steering input habits

[Haifisch M3]

When watching track footage I notice that some drivers use very jerky steering technique. Seems that is should be smooth and progressive. What is the reason for constantly jerking the steering wheel... other than the obvious increased tire wear and less grip in the corners?
I must be missing something here or they wouldn't do it?

[olemiss540]

When watching track footage I notice that some drivers use very jerky steering technique. Seems that is should be smooth and progressive. What is the reason for constantly jerking the steering wheel... other than the obvious increased tire wear and less grip in the corners?
I must be missing something here or they wouldn't do it?

In my opinion, some drivers are more comfortable at the limit if they are "twitching" over the limit. It's a way to feel the limit so you know you are straddling it if that makes sense. Others do it just because it may feel faster when in reality you are constantly scrubbing speed and wearing rubber. Whatever works for you personally, but smoother is faster in most cases while you progress to higher levels....

[aeronaut]

I've wondered the same. With Olemiss's explanation, I used to be a twitcher, constantly hunting for the limit. After running Rcomps for a season, I had to run my street tires in the dry for a day. Smoothed me right up. And now, I'm smooth on the Rcomps. My data says *I'm* faster when smoother. And it's all about me.

[Haifisch M3]

copied from the E36M3 thread, here is an example of what I would consider acceptable levels of twitching (part of it caused by bumps in the road)





then I have seen others that don't twitch but jerk the wheel back and forth between 10 and 2 o-clock

Interesting that some F1 drivers are known for being easy on their tires...wondering if it is related to this

[TheJuggernaut]

One common misconception I've found many drivers have since instructors have been pushing smoothness is confusing smooth with slow and steady. You can move frantically and quickly but smoothly. Smooth just means not overreacting. Professional cars have very high levels of downforce, mechanical grip and endless hours of expert chassis setup. If you don't have that luxury then you have to correct the car and the closer to peak performance you are, the greater and more frequent these corrections may have to be. For those familiar with computer science, think of it as the greatest subset sum problem. For everyone else, think of the series of numbers, 1, 3, -1, 2, -3, 2. The greatest sum isn't the first two numbers, it's the first 4 but you have to first take a step back and include the -1 before you get the 2. Finding the fastest lap is finding the greatest subset sum, where your goal is not to find the fastest way around the track that doesn't require significant corrections but the fastest way around the track that you can keep on the track.

Say for instance, you're going through a turn at a rate where you know that at this speed, there is a bump which will make your car step out. Problem is you can carry that speed through the rest of the turn. The slow and steady way is to go slow enough that it doesn't oversteer, hold the steering nice and steady and give consistent and progressive inputs. It looks "smooth" but that's not what is meant by being smooth on track, it's a safe intermediate technique. The fastest way is to anticipate the slide, correct and keep going. It will require quick steering input but you have to be perfectly smooth, not move too fast or too much.

Here are some examples. Everyone knows Leh Keen and has seen him drive a professional race car, where you don't see him having to correct very much. It's a different story in a 600whp street car on street tires and as far as I can tell nothing special suspension wise (start around 1:15)




Another one I'm more familiar is a friend of a friend who got a pro ride through the GT Academy (he was actually the original winner). He's one of the smoothest drivers you'll ever see, he never inputs a degree of steering more than necessary and it led to many SCCA Solo titles and then pro wins. His pro in-car footage is just as ordinary as the other good pro drivers, but again, those are professionally set up cars with enormous grip, both mechanical and aerodynamic. But this is what it looks like inside a basically stock S2000 on street tires on a very bumpy track. This is at the limit.

[aeronaut]

I agree that driving smoothly (and with minimal steering inputs) at 95% is easy, and that driving at 99% requires compromises otherwise not needed (eg trading a little bit of instability over a bump for overall greater speed). I'm just an HPDE guy, and I'll stay at 95%.....most of the time.

[TXBDan]

I think sawing a bit at the wheel can make you more prepared to react quickly if necessary. Kind of like a soccer goalie during a shootout. They sort of move side to side to keep the muscles dynamic and ready to move. I'm normally pretty smooth and don't saw much, but in the rain i find myself sawing a little so i'm prepared to catch as needed. It might just be a mental thing and might be doing my physical harm than good, but it feels good in a way. I think once you know the car, the track, and have enough experience to accurately predict outcomes of situations, you can be smoother and thus faster.

I think it can also help a little with feeling grip by seeing how the car reacts to the inputs. In the rain on the highway i do it a little to see if the car reacts or not. if it doesn't i'm hydroplaning! I'm not sure there's as much to be gained in good grip conditions, but maybe.

[Haifisch M3]

interesting points being made. I also thought about tennis player rocking side to side waiting for the big serve...or boxer moves.
Of course from a physics point of view if you turn into a constant radius turn... you would steer in and once the radius is achieved your hands would not move at all and that way theoretically you would be able to hold the corner at the highest possible speed (bumps and other irregularities not withstanding) and generate the highest G-forces.
My guess would be that some may do the sawing subconsciously because they have seen others do it. Kind of like baseball player chewing and spitting...

[joenationwide]

I think smoothness is very important, but sometimes there are exceptions.
Slow speed corners can allow for some jerky movements at times.
Last weekend in a race I noticed that if I jerked the wheel a little more I could get a quicker rotation. This was in a slow speed 120 degree constant radius turn.

For high speed turns, I try to be smooth, but not necessarily hold the wheel steady. When I'm at the absolute limit (which is my goal everytime), I find myself sawing at the wheel. I do it unconsciously now, but if I think about it, what I'm doing is constantly testing grip when at the limit. Its basically a bunch of micro-corrections. So imagine mid corner, 75-90mph minimum speed:

I'm holding the wheel turned,...feel it slide a bit,
open the wheel a bit, regain traction,
close the wheel a bit, feel it slide a bit,
open the wheel a bit....and on and on

I do this cycle (open, close) probably 4-8 times per corner I would guess.
This way I can control a steady slide through the entire corner to help me rotate while carrying max speed.
Starting from turn in to apex under trailbraking, and from apex to exit under throttle.
Its the best feeling in the world when its working right!

[19Spec3]

For high speed turns, I try to be smooth, but not necessarily hold the wheel steady. When I'm at the absolute limit (which is my goal everytime), I find myself sawing at the wheel. I do it unconsciously now, but if I think about it, what I'm doing is constantly testing grip when at the limit. Its basically a bunch of micro-corrections. So imagine mid corner, 75-90mph minimum speed:

I'm holding the wheel turned,...feel it slide a bit,
open the wheel a bit, regain traction,
close the wheel a bit, feel it slide a bit,
open the wheel a bit....and on and on

I do this cycle (open, close) probably 4-8 times per corner I would guess.
This way I can control a steady slide through the entire corner to help me rotate while carrying max speed.
Starting from turn in to apex under trailbraking, and from apex to exit under throttle.
Its the best feeling in the world when its working right!

+1 I'm just getting used to this dance now. Dialed in some more camber up front which meant more front grip and less understeer. Compared to the old car it's now really easy to manipulate a slide mid-corner with throttle/brake and steering open/close or some combo of those. I didn't record lap times so I dunno if I was quicker ... but it sure was fun!

[lcrain]

I have had a habit of "hunting" for grip by sawing a tad. I know that changing steering inputs through a corner slows me down and I am consciously working to not do that when I go out. Obviously many corners will require corrections as the rear end steps out, which for this subject I will ignore.

I will say that as I became more aggressive and better as a driver I began to notice the minor inconsistencies of peak grip in my tires across their life. So at peak grip, the car bites perfectly on initial turn in. When the tires start to fall off their peak grip all of the sudden I am under steering a tad. So I would saw a tad to try to find that same grip. Probably not helping the tire life dilemma.

For me, I have found that the more smooth I can be with my steering inputs the faster laps I will generate.

[JBasham]

As a guy that tracks 3 BMWs with model years ranging from 1979 to 2013, I can also say, it depends on the car. In my '79, if I'm not jerking the wheel some, then the CAR will be jerking all over the place. With the 2013, I could probably jerk the wheel a lot without the car even noticing it really. It's not supposed to look smooth, it's supposed to BE smooth in the actual transitions at the suspension/chassis level.

[CoMZ302]

It's not supposed to look smooth, it's supposed to BE smooth in the actual transitions at the suspension/chassis level.

^ This ^

[Stuntman]

To an extent its both good and bad. "Feeling" the limit of grip by quickly adding more steering input, and/or catching small slides is a good thing - to keep the car near the limit of grip. If you're smooth and nowhere near the limit, then you're slow. However, big steering inputs/corrections can often be slow as well. The goal is to keep the car at the limit the entire time and make small corrections. The better you are at this, the less steering input you'll need and thus, your inputs will smoothen out and look slower/smoother, while keeping the car at the limit of grip the entire time.

This is a VERY good read on the importance of car control, and how the 'next step' once you have good car control is smoothening everything out:


Link: http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticl...r-Control.aspx



0.02

[aeronaut]

That's a terrible article. Very drift centric. Basically says all F1, Indy, and NASCAR drivers use 'under developed' car control.

[TheJuggernaut]

That's a terrible article. Very drift centric. Basically says all F1, Indy, and NASCAR drivers use 'under developed' car control.

Is today "opposite day"?

[aeronaut]

Only "opposite lock" day.

[jimmypet]

That's a terrible article. Very drift centric. Basically says all F1, Indy, and NASCAR drivers use 'under developed' car control.

+1
75% complete horseshit.

[TheJuggernaut]

+1
75% complete horseshit.

Would you mind pointing out at least a few things that are horseshit to get me started? I must have accidentally skipped 75% of his article. The one I read is self-evident.

[aeronaut]

The authors definition of good car control is simplified down to being comfortable when the back-end is hanging out, and calls that 'over developed' car control. And unless you have that, you suck.

"Having good car control is not necessary in yaw-sensitive high downforce cars ... "
WTF? Only by his incorrect definition of car control.

"The next category is the Over Developed driver. These drivers have advanced beyond the under developed car control stage and are comfortable driving a car past the limit, such as drifters and rally car drivers. "
Drift and rally cars are NOT driven past 'the limit'.

At the very least a poorly written article, hence my comment that it's a terrible article; confusing and misleading.

[TheJuggernaut]

The authors definition of good car control is simplified down to being comfortable when the back-end is hanging out, and calls that 'over developed' car control. And unless you have that, you suck.

Is he wrong? If you are scared of a sliding car, you will avoid it and will necessarily be driving slower than possible. As he explains, peak tire grip happens at a certain slip angle, which varies by tire type but if you are avoiding slip and aren't comfortable with what happens if you dial in too much then, well yeah, in that sense you suck. There is certainly more to car control than that but realistically, it's the big one. I don't know any driver who has very good attitude control and can't do everything else very well already.

"Having good car control is not necessary in yaw-sensitive high downforce cars ... "
WTF? Only by his incorrect definition of car control.

This is true, in a car with high aero and high mechanical grip (ie racing slicks), you can't slide around like in a Miata on street tires (both because of aero efficiency in yaw and slick tires having max grip at a very small slip angle). I've never driven a serious professional car but he has and all of my friends who have all say the same thing. So in that sense, if you aren't comfortable with controlling slides, it is "easier". You're just not likely to get a pro ride unless you buy one, because the way there is paved with having to slide around...

"The next category is the Over Developed driver. These drivers have advanced beyond the under developed car control stage and are comfortable driving a car past the limit, such as drifters and rally car drivers. "
Drift and rally cars are NOT driven past 'the limit'.

Well, drifters drive past the limit by definition of the sport, they are judged largely by how much and for how long they can exceed it without it being terminal. But he's talking about being comfortable being past the limit, not that rally guys are always past it. Just on dirt you have to learn to slide since there isn't really a static/dynamic friction threshold, which involves exceeding the limit and recovering (or not...). And that can lead to contempt towards yaw angle on asphalt which is at best not as fast as possible and at worst just tire roasting. I've personally seen examples of what he is talking about, where rally guys who are very comfortable driving sideways, are very spectacular and entertaining on a grip lap but ultimately aren't very fast for the reasons he describes. But also for the other reasons he describes, they are easier to bring back to the peak traction angle, rather than the guys who inch up towards it from the other end - they already know how to control the car when sliding, they just need to do less of it.

I once had a top Superbike racer tell me that the difference between racing your own gear and someone else's is that when it's your own bike, you inch up towards the limit and usually never really get there. When you get paid to do it on someone else's, you go right past it and bring it back to 100% (and maybe go back to the pit for new parts). I think that goes nicely with the point this article is trying to make, in that if you're comfortable being across the limit, thanks to sufficient physical and psychological ability, then all you're left needing to do is to dial it back to 100%. But if you lack either or both, then you will just stay below the asymptote. Neither is as fast as possible, hence "overdeveloped" for the one category.

I can't argue with whether or not the article is misleading or confusing as that's a personal perspective (and mine is that it's neither) but I don't see what's wrong with his basic points, which I would summarize as:
-maximum tire grip occurs when they are slipping
-not knowing how to make a car teeter on the peak of grip where it is slipping means you are going too slowly (either by not sliding enough or too much)
-if you aren't comfortable with what happens past the peak, you will probably never find it, or it won't end well if you do unintentionally (at best being scared into not trying again any time soon)
-if you're too comfortable with what happens past the peak, you might be goofing around more than driving fast
-HPDEs won't get you there as they will always, understandably, err on the side of safety
-go practice establishing and controlling slides as being able to do the right amount for your application is the final step in being a fast driver with full car control

[aeronaut]

You obviously got a lot out of the article. Good. My definition of car control is much broader, and more challenging, than being comfortable in oversteer.
But saying that driving a high grip ("yaw sensitive") car doesn't require car control is 100% BS.

I could support a discussion that threshold braking is more important than being comfortable with oversteer (as defined by the author). And threshold braking is certainly a type of car control, but it obviously doesn't matter to some.

Done.

[jimmypet]

I re-read the article, I will amend my statement to up to page 3 its all reasonably factual and I'd agree with some of it.
The parts I disagree with is his views on what makes a fast driver and parts of his dissections of how to get there.
An example...

As a driver you can never focus on the negatives and ‘what-ifs’ and need to be maximizing your focus on driving fast and racecraft, so having the confidence and abilities to catch almost any slide from muscle memory and second nature that you would likely encounter is a key tool in the progress of improving your craft and will make you better, faster.

Maybe this is one of the dozens of reasons why I'm not a pro, but you have to focus on negatives, you are sharing the track with other drivers, if you are not constantly analyzing the consequences of everything you are doing now and about to do, the upsides and the downsides to both yourself and the drivers around you you become "that guy" who gets featured in everyones You Tube videos after the race weekend of "look at this asshole".
Be as fast as you can be and not do stupid shit that takes yourself or your fellow drivers out of a race.

I can't say as I am onboard with any of this:

HPDE events are not really very good either. During my own development (and sometimes even to this day), I have probably received more black flags for drifting in HPDE events than checkered flags. Well not really. Maybe. I’ve received black flags not for crashing or being dangerous, or even being around another car for that matter, but just for practicing driving beyond the limit. In their defense, the event organizers don’t know if the person sliding around is disciplined at practicing their craft or a complete wank that is being a hazard to themselves and others. Sliding around also does not set a great example for others who might try and imitate the sideways antics. Without the proper awareness, attitude, and skills, this could prove to be detrimental for themselves and the event organizers.

The reason why HPDE events are typically not good environments to practice car control in is because they are often set up to give people a safe environment to get off the streets and gain seat time driving their cars fast, where they won’t risk hurting others or crash their car. They are designed to maintain order and minimize risk without people getting out of control, running amok, and being dangerous. However, they are great ways to get solid seat time but the structure breeds the HPDE “Club Racing Mentality” and conservative processes that are not necessarily geared to teach or give an environment to really push the limit.

This structure creates under developed car control drivers who are often at a lower driving level, take longer to progress, and are often taught to brake in a straight line and turn-in to corners while on the throttle. Safe, and slow. The instruction also follows this structure and often isn’t the best place to take the ‘next step’ in driver development, which is great for professional one-on-one coaches like myself whose clients want to learn higher levels of driving that is beyond many ‘instructors’ at HPDE events who trade free seat time for their instructing. Some good drivers have come out of this background but they also start in the under developed phase.

Or any of this... This is the portion that I switched off and said this is horse shit:

While many can be helpful, you’ll always find arrogant ‘instructors’ out there, bullys of the playground who will slap the wrist of anyone who makes a mistake. Again, this could just be born out of the structure of the event to preserve themselves from issues or lawsuits, or it could stem from someone’s own personal vendetta, either way I believe that making mistakes shouldn’t have the consequences, arrogance, and punishment by instructors that I often see at some HPDE events. I believe that instructors should instead be offering constructive, supportive criticism and positive, beneficial remarks for the driver. Unless the person truly is a hazard, has a bad arrogant attitude of their own, and is out of hand and a true danger to themselves and others.

There will always be the guy (or two) who has no consideration for others and believes that chucking half their car off the track at turn-in, apex, and track out is the fast way around the track. This almost never is the fast way around the track and all it does is throw dirt all over the track and ruins the day for everyone. So it is a double-edged sword and I’ll have sympathy for the event organizer as well. Either way, be ready for a dismissive and belittling ‘talk’ as part of the journey and don’t let them scare you into under driving your car, but also don’t go back out there and spin again on the first lap.

Also, please don’t mention this article in your defense,

It seems to me he is exactly describing the behavior he says not to do. Me personally I think he steps on his own dick a lot in these two sections. I switched off during this portion and just wrote off the whole thing pretty much.

Also as Aeronaut posted he never ever even mentions braking which is in my experience as an instructor the skill that befuddles most everyone the most. He's all about the sliding the car portion of car control. That and just the general attitude of several portions didn't sit well with me as an instructive article (and I love reading articles and books about driving).

This also pretty much gave me a bad taste:

The instruction also follows this structure and often isn’t the best place to take the ‘next step’ in driver development, which is great for professional one-on-one coaches like myself whose clients want to learn higher levels of driving that is beyond many ‘instructors’ at HPDE events who trade free seat time for their instructing. Some good drivers have come out of this background but they also start in the under developed phase.

As in you "really" can't learn anything there unless you want to be under developed unless you hire a guy like me as a coach (forgetting about the hundreds of fast as all hell pro drivers that came from the DE system who I assume he also believes are underdeveloped).

[TheJuggernaut]

Maybe this is why I'm not a pro, but you have to focus on negatives, you are sharing the track with other drivers, if you are not constantly analyzing the consequences of everything you are doing now and about to do, the upsides and the downsides to both yourself and the drivers around you you become "that guy" who gets featured in everyones You Tube videos after the race weekend of "look at this asshole".
Be as fast as you can be and not do stupid shit that takes yourself or your fellow drivers out of a race.

Obviously I can't know what he meant but the way I read that is in reference to being able to override irrational fear, through logic, training and finally experience. Our brains still have a lot of self-preservation instincts which trigger fear in the face of no real danger, and it can put you in real danger because you react in a way that makes a recoverable situation become a catastrophic one. If you don't override these instincts, you will stay away from these conditions and if you encounter them unintentionally, you will be frozen or overreact due to panic. High speed oversteer is a good example of this which is why many people never train to handle it, and just hope it never happens. The first time I had a car step out on me in 4th gear through a turn, it was a major brown flag moment but through playing around in slower turns, my body did the right thing and on the outside it looked almost intentional. Ever since then, it doesn't pucker me nearly as much because I know for a fact I've got the programming. I'm still far from being comfortable with it but I can see that if I ever get to that point, I will truly be a dance partner for the car.

I think it's generally unfair to treat the whole article as the dude trying to sum up his comprehensive expression of everything it takes to be a good driver. It's a 5 page clickbait article (ie it should be a 2 page article). He's just writing about what he feels is the biggest step you ultimately take to differentiate the quick experienced driver from the expert.

[jimmypet]

Hey different people take different things away from various teachings / writings. I didn't take much away from that as you may have guessed. There was a lot of it I didn't like (or maybe agree with is better).
My favorite book on driving was written in 1971 so who am I to judge haha.