Vibration on steering wheel

[Alboz86]

Hi guys,
530xd 2009 LCI E60
Bare with me about this issue i'm having..
So 6 months ago i changed my rotors front and pads due to wear.
Now after a few weeks it started shaking in the steering wheel.. Now i started to think it was "warped rotors" so i changed them again... Now it came back, same problem.
Saw some posts online about the thrust-arm, so i changed that to(brand new oem).

After that the shake was still there, now that started to piss me off, so i thought it was the struts and wheel bearing, changed them too, also changed wishbone on both sides.. (all a side i did also alligment 3 times, different shops).

Here are the list och new parts i replaced:
Thrustarm/tension arm both front side
Wishbone both sides
Wheel bearing both sides
3 sets of rotors and pads (ATE and zimmerman)
Both front struts with dampers
Bleeded the brakes (all 4)
Changed right front caliper(feels like vibration is coming from front passanger side)
And rear struts due to leak.

Soooo i dont wanna get beaten by this car and i'm not going to give up but guys i need some rly good tips. ..

My two indi that i take my car to says its the thrust-arm, but still i got this f***** vibration.

And this happens ONLY when i kind of soft brake from say 70-90 isch to 20. But when i press hard on the brake i dont get any vibration at all... Also, no vibration at all at the brake pedal.

Both vinter and summer tyres are premium and only has like 300mils on them (balanced 2 times)
No vibration on the seat...

Only thing i can think of is maybe, inner and outer tie rods, but the feel firm and good.

Any clue guys?
Maybe i can upload a video for demo?

[bmwdirtracer]

You've given a very well-written post. I very recently had an almost identical issue, on my own M5....and it was driving me crazy! To make it worse, I had only a couple of weeks left, before the car has to be used for teaching, on Virginia International Raceway.

I replaced one caliper, and rebuilt the other (because they say "M", they are $450 each. Only the right one was sticking, just a bit, on the lift (hoist). The left didn't stick at all, but I rebuilt it, after seeing brake temperatures 30 degrees F (~20C) hotter on that side, after replacing the right caliper. And the steering still shook, under braking, and sometimes, when just driving....up a hill, down a hill, but especially under light to medium braking. All 4 front control arms are brand new. Spinning the wheels on the car or on the balancing machine showed that there were very slight bends in the wheels -- but not enough to make the tire wiggle at all, when spinning. Besides - the shaking was erratic - and a bent wheel would make a CONSTANT shake, and not especially while braking. (Like you, my vibration went away when I braked hard.)

I pried, with a huge pry-bar, time after time, while on the lift, at everything involved in suspension and steering. NOTHING was loose; the control arm bushings had been tightened under load, (as they must be !!), and they were perfect, and brand new.

(Your bushing bolts WERE tightened while the suspension was fully loaded to normal ride height, I trust? I can't tell you how many mechanics I've met that don't know this is crucial.)

And then, in great frustration, I did the one thing I knew wouldn't fix the shaking....but it was the one thing I knew that was wrong. I had all the wheels straightened professionally. And, PRESTO, no more vibration. My theory (hindsight is 20/20) is that although each wheel was bent a TINY amount, not even enough to make the tire wiggle while spinning it, UNDER LOAD, especially braking load, those imperfections became very important, and when they coincided, between both wheels, (or maybe all 4?), the car became almost undriveable.

There are, literally, at least a dozen different things which might be causing your vibration.

The other caliper is suspect; you should check temperatures of both calipers with an infrared temp gun, after coasting to a stop. If the thrust arms were installed by anyone besides an excellent BMW pro, you should have the bushing bolts released, then the suspension compressed to normal ride height, then retighten those bolts.

By the way, rotors don't warp. They do, however, "heat-check". Which is to say that if you bring the car to a halt when the brakes are hot, you deposit an excess of brake pad material on one spot. This spot then drags slightly, every revolution of the wheel, which makes it exceedingly hot. And THIS changes the metallurgy of the brake rotor in that spot, from iron, to something called "Cementite". Effectively, it's exactly the same as what many mechanics call a "warped rotor"....but you see, cutting the rotor doesn't make it go away, because the metallurgy is changed.

I know, everyone thinks brake rotors warp....read this:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

The fact that you get no pulsation of the brake pedal indicates to me that the brakes aren't really the issue. That said, I have been wrong many times before. It cost me $300 to straighten all 4 wheels professionally....best damned $300 I ever spent!

[jclausen]

Use factory bmw rotors and pads

[Alboz86]

Well first of all thank you for your time.

I did tighten the thrustarm on load with a jack, so they are all good (i think) and for the bent rims that you wrote about,

I have both winter 17" oem and 18 oem with 245/40 tyres on... I do get the vibs on both sets, so i tried my friends (brand new rims) still it shook... I'm going to inspect more with a heatgun and maybe try clean and grease the calipers a bit more.. Dont think that will do any help though...

And for the "oem" rotors and pads.
ATE are oem made for bmw, if you read the marks on the caliper (e60, not m5) you can see that it says ATE.
The same goes with zimmerman, has been main supplyer for bmw a long time.

Thank you all

[jclausen]

Oem is oem not ate

[Alboz86]

You know the only difference is the package right? They come from the same factory.

[bmwdirtracer]

Well, okay, let me disagree with both of you. I'm always disagreeable anyway.

"OE" and "OEM" are different. Ate absolutely makes the calipers, and I absolutely consider Ate parts to be the equal of the same parts, coming in a BMW white box. HOWEVER: The fact is that if the part carries a BMWRoundel, it actually DOES have to meet stricter standards. For instance, a Bosch fuel injector in a Bosch box has to be accurate within 10%. If that injector has a BMW part number on it, it has to be accurate within 2%.

"OE" means "Original Equipment". "OEM" means "Original Equipment Manufacturer". One comes in a box with a BMW label on it, one doesn't. Ate is absolutely one of the most perfect BMW suppliers. However, I have never seen Zimmerman listed as an OEM supplier. Now, please don't get me wrong: Zimmerman makes great stuff. I trust them.

Let's say this: I trust a part in a Zimmerman box more than I trust a part in a Febi/bilstein box. Febi's an OEM supplier. But yet, much of their stuff is made in China......well, EXCEPT the Febi stuff that comes in a BMW white box -- THAT is made in Europe.

Personally, I'll judge each name brand separately.

Meyle's rotors are made in China, and I trust them. StopTech's rotors are made in China, and I do NOT trust them , because they've been bent, 50% of the time I ordered them. (Never again) Zimmerman's rotors are generally made in the free world,\; I've installed them maybe 500 times, and only had them be bent, at installation, just once. I've never seen a Zimmerman part in a BMW box.

Ate is absolutely OEM; they've made brakes for BMW's, including my M5, for many decades, and they are the best. That Ate emblem is right next to the ///M, on my brand new caliper, from BMW, in a BMW box.

Just my 2 cents, guys....someone has to be disagreeable. and Donald wasn't available.

[jclausen]

if you want your brakes not to warp, squeak or have a wooden pedal feel then use only factory brake parts, not ate , Zimmerman or other shit parts. You can waste your valuable time and money trying to figure out why your front end is shaking and your bushings are toast. When all along it started with those crappy aftermarket brake parts. Who knows what where house they come from, if they didn't come from BMW there not factory

[Alboz86]

Well, okay, let me disagree with both of you. I'm always disagreeable anyway.

"OE" and "OEM" are different. Ate absolutely makes the calipers, and I absolutely consider Ate parts to be the equal of the same parts, coming in a BMW white box. HOWEVER: The fact is that if the part carries a BMWRoundel, it actually DOES have to meet stricter standards. For instance, a Bosch fuel injector in a Bosch box has to be accurate within 10%. If that injector has a BMW part number on it, it has to be accurate within 2%.

"OE" means "Original Equipment". "OEM" means "Original Equipment Manufacturer". One comes in a box with a BMW label on it, one doesn't. Ate is absolutely one of the most perfect BMW suppliers. However, I have never seen Zimmerman listed as an OEM supplier. Now, please don't get me wrong: Zimmerman makes great stuff. I trust them.

Let's say this: I trust a part in a Zimmerman box more than I trust a part in a Febi/bilstein box. Febi's an OEM supplier. But yet, much of their stuff is made in China......well, EXCEPT the Febi stuff that comes in a BMW white box -- THAT is made in Europe.

Personally, I'll judge each name brand separately.

Meyle's rotors are made in China, and I trust them. StopTech's rotors are made in China, and I do NOT trust them , because they've been bent, 50% of the time I ordered them. (Never again) Zimmerman's rotors are generally made in the free world,\; I've installed them maybe 500 times, and only had them be bent, at installation, just once. I've never seen a Zimmerman part in a BMW box.

Ate is absolutely OEM; they've made brakes for BMW's, including my M5, for many decades, and they are the best. That Ate emblem is right next to the ///M, on my brand new caliper, from BMW, in a BMW box.

Just my 2 cents, guys....someone has to be disagreeable. and Donald wasn't available.

Thank you for your wise replay.

SO, i've got a set of ATE rotors thats brand new, maybe i should just buy the OEM pads and put them both in?
Or maybe, try to swap sides and clean more carefuly the hub before doing that?

Thanks again

- - - Updated - - -

Well, i can agree with you on that. But still, zimmerman and ate are not "crappy" stuff :/
I'm gonna give it a try and swap the sides before i buy OEM.

[Alboz86]

So guys, a fast update.
I took the rotors off and brushed everything.
It was quite much rost on the hub, and now the shake is less than it was before. But i did notice that the guidepins was all dry, and there was like "soft dirt" around them. I cleaned them, but did not have any silicone paste, so i'm gonna wait until monday so i can lubricate them. I'm now suspecting that its the guidepins that are making this "judder" shake or whatever i should call it.

Cuz now its rly better but its still the, and its like the brake judders when i soft brake...

Here is also a picture on the black spots/hots spots? Dunno what it is though..

https://ibb.co/iMvBdv

[MIKYZZ4]

A good simple rule of thumb for replacement parts is:
For electrical parts, particularly sensors, use ONLY Genuine BMW OE or OEM replacement parts.
For Mechanical parts, most QUALITY aftermarket manufacturers parts can work just as well as OE-OEM.
Quite simply-Electrical, Electronic parts=OE,OEM
Mechanical parts=afterMarket
IMHO, the code word regarding mechanical (brake) aftermarket parts is Quality,
If any aftermarket manufacturer can deliver parts comparable to, or better than OEM Quality,
then I have no qualms against their purchase.

[MIKYZZ4]

Just thought I'd add something concerning brake rotors,
over-torquing of wheel lugs/bolts is probably the major cause of most brake rotor warping symptoms,
due to excessive airtool settings. This is common with Honda rotors, but I don't see why it shouldn't apply to all.
To all who have symptoms of warped rotors, try to notice the correlation of symptoms appearing,
to the last time the wheels were torqued down.

[parkerbot]

I would not drive the car if the guide pins aren't lubed. Unless you want to replace more parts when the pins heat up and seize. Just my $0.02.

[bmwdirtracer]

Um, sorry, my friend; that can't actually happen. Like you, I also insist on cleaning and lubing the guide pins: but you need to know that BMW says NOT to. The guide pins, in stock brakes can't possibly seize, because they live in a big mushy rubber bushing. Yes, they can stick, just a tiny bit, if they're not cleaned. (The grungy "soft dirt" found around guide pins is usually old anti-seize, which is why I try to use silicone brake grease, or Ceramilube.)

(Now, if you happen to use bronze race bushings for the guide pins, you need to lubricate them constantly, or they will absolutely seize.)

Alboz, I don't like the black spots on your rotors at all. Are you correctly bedding your new pads to the new rotors?

EDIT:
Here's the actual factory directions for rebuilding a caliper, unfortunately without pictures. Note the italics:

Conversion Calculator
2002 BMW M3 Coupe (E46) L6-3.2L (S54)
Vehicle » Brakes and Traction Control » Disc Brake System » Brake Caliper » Service and Repair » Overhauling Front Brake Caliper

Overhauling Front Brake Caliper

Note: Use repair kit.



Take off plastic caps (1).
Unscrew guide bolts (2).

Installation:
Only clean guide screws; do not grease. Check guide bolts, replace if necessary.
Guide Bolt

Wrench Size 7 mm 30 - 35 Nm



Dismantle brake caliper and remove brake linings.
Installation: Press brake lining fully outwards and insert spring (4).

Warning: In the following work step, large forces occur at the brake caliper piston (up to more than 2800 N!). Danger of injury!



Press out piston with compressed air applied through connection bore.
To protect piston, place a protective plate (e.g. hard wood or hard felt) in caliper recess.
Do not grip piston with fingers - risk of trapping!



Check guide sleeves (5), fitting repair-kit guide sleeve if necessary.



Remove sealing ring carefully with a plastic needle.
Clean cylinder bores and parts with alcohol and dry with compressed air.
Thoroughly inspect cylinder bore, piston and flange surfaces.
Machining of cylinders and pistons is not permitted.



Installation: Apply a light coat of Ate brake cylinder paste to cylinder bore, piston and sealing sleeve.
Install sealing cover in rear annular groove of cylinder bore.



Insert dust sleeve in front annular groove and press into annular groove over entire diameter.
Installation: Area between dust sleeve and brake caliper housing must be kept dry. It must not come into contact with Ate brake cylinder paste or brake fluid so as to ensure that the dust sleeve is perfectly seated.



Support brake piston with commercially available extension and socket and press gently onto dust sleeve.
Blow on sleeve with compressed air (max. 3 bar). Sleeve jumps over brake piston.
Installation: Coat dust sleeve and brake piston with brake fluid to facilitate installation of dust sleeve.

[Alboz86]

Thanks once again for helping me out.

I did learn it today that you should not grease the guidepins. And for the calipers, i did that a few months ago, they are fine...
Well, i just booked date to check the problem with BMW and see if they can find out whats the problem...
One question i got is, lets say bimmer says its the drive shaft or tierods, and they replace them but this vibration does not dissapear, should i pay full price or nothing? I mean, they should know 99% which part it is thats doing the vibs?

Peace and love

[parkerbot]

My apologies. Without having seen them apart myself, I assumed the disc brakes on BMWs operated the same as others I have seen where the metal guide pins riding inside metal holes on the caliper mounting bracket with a rubber dust shield/ boot. On my previous vehicle (non-BMW) I had my guide pins seize prompting me to have to buy a new caliper mounting bracket.

[Alboz86]

Thanks once again for helping me out.

I did learn it today that you should not grease the guidepins. And for the calipers, i did that a few months ago, they are fine...
Well, i just booked date to check the problem with BMW and see if they can find out whats the problem...
One question i got is, lets say bimmer says its the drive shaft or tierods, and they replace them but this vibration does not dissapear, should i pay full price or nothing? I mean, they should know 99% which part it is thats doing the vibs?

Peace and love

[bmwdirtracer]

No problems, parkerbot, my friend; your thoughts are right on the money.

And Alboz, I repeat: I DO grease the guidepins....and so does EVERY BMW tech and racer I know....in spite of BMW's guidelines. My disagreement was ONLY limited to the issue of "seizing" guidepins.

The driveshaft doesn't make the steering shake. It makes the whole car shake.

When you take the car to the dealership, or for that matter, any good BMW shop, you will pay for the service that they have done, whether or not it fixes your car's symptom. The tech, and the shop, will do the very best they can, to make sure that they make the correct diagnosis, in order to make you a happy customer. The more experienced the tech, the more likely he'll pick the right culprit. But PERFECT? Oh, HELL NO! We are NOT GOD.

If you don't think that you should pay anything, when the technician/shop makes their best, highly educated and researched estimation of the trouble, and installs parts and invests labor in the job, then fix the damned thing yourself. If I read what you just posted, I wouldn't TOUCH your car.

For your reference: I'm a pro BMW tech, been doing this for, oh, ~17 years. My personal car had misfires, after an engine swap. I did the most obvious things first, because these things fix the issue the vast majority of the time. That didn't work. I went a bit further, drawing on all my experience and wisdom. No go. I asked my boss, who's a Premier Master Porsche Tech, and my workmates, who are master technicians also. And I asked at this forum, where I have many friends who are exceptionally erudite BMW techs, either pro or DIY...but the very best. Several are BMW level 1 factory trained master techs.

And, after all that magnificent advice, and hundreds of hours of labor, and a sizeable chunk of cash. I went ahead and took a wild-assed guess, bought a used computer, sent it to another wonderful friend who makes computers dance, and he mated it to my car, and VOILA, the misfires were gone.

Here, you read the story: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...526-DME-Repair

You asked here for help. I told you the story of my OWN chase for a front-end vibration. I'm a pretty decent tech, with a lifetime of racing experience, too. Life isn't so simple as to say that well-trained people have to get it right, or you're just not going to pay them. You pay your money, and you take your chances.

Buy the best experience you can find, and trust that wisdom, and pay for it, with no illusions of infallibility.

Or, make your own guesses, if you prefer.

[Alboz86]

Once a gain.

Thank you,

So if i'm getting this right.
I should grease the guidpins with silicone?
And the black dots(shown on picture) that i have on the rotors are fading out.. They are more and more less visible.

About the drive shaft, i ment the cv joint, i dont know if i wrote on the post that i did change that becuse my wife hit a sidewalk and got the cv shaft (driver side) cracked.

[shadowpuck]

if a shop misdiagnoses a repair, i'd expect them to work with me on whatever it took to get the car repaired....
now, if i take the car in and tell them to replace the driveshaft and that doesn't fix the problem - i would expect to have to pay for whatever fixes the problem.

make sense?

yes, agreed - lightly lube the guide pins.

[Alboz86]

Well,

I booked a time on BMW for this issue, lets just hope they can crack down the problem. I just hope its not anything with the drive shaft, the cv joint or the hole hub. cuz that stuff aint cheap. Everything els is replaced... That i can think of.
You said that "i wouldn't touch" my car, can you laborate that? Do you mean cuz its gonna be hard to find the problem or its not safe to even drive?
Thank you chris!!

[bmwdirtracer]

No, sorry, Alboz, the reason I said "I wouldn't touch the car" after what you wrote is because you hinted at refusing to pay the bill, if the shop replaced what they suspected was wrong, and it didn't fix the vibration.

Shadowpuck is more correct, than the response I wrote: a shop which makes a misdiagnosis should "work with you on whatever it takes to get the car repaired". But you know, that works both ways -- you have to work with them, too. No matter how much experience a tech has, no matter how carefully he tests, examines, and researches, SOME problems just have too many possible answers to guarantee that the first, most likely response will fix it.

Now, that said, when I make a misdiagnosis, I feel that I OWE the customer a redoubling of my efforts. But, to use the two examples (my own car) which I've already invoked....where in there does anyone think I made a mistake? If it were a customer's car, for what should I apologize?



Okay, back to YOUR car, Alboz....because I DID make a mistake, there. I missed that your car was all wheel drive. Unfortunately, that just adds another couple of possibilities, and the choice gets more difficult. Halfshafts are a possibility, the front diff might be the culprit, or even the transfer case....but these last two items are less likely than what we've discussed previously, because you're feeling the vibration in the steering, not the seat of your pants.

Now, when the dealership puts the car up on a lift, shuts off the DSC, and restrains one or more wheels, and turns the steering wheel from side to side, they might just see a halfshaft/cv joint shaking up and down. Or not.

But what if they see a torn CV boot, and the joint is completely dry, but they don't see the halfshaft wobble? And what if they can't find any other visible sign of something that might cause your vibration? They'd have to replace the halfshaft, right?

Would you be pissed at the mechanic, if you still had a vibration, even though he'd only replaced a part that was provably bad, and was the most likely suspect, too?


Now, I personally like to bring the customer into the shop, with a situation like this, and show him what I've found, explain why I think he needs to replace that part, and even advise him that this might not be the answer, but that it's the failure which I have found. I will always replace the part I know is bad first. But if I do this, and give my best effort and judgement, and the vibration's still there, does my shop owe the customer a refund? Not in my book.

I'm not perfect. I'll gladly be judged by someone who is.

[Alboz86]

I agree,

They told me that they are going to do pretty much every test there is.
I'dont know about the culprit or transfer case, but i do feel small small vib when i drive on the highway, not on the pedals but just generell around the boot where u rest you fot. u cant barley notice it.
Also to day, as suspected i did notice that when i brake it feels like the brakes or the car is like jumping forward, like the brakes are getting grip and also realising superfast...hard to explain but it judders back and forward when i brake and get the shakes...

i know my eng is not the best...:/

peace

[Alboz86]

I was going to upload a video, so you might see a little when the steering wheel shakes when soft braking ... I do not know if I said this before, but I noticed today that you can hear and feel a slight buzzing/wobble noise down at the pedals, very little vibration, one hardly notice nothing (not on the pedals).

Hope its not the diff or cv joint, that stuff aint cheap to repair or replace.

I also noticed today that when I brake, it feels as if the car bounce forward slightly...or that the brakes get grip but releases the grip really really fast... But with hard brake, that never happens.

I just wish that i could bring my car to you so could check it out lol
Thanks Chris

Cheers!

[Alboz86]

I was going to upload a video, so you might see a little when the steering wheel shakes when soft braking ... I do not know if I said this before, but I noticed today that you can hear and feel a slight buzzing/wobble noise down at the pedals, very little vibration, one hardly notice nothing (not on the pedals).

I also noticed today that when I brake, it feels as if the car bounce forward slightly...or that the brakes get grip but releases the grip really really fast... But with hard brake, that never happens.

I just wish that i could bring my car to you so could check it out lol
Thanks Chris

Cheers!