E34 as a first car

[Layne]

Hey look there's one now

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/6062681986.html

[katit2]

I wouldn't count out the 535 or 540 just yet. M30's last till the end of time, and the M60 is a tank as well, even they tend to be leaky.

See, I had M62 already.
1st, it's for daughter, I don't need extra ponies for her.
2nd, I had my share of maintenance of V8 and I don't feel like doing it anymore. OTOH I did have M54 in wife's X5 and it was really nice to work on and essentially trouble-free


I like the idea of smaller more fuel-efficient engine for a kid. And more space to work around it. I think I6 cars drive better too.

[Layne]

See, I had M62 already.
1st, it's for daughter, I don't need extra ponies for her.
2nd, I had my share of maintenance of V8 and I don't feel like doing it anymore. OTOH I did have M54 in wife's X5 and it was really nice to work on and essentially trouble-free


I like the idea of smaller more fuel-efficient engine for a kid. And more space to work around it. I think I6 cars drive better too.

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.

[katit2]

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.

M62: I did change chain guides around 170k(?) but only because I had to replace chain cover gaskets (leaks). This engine had 240k on it when I sold car. And it wasn't using any oil. But other than replacing chains, guides at 170k all leaks just got me. And it was hard to work around it. And it's X2 of everything. More coils, more spark plugs, more valve cover gaskets.

From top of my head - valley pan gasket - twice in my ownership, valve cover gaskets - 3x. Air leaks - intake gaskets. Oil pan leaking, seals leaking. Something else - don't remember, but list is long Nothing stopped car from being DD though. It never stopped.

M54 trouble-free because I didn't have much work in it. We got it with 40k and sold with 120k. Because of factory oil intervals when I got it - it was already using 1qt/1k. Other than that - in 80k I did only 3 things:
1. Cracked intake boot (cheap)
2. DISA flap (expensive but easy DIY)
3. Leaking oil pedestal (or whatever filter housing where it mounts to block) - worst one but cheap

In X5 there is plenty of space to work around.

Sold at 120k because I needed 3k+ to put into it right away. All suspension was shot and cooling needed overhaul

[XAlt]

All very valid points. Just a couple notes:

The M62 has a timing chain guide that puts that engine into the "POS" category. The M60 has a much better one and is thus not a POS. Other than that, they're pretty much exactly the same. All the plastic parts and rubber gaskets are pretty much the same on an M50 though, they're just easier to get to. The M30 has one advantage there, no plastic parts on the engine (still has plastic heater valves etc) and NO rubber gaskets. Nothing but good ol' fashioned asbestos (not really asbestos).

What year did you find the M54 to be trouble free? I wouldn't consider that to be true currently. In fact I think it's dangerously close to that POS category, and not at all easy to work on when it's installed in an E46. Luckily, everything wrong with the M54 was a later addition and the M50 doesn't have it. They are very solid.

None of them are really in the "POS" category. But really, I don't know why they tried doing the single row timing chain after learning what happened with the Mercedes M116 and their own S38...

Anyways, the old vid of an M60B30 filled with liquid glass in the crankcase.

[katit2]

I wouldn't count out the 535 or 540 just yet. M30's last till the end of time, and the M60 is a tank as well, even they tend to be leaky.

Agree. M30 is good idea. So it's 525 or 535

[AHenry014]

I wouldnt count out the non-vanos m50 in the 91-92 cars. There is absolutely nothing wrong with them, essentially being a simpler engine than its vanos younger brother. The ZF 5spd trans behind the m50nv is often considered more robust than its getrag counterpart behind the m50tu.

On the other hand, the early cars rarely featured traction control, but often had a LSD. The later cars were more probable to find an open diff and traction control, which might be more beneficial to a young driver.

[katit2]

So it sounds like any I6 will do. Just need to find good condition. With this age difference between 90 and 95 will not be as important as condition..

[XAlt]

So it sounds like any I6 will do. Just need to find good condition. With this age difference between 90 and 95 will not be as important as condition..

Skip the M20.

[AHenry014]

Skip the M20.

This. '91 minimum with the m50.

[katit2]

I'm back. Think I found all original 94' 525i. 98k miles. Good color combo. The only problem it's auto.
How much car likd this should cost? Current owner doesn't have any records but overall condition matches woth mileage. CA car with no rust at all.

i figured I can always find dead manual for <$1k and do a swap. But I think it might be even better to teach my daughter on auto.

thoughts?

[sbeckman7]

Maybe 4-4500 if it's really clean and mechanically sound? I would get any car inspected by a mechanic if you're really planning on buying it.

P.S. My first car was the red 1989 535i 5 speed seen below and I still have it 7 years later. It was a fantastic first car for me, as someone who loves cars in general, and I can tell you that a well cared for E34 has all the traits of quality, safety, and reliability you're looking for. I average about 18mpg with the 3.5L engine but I don't like to shift before I have to if you know what I mean

[moroza]

I'm back. Think I found all original 94' 525i. 98k miles. Good color combo. The only problem it's auto.
How much car likd this should cost? Current owner doesn't have any records but overall condition matches woth mileage. CA car with no rust at all.

i figured I can always find dead manual for <$1k and do a swap. But I think it might be even better to teach my daughter on auto.

thoughts?

My opinion is that I would not recommend an E34 for a first car. First cars should be 1. moderately-powered, because young drivers, 2. front-wheel drive, because they're easier to not stuff ass-first into things, especially in the winter, 3a. tin cans, for no false sense of security, and 3b. tin cans, for proper later appreciation of refined cars. I loathe electronic nannies so much that I rewired/deleted the ASC on mine, but I can see how it'd be useful for a novice to get a warning light when they just did something that, if not for the nanny, would have ruined their day, their car, or worse.

I'm also a die-hard manual driver, but if this is a true beginner we're talking about - if we're still in the cones-in-a-parking-lot phase - an automatic is an easier learning curve and, depending on her personality, may encourage gradual car enthusiasm rather than scaring her off. If she's graduated to driving with traffic and has a basic grasp of pedal and steeringwheel technique, go for the manual for reasons you previously stated.

No US-spec E34 is going to be economical, that is, better than 25mpg in mixed driving. They're all pretty reliable IF MAINTAINED (and honestly, not as dreadful as some other German cars even if they have been neglected a bit). All will be easier to work on and with equal or better-quality parts compared to your E39. 535i sucks gas (mine did ~15 city, 22 highway, 18 combined). 540i sucks gas (my 544 does ~15 city, 24 highway, 20 combined, on premium) and is more power than a novice driver should have. 89-90 525i... no personal experience but I'd consider it. About 140hp in a 3500# car. Just be aware that it's about the only BMW engine with a timing belt. 91-95 525i is the best all-around.

A manual swap is pretty easy. It's all plug-n-play, except for one wire that needs to be grounded to get rid of a TRANS PROGRAM message (which doesn't prevent the car from driving).

10 years ago, E34s with less than 100k seemed uncommon. Now, I see them popping up on a regular basis. I don't get it. But in any case, the years are a more decisive factor for the actual car's condition - and for the expense its maintenance will incur - than the mileage. Its maintenance history is in turn more important than that. Other than body/paint, mine with 265k on the clock is in better shape than most cars with half its age and mileage, but the initial build in late '09/early '10 was something like 1500 hours and well into five figures of dollars.

Side note on the M62: I've had mine for 7 years and 53k+ miles. In that time it's seen two coolant flushes, two sets of NGK sparkplugs, and five oil changes, all top-shelf full-synthetic. It now has something like 210k on the original block, heads, and headgaskets. Every last seal except the headgaskets was replaced with Victor Reinz (OEM) parts when the engine was out dangling on a stand, as was the chain U-guide, which is an idiotic downgrade of the M60's idler gear. The upper timing cover gaskets were a PITA, requiring a special tool to clamp the covers down. I simulated the tool using a fat friend. One of these covers has had a very slow seep since day 1, and that's all this engine has ever leaked in my time with it. Oh, and the intake boot cracked in a few places (it came from a junkyard car anyway). My experience has been that if you seal them right the first time - perhaps every 100k? - M62s hold their liquor just fine.

[katit2]

I forgot about RWD. Been racing go karts since 10yo and can't stand FWD myself. Maybe winter tires and some training will help? I find RWD easier to drive.

My M62 was resealed once. But head cover gaskets 3 times, valley pan gasket 2 times. Sold at 230k with small dip from valve covers. Everything was done after I got car with 120k

[XAlt]

I learned on an Alfa 75 3L (gearbox in the back and enough horsepower) on garbage Italian mountain roads, teach your kid to deal with oversteer and they'll drive any car better.

That or you can find her an iX or some 5 banger Audi.

[Billyj]

Hey I'm just thinking out loud here but what about like an e39 528i. Might be a bit more complicated than the e34 but theyre really solid and not exactly fast. Steering and brakes are really well done on the e39...

On top of that you get a lot of airbags and a more modern alarm system+ much more aftermarket availability

One more note, I somewhat agree with moroza , probably easier to learn an auto then learn manual that's what I did and I fell in love.

Fwd is probably easier/safer to learn on, but... You get less control. If you're going to teach her how to initiate and break a power slide/drift then I think RWD is fine. If not get a fwd.

And lastly the tin can argument. If you give her a late 90s Ford taurus, she can destroy it with impunity (cause honestly who cares)
It's fwd
It's low on power
It won't get stolen
No false sense of safety


Now two years later help her get an old bimmer and she'll love it

[katit2]

Well. It's pretty much done deal, going to pick it up on Saturday. E39 is no go, I had one and also maybe it's more technologically advanced - I already repaired everything in E39 and not interested in doing it again I never had E34 and I want one so it is E34. If she doesn't like it - she can get her own car, I will keep it for myself as a companion to my F80.

I don't need aftermarket stuff and I don't need alarm system where I live. And yes, I will have whole year to teach her how to drive. Main thing I want to make sure she knows how to drive so she doesn't need to "know" how to control understeer...

[moroza]

Perhaps the single most important safety feature on a car is visibility (out of it). E34 is pretty good; E39 is not.

[Mykk]

I think an E34 would make for a great first vehicle. Sturdy, heavy, cruises smooth, comfy interior, plenty of room to move friends and stuff. I also think everyone should have a manual. Be sure to update that sound system for her :-)

[katit2]

How did you know?? First she asked if carr has AUX ) didn't know it's important. How bad stock audio really is? Just replacing speakers with fresh ones will do?

re: Manuals
I monitor all around, see when I started this topic? They all abused with tons of miles, rust, etc. I figured it's OK to learn driving on AUTO, if she likes it later I can always do swap

[XAlt]

How did you know?? First she asked if carr has AUX ) didn't know it's important. How bad stock audio really is? Just replacing speakers with fresh ones will do?

re: Manuals
I monitor all around, see when I started this topic? They all abused with tons of miles, rust, etc. I figured it's OK to learn driving on AUTO, if she likes it later I can always do swap

Quality is nothing to write home about but it's not particularly bad either, at least on the 32. Tape deck rigged to 3.5mm jack = win

Perhaps the single most important safety feature on a car is visibility (out of it). E34 is pretty good; E39 is not.

You well out of the E39, no real blind spot if you put an upside-down passenger mirror on the driver's end. Big windows are always a bonus though.

[moroza]

E34 stock audio is actually pretty good, though the bass is not up to modern standards. Supposedly, the speaker placement and "imaging" are really well thought-out. Even while driving, I hear details in music that don't show up on decent computer speakers, or headphones lesser than my Grado SR80's. I'm a musician but not an audiophile.

[XAlt]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel

[Billyj]

Speaking of well-thought out.

window controls on center console>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on the door panel

DUDE! So true... When I get in my e39 to drive it I love the steering but honestly my hand goes to the center console every time I want to roll down a window !

I honestly think the e34 is a better but less modern car. Everything about it (except maybe the hood) Is just planned so well

[katit2]

How can I put 3.5 jack on cassette deck? Any DIY?