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Thread: ABS intermittent

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by aeronaut View Post
    My history with my ABS problem is complicated enough and long enough, that it wouldn't surprise me if I had 2 issues over the course of the problems. Likely a bad ABS pump AND the wrong sensor tip. I'll never know for sure.

    I don't know of a source for tips other than a new travel pedal sensor. If I needed a length I didn't have, I'd fab up something.

    I have Porsche Boxer S calipers on front, and OEM on rear. (95 M3)

    On track, these cars see a huge number of ABS cycles compared to the life of a normal car. We tax these systems pretty hard.

    I will also add, driving w/o ABS and with a balanced system front/rear (proportioning valve) VS with ABS, is like 2 different cars. I really enjoy driving the car w/o ABS. I have a track day tomorrow. I may try back to back session with and without ABS, and see time differential. That data analysis might be iteresting. My guess is ... w/o ABS, I'll apply brakes sooner with a longer ramp to max brake, but the max might be a little higher.
    I drove my car on track for over a year with a mostly nonfunctional ABS. Not sure if it's because of my BBK, but I found the E36 to do a poor job of delivering enough pedal feel to anticipate lockup though pedal feedback alone. I learned to find the limit purely through the sensation of deceleration.

    When comparing my data with ABS working vs not working, I could see that my peak negative g's were very similar in both cases, but it took me longer to get there with no ABS - as you said, braking sooner, softer and working up to the lockup threshold. Looking at time deltas in braking zones, the modified braking technique I was using in lieu of ABS had a significantly negative impact on lap times. I also found that having to pay very close attention to pedal pressure, deceleration and impending lockup (without ABS) increases the number of inputs you need to mentally process when trying to execute a perfect turn. And in the heat of battle you can still flat spot tires, which also sucks. For me, a working ABS is a huge plus on this car, even if the performance of the E36 system is less than stellar.

  2. #77
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    I recall that back when people used to race the E36 in ITS the class rules requirement of removing the ABS was viewed as a considerable liability.

  3. #78
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    (Moving my original post from yesterday within "E36 ABS Actuator - Rebuild Options?" as my problem seems to fit this thread more appropriately.
    Link to original post: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30070968)


    WOW aeronaut, seems this issue plagued you for a little while! Appreciate the hard work trying to diagnose and fix this! (Also thanks for the response on the other post.)

    After reading this entire thread, I dug into my history to find out when did my ABS fail. Some historical facts/conditions AFTER my ABS failed the first time:
    I noticed my FRONT STOCK PADS were worn. (Too bad I threw them out after changing them, as I don't recall how badly worn the front pads were. Rear stock pads were still fine with plenty of meat.)
    FIRST QUESTION:
    Would/could worn front stock pads have affected the amount of brake pedal travel to cause issues with the ABS failing, PRIOR to the brake wear sensors lighting up on the dash? I do remember specifically that my brake wear light NEVER lit up on the dash when the ABS failed. (The brake wear light is functioning as I detached the front driver sensor and it lit up.)
    _________________________________

    Currently...I am now on CarboTech XP10 pads on all four corners and I've since changed the Brake Pedal Travel Sensor (forgot to mention in the other post that I also did this), but yet the Intermittent ABS failure still persists.

    SECOND QUESTION:
    Should I experiment with the plastic tips from the Brake Pedal Travel Sensor first, OR replace the wires within the ABS pump first? (Bear in mind that the OBDII reading stated only a 145 code which indicates only the "PUMP/PUMP RELAY" but I already ruled out the relays after replacing both the ABS and ASC relays with new ones.)

    (Of note I installed the Brake Pedal Travel Sensor part number -34331182594-MFG9 from RMeuropean and it came with 4 plastic tips that seem to be different than the one described by aeronaut. I'm looking at them now while typing:
    - the SHORTEST plastic piece is the WHITE one;
    - next longer one is the GREEN one, which is the same color as the old one that I pulled out, thus, I used the GREEN one (I'm assuming this is correct for a '99 m3 as this was the old one.)
    - next longer one is the BLUE one
    - and the longest one is the RED one
    If I go with experimenting with these tips as a first option, which tip should I start with and subsequently progress with if need be?

    Appreciate any guidance!

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Projecte36m3 View Post

    (Of note I installed the Brake Pedal Travel Sensor part number -34331182594-MFG9 from RMeuropean and it came with 4 plastic tips that seem to be different than the one described by aeronaut. I'm looking at them now while typing:
    - the SHORTEST plastic piece is the WHITE one;
    - next longer one is the GREEN one, which is the same color as the old one that I pulled out, thus, I used the GREEN one (I'm assuming this is correct for a '99 m3 as this was the old one.)
    - next longer one is the BLUE one
    - and the longest one is the RED one
    If I go with experimenting with these tips as a first option, which tip should I start with and subsequently progress with if need be?

    Appreciate any guidance!
    Did you have any success by changing sensor tips? I thought I had my ABS problems whipped when I changed the hydraulic actuator and did a couple short events with no wheel lockup. On my third event I started having overheating (turned out to be a leaky head gasket), so I just got back to driving the car in earnest. Did One full event with no ABS problems and then I started having the same problem as before - right front wheel lock up.

    At this point I've changed everything except the ABS computer and the front calipers themselves. I'm going to give this sensor tip a try first. Like you, my car had a green tip and there are two other tips that came with the new sensor that are longer: blue one is very slightly longer and the red one is much longer. Which one did you try and how did it turn out for you?

    If I get no luck with the sensor tip, I will rebuild my front calipers (Stop Tech 332 big brake kit). I do have a spare ABS computer from another '99 and I can try that too.

    In the process of changing my hydraulic actuator I disassembled a few things that could easily have changed some small tolerances enough to have a similar effect as changing the tip of the pedal travel sensor. Hopefully this next round solves the problem.

  5. #80
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    So here's an update: This past weekend I replaced the pedal travel sensor with a new one and I also replaced the green tip/shim that was in place originally with a slightly longer blue tip. I drove the car for three 20-30 minute sessions, pounding the brakes in the 4-5 braking zones where I previously got the worst lockup. The ABS performed flawlessly. Conditions were cool - low 60's F - but there was plenty of sunshine the last session and the tarmac had some heat.

    Taking the old sensor off the car and checking it with an Ohmmeter, it showed the correct progression of resistance values, but who knows if there is anything intermittent inside. I may open it later and have a look. My problem definitely seemed to be heat related - the front right wheel would lock up only after a few hard laps. So far I've changed all four wheel sensors, both front wheel bearings and reluctor rings, the hydraulic actuator, and the ABS relays. Now I have a new pedal travel sensor and a longer sensor tip.

    When I previously changed the ABS hydraulic actuator my ABS problem disappeared for a couple events. However, I could never get the old actuator to fail during bench tests with a power supply after removal. When reading this thread it occurred to me that I disassembled enough things while changing the actuator (plus did a very deep fluid flush of the system) that I could have changed some small tolerance stack up to have suppressed the problem without actually fixing it. Hopefully this latest change nails it, but I've learned not to declare victory in the ABS war after one or two successful outings. I'll post any updates here if the problem reappears.

  6. #81
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    "but I've learned not to declare victory in the ABS war after one or two successful outings."

    That's an understatement! lol.

    Good luck!!

  7. #82
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    No real help from me, but after this happened.....



    I ripped the entire system out and replaced it with proper floor pedals and dedicated masters for front and rear. Was starting to have intermittent issues at the hillclimb previous to this event, which could've ended much much worse than this did. Couldn't really duplicate the issue or get a sense of what was causing it, but basically pedal would get hard and I would have no brakes, then they would work normally again. Or it would just pulsate. This would only happen every once in a while, and we race on some pretty bumpy surfaces so I didn't really give it too much thought. In this video I completely lost the brakes. Went for them at around 140, went into the grass at 90.

    Simply posted this as a warning. Take any issues with this system seriously.

  8. #83
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    Ice mode (rock hard pedal but very little deceleration and no wheel lockup)? Most E36 ABS failures that I've come across on this forum are cases of wheels locking up and flat spotting tires, usually caused by some type of hardware failure. Ice mode is a different failure mode that seems to be related to extremely sticky tires on a bumpy surface exceeding the logic of the ABS algorithm - or at least that's how it's presented on the Porsche forums (e.g., rennlist) where I've about it more frequently than here.

    Sorry to hear about the accident, but it sounds as if you have her back up and running.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbirch View Post
    Ice mode (rock hard pedal but very little deceleration and no wheel lockup)? Most E36 ABS failures that I've come across on this forum are cases of wheels locking up and flat spotting tires, usually caused by some type of hardware failure. Ice mode is a different failure mode that seems to be related to extremely sticky tires on a bumpy surface exceeding the logic of the ABS algorithm - or at least that's how it's presented on the Porsche forums (e.g., rennlist) where I've about it more frequently than here.

    Sorry to hear about the accident, but it sounds as if you have her back up and running.
    Yeah it was ice mode. Never really had an issue before this event, felt the pedal push back a few times, but nothing out of the norm. I really should have parked the car, pedal went hard a couple times on track (it was pretty bumpy) but didn't think much of it. Went for brakes and there was absolutely nothing.

    Car is still mostly down to the bare chassis. Had strut tower pulled back into place on a frame machine, (framerail was into interior) and ran the cage out to the strut towers. She will be ready for the '19 season.
    Last edited by Mark Aubele; 02-06-2019 at 04:40 PM.

  10. #85
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    Shen is bumpy, but the back straight after Big Ben isn't that bad. That's scary.

  11. #86
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    Still battling my ABS. So far I've changed the following: (1) ABS relays in fuse panel (new OEM) (2) Front wheel bearings (they needed to go anyway) and reluctor rings (new OEM) (3) All 4 wheel speed sensors (new OEM ATE sensors) (4) ABS hydraulic actuator (donor from a wrecked '99 M3 track car with working ABS) (5) Brake pedal travel sensor (new OEM) with two different tips (5) All four calipers (all four were in need of rebuild anyway), new Stoptech ST40 front/reconditioned OEM rear.

    Up until the last change (new calipers), I had a hard brake pedal, and the system would only begin to lock the front right after a full track session with lots of hard braking. After the first hard session, it would lock the front right with regularity in subsequent sessions. Just prior to the last event, I installed new/rebuilt front/rear calipers. I now have more pedal travel and a less firm pedal with the new calipers, and the lockup phenomenon seems more pronounced.

    The last element of the system that hasn't yet been changed is the ABS module. I have a spare module from another '99 M3 that I know was working in the donor car. I'll install that unit and test again at an upcoming track day. If that doesn't do it - I'm at a total loss for identifying the source of the problem. There will literally be nothing in the braking system that won't have been replaced.

    One question: My car came from Turner with Stoptech ST40 calipers up front and OEM rears.I've read on Turner's site that this caliper is "engineered to be compatible with your car." Can anyone think of a reason that this system would be imbalanced with OEM rears such that it would cause ABS failure? If it failed from day one I could accept that explanation. But my ABS system worked fine on track the first couple years with the same caliper setup. It started to have very intermittent lockups two years ago, and now they have become very frequent and pronounced. If mismatched calipers were the culprit, the problem should have been there from the outset. Any ideas would be appreciated.

  12. #87
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    I wish I could help more. But, here goes a thought based on my car and my limited experience with the ABS on my car.

    As a reminder, current setup on my car: Porsche front calipers, OEM rear, PFC08's all around, Wilwood brake bias valve installed prior to ABS pump/solenoids.
    The ABS problem I chased for over a year was 'fixed' by changing the tip length on the brake pedal travel sensor.

    Now for something that happened recently that may be similar to your problem.
    I adjusted the my brake bias valve for more rear bias, and I went a bit far on the adjustment. Ie, I had clearly added too much rear bias. And guess what, the ABS light comes on about mid-session. I moved bias towards front a touch, and haven't had a problem since. So, if true, there's ONE case that supports your thought that extreme brake bias mis-match may cause E36 ABS system to shut off.

    I'm convinced that the ABS computer uses all sorts of inputs to make decisions; brake pedal position, frequency of wheel lock up and which wheels don't lock up, vehicle speed, etc. And BMW didn't program for all the corner cases that a modified track car (especially with modern tires) experiences.

    Oh what we'd do with a flow chart of our ABS computer's software.

  13. #88
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    Thanks for the feedback. I'll call Turner to see if they can offer some insights on mixed caliper setups.

  14. #89
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    My GUESS is the Stoptech ST40's moved bias to the rear. And poof, same problem I created when I moved bias to rear with bias valve.
    But, oddly, it doesn't seem to be a common problem? Or, it's not commonly discussed on these here forums.
    Frustrating, I know. I'm still thinking about upgrading to E46 ABS system, but that isn't cheap.

  15. #90
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    I found this very informative post in a search last night:

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...5#post27541035

    I also confirmed from the vendor that the ST40 calipers with 38/42 piston sizes have been specifically engineered to preserve brake bias with OEM rears. Even so, a system that is sensitive to bias could behave badly due to tolerance variations.

    I'm going to try the replacement ABS computer - the last element in the braking system that hasn't already been changed - and will report back here. If I still have problems, I may just revert to stock front calipers and rotors to see if the problem goes away. I've literally been fighting this problem for 2 years. Had I known the fight would be this long, I might have opted for the MK60 from the outset.

  16. #91
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    Interesting. I quickly checked the math, and it looks right.
    All I have to say is, CRAP, ABS problems on these cars are turning out to be a real PIA.

  17. #92
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    Small update: Changed the ABS computer, used contact cleaner on the round connector on the ABS actuator pump and also went to staggered bake pads on the advice of several experts with whom I spoke (StopTech engineer, PFC engineer, BimmerWorld race tech and a BMW braking specialist who engineers MK60 conversions for race teams). I did an event today in extreme heat (low 90's F) and used the brakes aggressively for three 30 min sessions without getting any ABS lockup. Unfortunately my clutch went out so I didn't get to finish the day and won't be able to run tomorrow, but the three long sessions I ran today would have been more than enough to trigger lockup on my last outing.

    All of the experts with whom I spoke believed that I was having a brake bias issue between front and rear when the system gets hot. They suggested going to a rear pad with more initial bite than the front, so I ran PFC11's on the rear and PFC08's on the front. The StopTech engineer also suggested I modify my braking technique to always transition from a soft initial application to full hard in a ramp up fashion, rather than stabbing sharply at the pedal.

    I don't know which of these things (staggered pads, modified braking technique, new ABS computer or clean pump connector) improved the performance of the system today, or how long the improvement will last, but initial results are encouraging.

    I asked a friend to measure my caliper temperatures today as I came off track. After a cool down lap, the rears were slightly over 600F and the fronts were only 450F, possibly lending credence to the theory that brake bias changes as the front and rears move into different temperature regimes and the tires get a bit greasy with heat. I may look into some cooling scoops for the rears. I'm running Motul 660 brake fluid, but it seems as if the rears might be getting close to the limit of the fluid.

  18. #93
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    I wouldn't have thought your changes re bias were a real possible fix, until I had my ABS shut off after I changed bias 'too much' (with bias valve), then after resetting bias into a reasonable range, no ABS issue's since.

    These ABS computers are whacky. lol.

  19. #94
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    Update – Kind of a long post, but others may benefit: I think my mechanic may have finally isolated my ABS problem. Until his recent fix, I could get the system to lock up after 5-6 hard stops from 50 MPH. I couldn’t get it to lock after dozens of hard stops today, and for the first time a component we took out of the system tests bad on the bench. So fingers crossed we have it solved for good.

    My car is a ’99 with ASC. A couple years ago another mechanic removed the secondary throttle body to install the Euro intake tube. I read all the threads stating that was okay to do as long as you leave the actuator motor for the 2nd throttle connected. That’s what we did and the system worked fine for a couple weekends after that change. Then it started failing very intermittently, getting progressively worse over a two year period. At several points along the way I made changes that seemed to work for a day or two or three, but the problem would then reappear.

    Well, it turns out the actuator motor for my 2nd throttle was defective. Upon shaking it, I can feel internal parts clunking around. What’s worse is that it will measure around 9 Ohms input resistance holding it in one position and as you move it around the resistance will vary from 200 Ohms all the way down to 1 Ohm. So it fails the 10 Ohm spec. My mechanic installed a 10 Ohm fixed resistor and performance is rock solid so far. After changing nearly every other part in the system, this is the first part I’ve removed that I can confirm to be defective during bench tests.

    Looking back at the entire saga, here is what I think was happening. My brakes would only lock up after many hard triggers of the ABS. When my mechanic tried scanning for errors after this lockup failure, the ABS module wouldn’t even communicate at all. He found a clever way to partially cycle power and read the code indicating an ACS actuator failure. I think the system must try to actuate the 2nd throttle flap during hard ABS activations. After so many of those actuations, my defective actuator motor moved to a position that dropped its resistance down to a very low value, perhaps overloading something that put the entire ABS module into an error state. Either that, or the ABS keeps looking for 10 Ohms and triggers an error when the resistance goes out of range.

    So why did some of the prior changes seem to improve things temporarily? I think that was because a few of those changes caused me to remove the actuator motor from the car to make room to get to other components I was erroneously swapping out. In moving/unplugging/replugging that motor, I may have been jostling the internals into a more favorable orientation, causing it to work for a while.

    It will be interesting to see what I get when racing starts up again next month. I feel somewhat optimistic that we have it nailed this time because I can see the failure in the part my mechanic removed. If it works, I have all the parts I needlessly removed available as spares, literally everything in the braking system, apart from the booster.

  20. #95
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    Wow, good luck, hope that was it!

  21. #96
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbirch View Post
    My mechanic installed a 10 Ohm fixed resistor and performance is rock solid so far.
    Kudos to your mechanic for knowing about, or knowing how to find out about, the 10 ohm resistor substitution trick for removing the secondary throttle actuator. This does work.

    Note you should be using about a 10 watt rated resistor, which is why I still have 9 of these lying around: https://www.amazon.com/Tegg-Resistor...s%2C149&sr=8-3

    And thanks for posting your solution.

    Neil

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Kudos to your mechanic for knowing about, or knowing how to find out about, the 10 ohm resistor substitution trick for removing the secondary throttle actuator. This does work.

    Note you should be using about a 10 watt rated resistor, which is why I still have 9 of these lying around: https://www.amazon.com/Tegg-Resistor...s%2C149&sr=8-3

    And thanks for posting your solution.

    Neil
    I had a 25W resistor handy, so we went with that. Although we've known for some time that a resistor could be substituted for the actual motor, what I learned was this: If you leave the actual motor in place and the system passes the 10 Ohm test at startup, it can still fail after multiple ABS actuation cycles and then return to being "good" again during the next startup sequence. Knowing this, I would advocate that anyone who removes the ACS 2nd throttle body replace the actuator motor with a resistor, even if the motor seems to be fine. It removes one possible failure mode from the system.

    I'm happy to post my results here as payback for the guys like you who have contributed so much to the general knowledgebase for these cars. I will also post some follow up results after my next 1 or 2 full track weekends.
    Last edited by fbirch; 12-16-2019 at 10:56 AM.

  23. #98
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by fbirch View Post
    I had a 25W resistor handy, so we went with that.
    Well that was lucky, but I imagine most people won't have one on hand. Continuous operation could in theory (I^2 R and all that) dissipate about 18 watts, but the actuator's duty cycle is very much intermittent, so you can get away with a lower power rating, possibly a lot lower. Since I had to buy the resistor anyway, I semi-arbitrarily chose 10 watts. The important thing is not to think that a typical ¼ or ½ watt electronic project resistor will be OK.

    Good call on the potential for actuator failure. For some while before getting around to the resistor I also ran with mine still attached but tied back out of the way. Now I"m very glad I fixed that.

    Neil
    Last edited by NeilM; 12-17-2019 at 09:04 AM.

  24. #99
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    Update: I completed the first race weekend since the resistor fix and ABS performance was solid all weekend. I really feel good that this change nailed it since no other parts of the braking system were touched and the problem had gotten bad enough (prior to the fix) that it would lock up within one hard lap.

    It took me about half of the first day to readjust my braking technique to a working ABS. There are places on the track where I needed to baby the brakes before, and it took a surprising amount of time to break myself of those habits. I owe my mechanic a big debt of gratitude for finally solving this problem. Thanks also to the folks on this thread for sharing their ideas and feedback.

  25. #100
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    Glad you got it all figured out and fixed.
    It is amazing how different you drive the same car with and without ABS.

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