E23 to put a bit more oomph in it step

[BenzoBimmer300]

Thinking about getting another e23. solid chassis, nice ride quality, and i like the looks.


Mostly been lurking the past year or so.

pondered a m70 in e23. Not trying to do a bunch of curves so "front heavy handling" is not a issue.

M6 motor sounds nice but do it bolt up to automatic? NO MANUAL! Now I know some find manual fun but me personally I find it annoying and about as far as away from fun as possible. yes I can drive stick. But dont like it. And the zf4 probably wont hold up well.


also thought about a turbo option, which seems best wuth this inline. but again, zf4hp22 being weak spot. yes yes sure some out there have a 600 hp beast with stock zf4 going on 200,000 miles and fine. yeaaah. not my luck. And the zf4hp24 may not bolt up.

but there is word from.this forum that the hp24 guts may tranfer over. Then contradiction post saying it may not. Plus outside 745i, stock, any actual examples of turbo set up on m30 that dont sound like weedwacker and lumpy loud idle? Now in theory i think a turbo set up, once zf4hp22 part is sorted out, would work wonders. But price vs just dropping in m70 and calling it a day for basically about same amount of power is the kicker.


On paper, for a smooth highway cruiser, with no fuss and bit more get up than stock, the m70 with zfhp24 tran look like better option. (dont worry about wiring, I can do that). Yet a good sorted inline turbo seems better especially with tuning capability once sorted.


Any one have any actual experience with one or the other or both? Pros, cons? Kinks? e23, e28, e24? even e30? Again not looking to build a loud obnoxious machine. A highway cruise with a tad more oomph. Smooth, quiet. no manual.

thanks.

[Hit Man X]

I owned an M70 car for seven years, it always needs care. More trouble than they are worth for the modest power, besides they are quite wide. For the modest 300hp/330tq they make, you can easily do that with a non IC turbo kit from TCD. Hell, I have brought my K27 system into the 21st century with a larger, billet compressor wheel and a drop in Tial conversion wastegate built on the OEM base.

The V12s also have dual ECUs, electric throttle bodies (you would have to retrofit the throttle pot actuator...), and more.

M70 takes its own bell housing, you can swap the M30 (small or medium) over to that 4HP24 with the large bell. 4HP24 guts 100% drop in on a build, I have built two 4HP22/24 hybrids now. One is in my 10/84 and other was sold. The HP24 pump and HP24 A clutch assembly are about 1/2" too long to use the M30 style torque converter. I am trying to find a converter that will fit the 745i bellhousing, different than the standard M30 unit), that also fits the HP24. I believe a late '90s Jag I6 unit works. In addition to the aforementioned issue, you would have to slot the crossmember for the extra length and shorten the driveshaft possibly. I would only use the HP24 front end if you planned extreme power and I have not even figured it out fully yet.

[XAlt]

M88\S38 motor should also take a 3HP\4HP as that's what they used in the early ZA 745. N/A it'll probably hold up, and that gives you time to put in some 4HP24 bits.

There's an E34 M5 that had it swapped and was on CL for pennies.


http://bringatrailer.com/2016/07/15/...p-1991-bmw-m5/

[BenzoBimmer300]

thanks for the info.


300 is even relatively good compared to 181 or 182 hp.

how well to do the m88/S38 takes to forced induction? Although the m88/s38vare known as "screamers" aka high revs to get most out of them (relatively). And how smooth should a m88/s38 run? Cant remember when they were new and the ones I came across, mostly "tuned" quite frankly idled like crap. Although I suspect the poor idling is due to someone not exactly tuning it properly and not exactly character of the motor.

[Hit Man X]

Torque is the key figure that pushes you forward to accelerate. The S38 does not excel there compared to a turbo M30. They are 40-50tq less and the peak is quite a bit higher. BMW rated the M106 at 280tq @ 2200rpm...I find it hard to believe the vehicle makes peak torque at 2200rpm. Stock or modified, from any I have driven. Seems more like 3500rpm area for torque peak.

S38s are going to be far more expensive to acquire than an M70, along with equally expensive upkeep.

No clue how they respond to boost. Being at 9:1 static compression, they would probably be fine. Anything you would have to do would be custom and not cheap.

[XAlt]

Torque is the key figure that pushes you forward to accelerate. The S38 does not excel there compared to a turbo M30. They are 40-50tq less and the peak is quite a bit higher. BMW rated the M106 at 280tq @ 2200rpm...I find it hard to believe the vehicle makes peak torque at 2200rpm. Stock or modified, from any I have driven. Seems more like 3500rpm area for torque peak.

S38s are going to be far more expensive to acquire than an M70, along with equally expensive upkeep.

No clue how they respond to boost. Being at 9:1 static compression, they would probably be fine. Anything you would have to do would be custom and not cheap.

They take boost like absolute champs, and they're basically like a JZ that's had a beer or two in that regard. The only real documented weakness was the timing chain tensioner (later addressed) and otherwise it's another case of adjust your valves and have fun until something breaks, at least in the NA state. I think I'd prefer working on it over the M70 (I practically daily a 750iL, and it's been pretty solid) as it's an M30 with some really nice heads after all.

A search on youtube end up with these screaming monsters. These swaps seem to be preferred in Europe, whereas here the M\S52 is the workhorse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZEF...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRppQnSMrM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qKtBPXjniI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdXi33qeLk
https://youtu.be/rYkk0iReIiY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vSnjXcy4Ao

[XAlt]

There's an owner of an M88 Auto 745 on this board, so he should be able to tell us some more about his experiences. I've only driven a 3.8 M5 NA for a grand total of about 25 minutes, but I can confirm they go ballistic at around 3500.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2316277-Newbie-with-South-African-M7&p=29443120#post29443120

[Hit Man X]

They take boost like absolute champs, and they're basically like a JZ that's had a beer or two in that regard. The only real documented weakness was the timing chain tensioner (later addressed) and otherwise it's another case of adjust your valves and have fun until something breaks, at least in the NA state. I think I'd prefer working on it over the M70 (I practically daily a 750iL, and it's been pretty solid) as it's an M30 with some really nice heads after all.

A search on youtube end up with these screaming monsters. These swaps seem to be preferred in Europe, whereas here the M\S52 is the workhorse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZEF...eature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSRppQnSMrM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qKtBPXjniI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIdXi33qeLk
https://youtu.be/rYkk0iReIiY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vSnjXcy4Ao

I figured as much with the four valve head. Thanks for the videos. I would rather work on an S38 than the M70 again. DOHC does not scare me and is not that complex. I am plenty proficient with the M70, just took so long to remove key items to gain access to simple items like spark plugs. Once it began to consume oil bad on the passenger bank, I threw in the towel.

Mine was 100% reliable, as long as maintained. I suppose like any vehicle.

[XAlt]

I guess it's down to budget then.

By the way OP, the stock 3.8s and 3.6s I see idle smooth with the standard BMW sewing machine noise.

[GazM3]

Engine conversions are always messy. Even with an m88/3 or s38 will give pain with the accessories.
Either building up a stout m30 or turbocharging makes most sence. Have a look at the gearing also. The std diff is pretty tall and the e23 uses a unique 4spd auto with a very tall first gear. Progress from a standing start is painfully slow. Changing to a 3.73:1 diff and an auto/m30b35 from the e34 would be a great base.

If engine swapping id look at the plentiful and underrated m60b40 v8. Cheap to aquir, lighter than the m30 and u get a 5spd auto or a 6spd manual as transmission options. It's easy to get one of these engines to make over 300bhp just with a few bolt on mods and a good dudmd chip.

[XAlt]

Engine conversions are always messy. Even with an m88/3 or s38 will give pain with the accessories.
Either building up a stout m30 or turbocharging makes most sence. Have a look at the gearing also. The std diff is pretty tall and the e23 uses a unique 4spd auto with a very tall first gear. Progress from a standing start is painfully slow. Changing to a 3.73:1 diff and an auto/m30b35 from the e34 would be a great base.

If engine swapping id look at the plentiful and underrated m60b40 v8. Cheap to aquir, lighter than the m30 and u get a 5spd auto or a 6spd manual as transmission options. It's easy to get one of these engines to make over 300bhp just with a few bolt on mods and a good dudmd chip.

It's basically a 300hp engine off the factory line in 4L guise, and they cost pennies. Plus the 5HP30 takes a ridiculous amount of HP if he wants boost them to death.

M60B44"M61" doesn't sound like a bad idea either.

[Hit Man X]

Any pictures of an M60 swap into an E23?

[XAlt]

Any pictures of an M60 swap into an E23?

It seems to have been done on a couple E24s.

[GazM3]

Done on some e28's also. And e30s.
Very underrated engine

[XAlt]

Done on some e28's also. And e30s.
Very underrated engine

Torque for days and bulletproof but you pay hard for every bit of extra HP.

[jbbush]

Please allow some musings on this from a guy who has spent way too much time thinking about how to stuff a BMW V12 into an E23 chassis.

But first, here is a thread from a guy in Norway who put an M60B30 into a 732i.

http://e23forum.diskusjonsforum.no/e...0-0-asc-0.html

Chrome seems to automatically translate it for me, but your mileage (and browser experience) may vary. Having a 90-degree V, the M60 is a wide motor. You can see in his build he had to move the brake master cylinder over to the mounting position normally reserved for a clutch master, and he seems to have swapped steering boxes as well. All that said, I think the BMW V12 – being a 60-degree V – would slide in a whole lot easier (if not actually easily).

https://totallythatstupid.com/2013/0...my-next-trick/

I wrote the above blog entry roughly four years ago, and have learned a few things since.

First, I wouldn't necessarily use an M73B54 V12, at least not initially. No, I would start with an M70B50 as proof of concept, and then later build an M70/M73 “hybrid" motor as detailed by Wokke in the 8 Series forum, and possibly by others. Being a relatively simple motor in either format (no VANOS or Valvetronic), I would still easily be able to run aftermarket fuel injection control, like MegaSquirt. I have a good idea how to adapt M30B35 mechanical throttle bodies to M70/M73 intakes, including running a linkage to synchronize them.

The second thing that has happened in the last four years is the relative availability of transmission bellhousing adapter plates, allowing the use of 5- and 6-speed manual gearboxes other than the “correct” BMW S6S 560G (Getrag Type D). While I understand the OP is looking for an automatic solution, I most certainly am not. I’ve been in contact with these folks in Poland who make not only bellhousing adapter plates but also the flywheel spacers.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/pmc_tuning/m.html

They’ve sent me a large file of photos illustrating how you “split” a dual-mass flywheel and install their spacer between the two pieces. This maintains the starter ring gear location but moves the flywheel’s clutch interface rearward by the same distance as the width of the adapter. You lose the dual-mass guts, of course. It’s actually quite clever, though I’m not sure how balanced the flywheel assembly comes out in the end. Guess you’d have to maintain the orientation of the two flywheel halves when installing the spacer and then hope for the best. Before all that, of course, you’d need to figure out just how much transmission an E23 tunnel can accept.

That’s all I have right now, certainly more theory that practice. Time and treasure dictate focusing elsewhere right now, but someday I’d like to know if this actually works.

[XAlt]

I'm axnxiously waiting on somebody to install adapter plates as well.

[skeeternohustle]

Any updates on installing the M60B30 engine in a E23 ?

[XAlt]

Take note that old M30 and M106 can indeed use the 24 valve S38 head as seen here, valve reliefs would also have to be cut onto the existing pistons. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e34...s-benefit.html


There seems to be a large wave of them dropping on ebay, so cheap(er) swaps might be a possibility.