Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Sway bars and Drifting

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more

    Sway bars and Drifting

    I've ran no sways on my car since I built it. Mostly because most everyone I talked to didn't run a rear so I never tried, and I never figured out how to make a front work with the SLR Ultra kit.

    I did modify an E36 bar to fit with the SLR kit and bimmerworld adjustable end links, and It made me understeer like crazy. As soon as I removed it (at the track) the understeer mostly went away.

    I ran a comp this past weekend and had a few people comment how much body roll my car has, and after viewing a few clips it is apparent that I am flopping all over compared to the more professionally set up cars.

    With that said, I am looking for opinions here. Who is running fronts / rears / both / none and why they set it up that way.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    fairfax,va, usa
    Posts
    5,684
    My Cars
    2 E30s and a maxima
    If you run a front bar and no rear bar, understeer makes sense if you had no other changes. I like the JR line of thinking. Set the car up with lots of suspension movement like dirt track.

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more
    Well, I just ordered some bars to see what happens now that I have the alignment and other things addressed.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    75
    My Cars
    96 328IS, 08 IB E92 M3
    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    If you run a front bar and no rear bar, understeer makes sense if you had no other changes. I like the JR line of thinking. Set the car up with lots of suspension movement like dirt track.
    +1. Run front sway bar, but mess with camber and dampening in the front to mitigate the understeer. Crank lock your car and take a look at the camber on the inside wheel, Personally, I like to set up my drift cars with as close to 0* of camber at lock as possible, then dial positive a degree or so to account for suspension travel.
    Anthony Bartolini
    Loki Motorsports
    1996 328is Drift Car
    Stock Internal M52
    M50 Manifold
    PTE 6262, ARP's, .140 MLS
    OBX T4 Top Mount
    Tial 44mm MVR
    Tial Q 50mm
    Open Dump Love <3

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more
    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    Well, I just ordered some bars to see what happens now that I have the alignment and other things addressed.
    Didn't I read on here that those mustangs have real soft springs and real heavy bars?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki Motorsport View Post
    +1. Run front sway bar, but mess with camber and dampening in the front to mitigate the understeer. Crank lock your car and take a look at the camber on the inside wheel, Personally, I like to set up my drift cars with as close to 0* of camber at lock as possible, then dial positive a degree or so to account for suspension travel.
    Cool. With the SLR kit I am currently pretty limited on what I can do as far as camber changes go.

  6. #6
    SLR is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    894
    My Cars
    '08 E46, E36,
    If you look at the angle the strut-mounted links BMW's uses on the E46 (and some earlier select models), what they were doing was a sort of active-suspension preloading which countered the jacking force.

    I first noticed this on my first E28, as you steer to the right, the caster lifts the right side of the car, but since the drop links were angled; as you steered you were loading the anti-roll bar to help counter that force, and so the further you steered, the stiffer the anti-roll bar effectively got. I ran strut mounted links on my drift car for a long time, andat around 55 of steering, they would bind, but the adjustable ones would just loosen one of the heims as the max misalignment was reached.

    Now in counter-steer, and depending on how much caster you run, this effect works opposite, so the anti-roll bar effectively becomes softer as you steer, because the body is rolling in the same direction as the pre-load. My theory on this years ago was that it's nice to have the turn-in response of a proper anti-roll setup as a result of effective weight-transfer (knock knock Wifesab, hello?) while allowing for the anti-roll bar to be less and less effective at large steering angles (since at 90 slide angle, you front and rear axles are now perpendicular to the direction of travel).

    However as the sport has evolved and we worked to create more and more rear grip and speed, I actually said to Chelsea a couple years ago, that we needed to try a reverse pre-load setup, so you would still get the snappy turn-in response from symmetrical anti-roll bar linkage near center, but as the link angles changed in counter-steer, it would actually STIFFEN the front of the car the more you counter-steered. This effectively could be used as a passive dynamic front spring rate to make the car even harder to spin at full lock as the front wants to wash out more and more. Also 3-wheel motion.

    I'm probably giving away way to much here

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    fairfax,va, usa
    Posts
    5,684
    My Cars
    2 E30s and a maxima
    Well that sounds great but how the fuark do you do that?

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  8. #8
    SLR is offline Senior Member Supporting Vendor
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    894
    My Cars
    '08 E46, E36,
    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    Well that sounds great but how the fuark do you do that?

    Altering the relative angles of the anti-roll bar arm and the drop link.

    http://www.drumwagon.net/cars/E36M3/...tRtComparo.jpg

    In the image above you can see that as you steer right, the link will move closer to vertical, meaning it will push the bar down/wheel up. In this setup, the more you steer right, the more it preloads the left front. The angle of the link can be altered (a simple method would be to swap struts from L to R so the tabs face forward instead of rearward) so as to unload the inside wheel in counter-steer.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    fairfax,va, usa
    Posts
    5,684
    My Cars
    2 E30s and a maxima
    Oh ok. That makes a ton of sense. It caused lots of issues with my steering so I just removed the damn front sway bar. I'd really like to go back to the control arm link to just do away with that style link all together.

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more
    wait....are people still using the strut mounted end links with the SLR kit? I was under the impression you couldn't do that. That sure would make life easier if you can.

    I ordered the whiteline bar that Chelsea gave me the part number for a while back, and I still had to modify the damn thing for it to work with the tabs on the SLR arms (using bimmerworld adjustable e36 end links)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    fairfax,va, usa
    Posts
    5,684
    My Cars
    2 E30s and a maxima
    Short answer, never use the strut sway link with an angle kit

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more
    That's what I thought. I'm using these

    SwayLinks_ControlArm_Full_WM.jpgSwayLinks_ControlArm_Full_WM.jpg

    Im just still not a fan of how they fit. Even with driling new holes in the sway bar the heim joints in them are maxed out travel wise, and I feel like that's gotta be preloading the bar or something. IDK.

    I'm using that up front, dampers set to full soft, no bar in the rear and rear dampers set full hard. We shall see what happens this weekend!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    DeWitt, Michigan
    Posts
    4,195
    My Cars
    '97 540i/6, '97 328i
    I foresee snap spins. Are you prepared to easily soften your rear shocks and stiffen the fronts? Not sure what your setup is as far as adjustability..

    This will be very interesting because damping effects the balance of the car the same as changes to roll stiffness in terms of stiffening an end of the car tends to increase grip at the opposite end, but the difference is that the damping changes tend to only have that effect during transitions unless you go so hard or so soft that you start to effect the contact patch control during steady state cornering. By adjusting to soft in the front and stiff in the rear, you should really increase the snappiness of your transitions.

    Not knowing much about drifting, I am surprised to see you complaining about understeer with the power, torque, and throttle response you have available. I would expect that you would want a car setup with quite a bit of rear grip so you can really be on power and just fling that bastard, while knowing that you have enough rear grip to catch and manage your angle exactly how you want it... Maybe adding rear grip like you have with adding the front sway bar has really just muted out a lot more of the snap than I would have guessed. VERY interesting!

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    fairfax,va, usa
    Posts
    5,684
    My Cars
    2 E30s and a maxima
    There's a lot of issues with front tire contact patch at angle when you have lots of rear grip. I've had instances where I can feel a 4 wheel drift with my power level. Plus, with the wider front track width of the angle kit, you generally have an undesirable amount of front camber which makes corner turn in understeer. The FD level cars I see tend to be high grip and slightly on the understeer side. A car that oversteers too easily is slow.

    Status: HG repair. 488wtq though!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    878
    My Cars
    99 328i, a few more
    I've always thought it was the opposite. Increasing front stiffness = increased understeer, and increasing rear stiffness = increased oversteer. I also thought I recalled reading that the reason most people did not run a rear sway bar was due to adding one causing snap oversteer, and ditching it mellows it out.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    DeWitt, Michigan
    Posts
    4,195
    My Cars
    '97 540i/6, '97 328i
    I think I kind of wrote my comments in a backwards-assed way that agrees with what you just said (but in a very confusing way). Increase rear stiffness causes the rear of the car to resist roll, which gives the front more grip, adds load to the inside front and outside rear tires, generally increases oversteer, etc. Shocks normally only show their effect in transitional behavior though, so if your car doesn't want to bite into the corner very well, stiffening the rear shocks can help that by resisting roll at the rear of the car in the turn-in phase. The problem becomes when shock stiffness takes away too much grip at the inside rear tire, causing unintended loopage.

    Also, shocks are a funny thing, so sometimes adding a bit of rebound damping at the front can actually help turn-in too, just by adding precision to the front of the car (pointiness). It's all very interesting, and I can't wait to read about your observations from playing around with it all.
    Last edited by tptrsn; 05-23-2017 at 01:56 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Lakeland Florida
    Posts
    1,298
    My Cars
    1992 325is
    I don't run front or rear bars on my car at all. Turn in is still pretty good. I run my dampers a few clicks up from full soft in the front and full hard in the rear. I don't have much power but it works well for my driving style but after talking to sean about it a good deal I think I ma try the reverse link idea with the front dampers swapped side to side and adjustable links. might give me better turn in although I do like where it is right now but the car will have alot more power soon so maybe I'll need it after I add more rear grip.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    75
    My Cars
    96 328IS, 08 IB E92 M3
    Quote Originally Posted by SLR View Post
    If you look at the angle the strut-mounted links BMW's uses on the E46 (and some earlier select models), what they were doing was a sort of active-suspension preloading which countered the jacking force.

    I first noticed this on my first E28, as you steer to the right, the caster lifts the right side of the car, but since the drop links were angled; as you steered you were loading the anti-roll bar to help counter that force, and so the further you steered, the stiffer the anti-roll bar effectively got. I ran strut mounted links on my drift car for a long time, andat around 55 of steering, they would bind, but the adjustable ones would just loosen one of the heims as the max misalignment was reached.

    Now in counter-steer, and depending on how much caster you run, this effect works opposite, so the anti-roll bar effectively becomes softer as you steer, because the body is rolling in the same direction as the pre-load. My theory on this years ago was that it's nice to have the turn-in response of a proper anti-roll setup as a result of effective weight-transfer (knock knock Wifesab, hello?) while allowing for the anti-roll bar to be less and less effective at large steering angles (since at 90 slide angle, you front and rear axles are now perpendicular to the direction of travel).

    However as the sport has evolved and we worked to create more and more rear grip and speed, I actually said to Chelsea a couple years ago, that we needed to try a reverse pre-load setup, so you would still get the snappy turn-in response from symmetrical anti-roll bar linkage near center, but as the link angles changed in counter-steer, it would actually STIFFEN the front of the car the more you counter-steered. This effectively could be used as a passive dynamic front spring rate to make the car even harder to spin at full lock as the front wants to wash out more and more. Also 3-wheel motion.

    I'm probably giving away way to much here
    Sean, Unfortunately for Chelsea, he's got some dudes at RTR trying to get his car to be a full-time wheelbarrow. lol I live in the Vancouver area and spend time at PSI, after chatting with Chelsea, it seems he is fighting with them to set the car up how he WANTS, but the guys at RTR are dead set on the car having that "look". Even though it really isn't a good setup for drift. I think RTR needs to consider you as a new employee
    Anthony Bartolini
    Loki Motorsports
    1996 328is Drift Car
    Stock Internal M52
    M50 Manifold
    PTE 6262, ARP's, .140 MLS
    OBX T4 Top Mount
    Tial 44mm MVR
    Tial Q 50mm
    Open Dump Love <3

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    633
    My Cars
    e36 m3 rip, e36 truck :D
    very interesting read thus far.
    one thing that was bypassed prior to all these factors are front tire quality....
    and also spring rates....and ride height front to rear.

    me
    I use super grippy fronts....
    with my caster/ camber setup I am full contact at angle with my loaded tire
    I run a e36 m3 sway up front, e46 arms, sir modded knucks (old school) et -10 on the wheels.

    550/750 spring rates.
    I've ran m3 rear bar, but recently took it out for more rear grip.

    never had any issues with balance or understeer etc.
    and granted, I use the clutch a lottttttt...
    even with a v8 stroker, but I do generally run a taller gear to negate the need for shifting.
    if there is ever any chance for bog, a quick kick and I negate that.

    I recently took out the rear bar for more grip which worked great.
    then super recently I've swapped the rear for 600lb springs and no bar, also lowered the rear as low as possible.

    the car now steers better with less input along with having more rear grip.
    I also notice the transitions being smoother and less snappy, but now being more comfortable being really close.......

    my 2c....

    VROOOOOOOM

Similar Threads

  1. FS: E36 M3 Sway Bars and Springs
    By Seamore in forum BMW Parts For Sale (Panjo) sponsored by Bavarian Auto Recycling
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-27-2004, 02:06 PM
  2. FS: Stock E36 M3 Sway Bars and Springs
    By Lee in forum BMW Parts For Sale (Panjo) sponsored by Bavarian Auto Recycling
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-20-2003, 01:28 PM
  3. Sway bars and NVH?
    By M3RACER in forum 1992 - 1999 M3 (E36)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-01-2003, 06:37 PM
  4. M3 OEM sway bars and springs on ebay
    By sgort2 in forum BMW Parts For Sale (Panjo) sponsored by Bavarian Auto Recycling
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-11-2002, 03:41 PM
  5. Put M3 sway bars and an M3 shift lever in my car.
    By Oxcart 1 in forum 1991 - 1999 (E36)
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 10-03-2001, 01:00 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •