles (not just our Z3) state that they will 'work well with existing master cylinder and ABS systems'.

    I certainly would not change anything until I tried these new calipers / rotors with your existing master cylinder and see how the braking performs.

    Brake Dust Shield:

    If a trimmed down dust shield won't pass inspection in Finland then what about cutting / trimming the shield where needed for clearance and then, where there are objectionable gaps, forming new sheet metal 'add-on' pieces that could formed to the right shape and then be riveted on to the existing shield?
    If they wont pass inspection I will promise to do custom ones from cabonfiber with propably air inlets in them too.
    But I have to ask if I could drive without them, and just left parts that are needed for handbrake.

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  9. #84
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    @fallguy

    So, Wilwood answered my question today:

    Thank you for the inquiry with Wilwood Disc Brakes.

    The width of that overhang is 0.800”, +/- 0.005”. With that in mind, the overall height should be:

    Overhang + offset + face thickness = 0.800 + 2.08 + 0.25 = 3.13”

    Please let us know if you have further questions, we are happy to help.

    Regards,
    Wilwood Disc Brakes

    Question:
    I have a question about Parking Brake Hat No: 170-10961 From the drawings and dimensions shown it appears that it will fit on my 2001 BMW Z3 3.0i (non M). There is one missing dimension in order for me to be sure though. This page:
    http://www.wilwood.com/Hats/HatProd....emno=170-10961
    Shows the dimension known as the Hat Offset (2.08") from the inside mounting face to the inside edge of the rotor mounting flange. The missing dimension would be from the inside edge of the rotor mounting flange to the inner edge of the hat (i.e. closest the center-line of the vehicle as mounted). Or, the total height of the Brake Hat as it sits on a table. Thanks, Walter

    So, what he is saying is the distance from the inside face of the hat (where it sits against the spindle) is 0.800" + 2.09" = 2.88". This sounds about right, I measured a older rotor that I had taken of my Z3 just using a ruler and that same distance was just under 3".

    The 3.13" dimension is the total width of the hat, which is going to be a bit more than a BMW rotor as the face thickness of the BMW rotor is less that the 0.25" of the Wilwood hat (not sure exact thickness, will measure this also). This extra face thickness (it is not much, probably something like 3/32") will just result in the tire getting a small 'built-in' wheel spacer...

    I will measure it more accurately with some calipers when I get home from work this evening (as well as the inside diameter for the parking drums, which Wilwood lists for part 170-10961 as Shoe I.D 6.31").

    I think if those numbers check out I will buy just a single hat from Jegs for $179.86 (estimate ship date of 5/22/2018) and see how it fits before I commit to another plus rotors.

    I measured the Boxster S rear pads that came on my used rotors, the width of the pad surface along the arc was about 47mm (again with a ruler not a caliper, will re-measure).
    The specs from Wilwood on the rotor for the above hat are 12.19" diameter and inside diameter of 8.53". So. 12.19 - 8.53 = 3.66. Divide that by 2 and you get a rotor width of 1.83" (46.48mm).
    So according to my preliminary measurements the original rear pads for these calipers should works for these Wilwood rotors.

    From what I can see so far, the only modification will be to mill down the mounting areas to account for the smaller rotor diameter of 12.19" (309.626mm) vs the 328mm BMW M2 rotors typically used. Probably need to mill something like 9mm, but I will wait and see what everything looks like if I get that far.
    Last edited by wfidrock; 04-10-2018 at 05:02 PM.

  10. #85
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    So, the HAT 170-10961 from Wilwood (despite what they TOLD me the dimensions where) is NOT correct for the NON-M Z3 models...
    They gave me incorrect dimensions in the email.

    I will be returning the hats to them, but they did point me to Coleman Racing who does custom hats, rotors, etc. Not sure if I can afford them but I am sending off a request for a quote for a set of custom HATS that will fit my Z3 3.0i and use the Wilwood rotors I already purchased.

    If that route (custom HAT) is too expensive I will return the Wilwood rotors also and order a set of Wilwood MC4 Mechanical Parking Brake Calipers and design my own custom mounting brackets (and use the BMW 750i rear rotors). I will also have to use a new set of parking brake cables (they are trim to length) and maybe a little custom work at the brake handle end. Plus form a new sheet metal dust shield around the, now exposed, area where the parking brake shoes will not be covered by the shorter 750i rotor hat.

    I will update later on the progress, the project was on hold for a while because, unfortunately, my wife recently passed away.
    Now I need to work on my Z3 to keep occupied...

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wfidrock View Post

    I will update later on the progress, the project was on hold for a while because, unfortunately, my wife recently passed away.
    Now I need to work on my Z3 to keep occupied...
    Sorry to hear of your loss, my condolences.

    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    After spending the lunch hour digging around, I still do not have a concrete answer on the Porsche side of thing. It appears the rears are 30mm leading and 28mm trailing.. The fronts, however, are listed as either 44mm or 40mm leading and 38, 36, 32, or 28mm for the trailing.. And three different masters, of which I can find specs on only one. 36mm/23.8mm.
    As an aside, the reason for the odd master bore sizes is because ATE still uses Imperial measurements... 13/16" and 15/16", which BMW et al translate to metric.
    It's not that I am interested in doing this to any of my cars. I'm just curious what this change does to the braking dynamics.
    The 996 come in models C2, C4, GT3 and Turbo , sizes in links below.
    https://www.s2forum.com/forum/techni...819#post717819

    Different car but I did a 993TT caliper (larger) on a 944T and it affected the brake pedal feel and front to back brake bias. I went back to stock caliper in the rear. and a different brake bias valve to get back to good threshold braking. Stopping distance was not that much different but a lot longer life on pads and rotors and way less brake fade. Porsche caliper have a small arrow on them showing rotor rotation direction, thinking the smaller size piston goes on leading edge.
    Last edited by Adker; 05-15-2018 at 12:13 AM.

  12. #87
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    So less front brake, more rear. Front to rear ratios are 2.25:1 for the Z3M, 1.72:1 for the 996.


    /.randy

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by rf900rkw View Post
    So less front brake, more rear. Front to rear ratios are 2.25:1 for the Z3M, 1.72:1 for the 996.
    Makes sense, the 911 has the entire engine behind the rear axle. The 944T I was upgrading is a front engine car with a rear transaxle so it was close to a 50/50 weight balance, more like a Z3.
    Last edited by Adker; 05-19-2018 at 02:29 AM.

  14. #89
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    It means nothing, this upgrade runs much bigger discs especially at front than Porsche ever did with the caliper. And we have still BMW valving.

    Mine are at installation stage right now. Got a bit shitty set back today but trying to over come it...

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  15. #90
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    It actually means everything for a street car.


    /.randy

  16. #91
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    Fallguy, how is your brake pedal feeling? Is it snappy or does it need a lot of pedal travel to really brake? Mine has so much air still (and one bleed in rear had a leak so I only have fronts now) in that I cant really say anything, but I am still curious if I need to invest into bigger brake master cylinder or brake servo?

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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remotion View Post
    Fallguy, how is your brake pedal feeling? Is it snappy or does it need a lot of pedal travel to really brake? Mine has so much air still (and one bleed in rear had a leak so I only have fronts now) in that I cant really say anything, but I am still curious if I need to invest into bigger brake master cylinder or brake servo?
    If you have the calipers oriented properly (bleed screws facing up) and bled properly, they shouldn’t be a problem. This upgrade doesn’t change the total piston area that much so you shouldn’t have an issue with the master cylinder. The feel should be former with a fixed (versus sliding) caliper.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #93
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    Ofcourse I have then right way. Come on, this project took 4 months, parts from 2 different continent, 7 different countries and 5 different manufacturer of different parts here.
    I am always super mega anal and perfectionist in everything. So yes they are built and mounted the right way. That is why one of the bleeders did leak because we had to change U-pipe from end to other end... I have not yet rears installed as this is being getting sorted. That is why I cant yet know and I dont have final result.

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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remotion View Post
    Ofcourse I have then right way. Come on, this project took 4 months, parts from 2 different continent, 7 different countries and 5 different manufacturer of different parts here.
    I am always super mega anal and perfectionist in everything. So yes they are built and mounted the right way. That is why one of the bleeders did leak because we had to change U-pipe from end to other end... I have not yet rears installed as this is being getting sorted. That is why I cant yet know and I dont have final result.
    You asked about brake pedal feel, yet mention that you have air in your system and had issues with installation- that doesn't sound like they were set up properly. You don't need to swap all 4 calipers to remove the air in your system; also, if anything, you will have far fewer variables in your MC sizing question if you install upgrades on the front axle first and see how that works before doing both. The piston sizes are easily measurable, then it's just a math problem.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remotion View Post
    My setup is ready for car. Thank you for initial responses that helped me on my way!






    That's a great looking set up and I'm sure it'll improve the braking capability of your car quite a bit.

    I'm not trying to be a wet blanket and/or rain on your parade in any way but just to nit pick a bit, none of the rotors you're showing or as the OP indicated are true floating rotors. BMW may have called them such with some marketing liberty. They are really all solid with the fronts being a kind of close as you're going to get to a floating without it being a true floating rotor. I had the same ones on my e36 M3 and the difference is that they are a single solid assembly with the hats connected to the disk by several pins which if I recall may be aluminum. This helped allow the heat built up in the disk portion to dissipate and not soak into the hat area thus allowing the whole assembly to cool quicker and more efficiently and it does work which is way they were found on the CSL.

    A true floating rotor is a completely separate piece from the hats, two pieces with the hats made of aluminum and the disk iorn. There is actually some clearance in the assembly that allows the rotors to rotate every so slightly on the pins (screws and spring loaded nuts) that bolts them onto the hats, in some cases rivets are used. By keeping the hats and rotors decoupled the heat dissipation efficiency is greatly improved. The pins allow float and movement between the two, (hence the terminology) which stops the rotor from warping under extreme heat due to different expansion rates of the metals or in the case of a single solid one piece rotor and hat the disk portion and the hat portion.

    I'm not sure how much difference it actually makes but one advantage with a true floating rotor may be when it comes time to replace the disk because that's all you have to buy. You can reuse the hats and just replace the disk portion hopefully at a lower cost.
    Last edited by CMM3; 06-04-2018 at 05:17 PM.

  21. #96
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    Brakes work great now! It is a pleasure to drive 10/10th.
    With my ast suspension and other mods a friend who has modified E92 M3 said that he would have absolutely no possibility to follow my car on twisties, it is so quick now.

    Some notes to people that want to go this route on non-M:

    1. front brakelines need to be elongated 2-3cm and add about 75° freely moving bend piece to line where it meets caliper.
    2. rear brakelines need to be elongated 10cm.
    3. Grinder down overhanging parts of rear pads.
    4. CNC rear caliper adapters from aluminium it will save a lot of weight.
    5. rear handbrake drum should be made with leif, make them 0,1mm oversize and fit them inside by temperature difference. Aka put drums into freezer and make discs hot and then push them inside. We used 3 additional biting screws every 120°.

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  22. #97
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    Hello Remotion,

    You said:

    "... 5. rear handbrake drum should be made with leif, ..."

    May I ask, what is 'leif' - a material, or process?

    I have ordered the rear brackets from Piotr (the Polish gentleman) and also have his design for the rear handbrake drum.
    It is very similar to what I had come up with on my own, but my design is to fit a E38 750iL Rear Rotor.

    Thanks

  23. #98
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    Remotion, can you post some photos of the Brembo's, I'd like to see how they look on the car.

    Thanks.


  24. #99
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    Ofcourse. I take tomorrow.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I mean machining with rotaring assembly. I meant Lathe, I remembered word wrong, sorry.

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  25. #100
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    Sorry for raising the thread from the dead but I was just checking in to see if anyone still had a source for the non-M rear adapters? Doesn't look like piotres has been active on the forums for a few years now.

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