Time to refresh clutch -- what else should I do while I have trans off?

[ben4bama]

Hint. If you plan on using that metal pivot pin for the clutch fork then I would recommend you drill a very small hole through it and install a grease fitting at the back. They may not break like the plastic pivot but when they dry out they squeak like a mf. Self-lubricating? maybe for wear but not for noise.

my plastic pivot pin squeaks in the e36 328 every time I press clutch pedal in. I went with brass on my M3 and so far no squeak.

[JitteryJoe]

It is a lot of work, more than a weekend if you have never done this before. The detent pins alone will take some time. You do need a lot of tools, generally more than a basic tool set.
For example, a slide hammer is useful for pulling the metal detent caps. Extra long socket extensions for removing transmission mounting bolts (like 3 feet worth). A transmission jack (HF has a cheap good one). 4 good jack stands (HF 6 ton are good and have a lot of height). Torque wrench of course.

[wintershade]

It is a lot of work, more than a weekend if you have never done this before.

Yeah -- looks like a lot more work than I initially realized, after spending some time this weekend reading and watching DIYs. I'm thinking I'll likely break this up over a couple FULL days (9am-8pm). I'm going to do it in a shop around here where you can rent commercial-grade work-space for the day (hydraulic lift, pneumatic tools, etc) with a pro mechanic on site who can help out if I get stuck. Given the complexity of the clutch in particular, seems like a good idea.

My biggest question at the moment is if there is a sensible way to group the work such that I'm not going in and out of the same places multiple times because ideally I'd like to be able to drive the car home after each day of work. For example, I'd like to drop the trans only once, and remove exhaust only once, etc.

For example, I was thinking:
- Day 1: Trans mounts, Guibo, CSB
- Day 2: Shifter rebuid, detents ??????
- Day 3: ???

As a reminder, here is what I'm planning to do:
-- Trans mounts
-- Trans and shifter seals (rear main, input and output shaft, shifter boot)
-- ECS lightweight flywheel and clutch/pressure plate (E34 M5) upgrade
-- Clutch release bearing
-- Clutch slave cylinder
-- Stainless steel clutch line upgrade
-- Misc clutch parts (including stainless Clutch fork pivot pin upgrade)
-- Guibo / Universal flex disc and center support bearing
-- Shifter rebuild (including AKG teflon bushing upgrade)
-- Transmission shift (detent pin) replacement
-- Transmission fluid replacement (obviously)

[tripitz]

I talked to my race shop. They said don't mess with the seals if they are bone dry (mine are!). They see a lot of DIY fails when it comes to seals. Everything else seems pretty straightforward. I'm doing my detents this week and then the whole thing goes back together (everything changed except the seals).

[ben4bama]

Yeah -- looks like a lot more work than I initially realized, after spending some time this weekend reading and watching DIYs. I'm thinking I'll likely break this up over a couple FULL days (9am-8pm). I'm going to do it in a shop around here where you can rent commercial-grade work-space for the day (hydraulic lift, pneumatic tools, etc) with a pro mechanic on site who can help out if I get stuck. Given the complexity of the clutch in particular, seems like a good idea.

My biggest question at the moment is if there is a sensible way to group the work such that I'm not going in and out of the same places multiple times because ideally I'd like to be able to drive the car home after each day of work. For example, I'd like to drop the trans only once, and remove exhaust only once, etc.

For example, I was thinking:
- Day 1: Trans mounts, Guibo, CSB
- Day 2: Shifter rebuid, detents ??????
- Day 3: ???

As a reminder, here is what I'm planning to do:
-- Trans mounts
-- Trans and shifter seals (rear main, input and output shaft, shifter boot)
-- ECS lightweight flywheel and clutch/pressure plate (E34 M5) upgrade
-- Clutch release bearing
-- Clutch slave cylinder
-- Stainless steel clutch line upgrade
-- Misc clutch parts (including stainless Clutch fork pivot pin upgrade)
-- Guibo / Universal flex disc and center support bearing
-- Shifter rebuild (including AKG teflon bushing upgrade)
-- Transmission shift (detent pin) replacement
-- Transmission fluid replacement (obviously)

don't forget to replace the pilot bearing. you'd need a puller for that. I'd also do a little research on SS vs brass pivot pin. from what I found the brass AKG is softer and lubricates better than the SS.
here's order I did mine in and it worked out good.
always use new bolts for flywheel, pressure plate, flex disc
drain trans fluid.
drop exhaust
drop DS
drop trans
drop PP, clutch, FW
replace starter
replace pilot bearing
replace rear main seal
install flywheel, clutch and pressure plate
@ trans remove fork, Pivot pin, TO bearing, guide tube
replace input shaft seal
replace detent bushings
install new guide tube, Pivot pin, fork, spring, TO bearing after lubing guide tube
replace output shifter shaft seal (don't skip doing this as they all leak)
replace shifter parts
replace trans mounts
install trans
hook up shifter
install DS with new guibo
install exhaust
fill with fresh Redline D4 ATF
crank and enjoy.

[emccallum]

https://webspace.ringling.edu/~dplas...hift_pins.html

Thought this might help on the detent spring replacement. IMO, the tools are a must. I bought a set (not OEM) from someone and they were not crazy expensive.

[wintershade]

don't forget to replace the pilot bearing. you'd need a puller for that. I'd also do a little research on SS vs brass pivot pin. from what I found the brass AKG is softer and lubricates better than the SS.
here's order I did mine in and it worked out good.
always use new bolts for flywheel, pressure plate, flex disc
drain trans fluid.
drop exhaust
drop DS
drop trans
drop PP, clutch, FW
replace starter
replace pilot bearing
replace rear main seal
install flywheel, clutch and pressure plate
@ trans remove fork, Pivot pin, TO bearing, guide tube
replace input shaft seal
replace detent bushings
install new guide tube, Pivot pin, fork, spring, TO bearing after lubing guide tube
replace output shifter shaft seal (don't skip doing this as they all leak)
replace shifter parts
replace trans mounts
install trans
hook up shifter
install DS with new guibo
install exhaust
fill with fresh Redline D4 ATF
crank and enjoy.

Awesome. Thanks for this ben4bama. Looking back on this -- do you think you could have broken up the work efficiently differently, where you did some of the other stuff 1st before dropping out the transmission? My concern is once the trans comes off, you have to do everthing. I'm hoping maybe there is one day's work I can do with the trans on first, and then bang the rest off in a weekend. But maybe that's not realistic or having the trans on makes everything so tight you may as well take it on and off twice....

[ben4bama]

Awesome. Thanks for this ben4bama. Looking back on this -- do you think you could have broken up the work efficiently differently, where you did some of the other stuff 1st before dropping out the transmission? My concern is once the trans comes off, you have to do everthing. I'm hoping maybe there is one day's work I can do with the trans on first, and then bang the rest off in a weekend. But maybe that's not realistic or having the trans on makes everything so tight you may as well take it on and off twice....

unfortunately, the only thing you can do with trans installed is drop exhaust, drain the fluid, disconnect the driveshaft, and drop in a SSK (shifter only) but if you're planning to replace other shift linkage parts (which I'd recommend) like carrier bushings (I'd recommend the delrin ones) then the bitch clip is so much easier to remove with trans on floor and you'll install all the rest of the linkage once trans is mounted back before connecting the DS. so...the only thing you can do on day one with trans installed still is drain fluid, drop exhaust, disconnect drive shaft and drop in a new SSK lever. Every thing else requires the trans to be on the floor. you can't get to detents with trans mounted.
if I only had 2 more days to do everything else it would probably be this below, but man, the first time I do something I take FOREVER because I'm so careful to get everything just right. I had to get help dropping the trans and putting trans back in place. everything else I did on my own. get all your torque values in one place before you start installing everything so you don't have to slow down to find them. should all be in the Bentley.
Day 2 could be
drop trans (1 hour to access all 9 bolts and carefully place on floor - either have a friend or a floor jack)
drop PP, clutch, FW (30 mins - be very very very careful not to strip any of the pressure plate hex bolts or you'll need a dremel to saw the head off the bolt and that isn't fun)
replace starter (1 hour )
replace pilot bearing (5 minutes)
replace rear main seal (30 minutes)
install flywheel, clutch and pressure plate ( 30 minutes-this is literally the quickest and easiest of the whole job!)
@ trans remove fork, Pivot pin, TO bearing, guide tube (15 mins)
replace input shaft seal (30 mins being carful with setting new seal - if you're replacing it)
replace detent bushings (1 hour for only 5th gear, 4 hours if doing all 5- this is where you'll spend some time figuring out how to get them out and put them in- I used my flywheel locking pin to install the 3 smaller bushings-. the 5th and reverse I had to rig up a way to tap them in slowly and evenly without the tool). if I were to do this again I would probably ONLY replace the 5th gear detent as that is the only one that was sticking.
install new guide tube, Pivot pin, fork, spring, TO bearing after lubing guide tube (1 hour)
replace output shifter shaft seal (1 hour- this bugger is a real pain to get out! takes a couple seconds to tap a new one in- don't skip doing this as they all leak)
keep in mind these estimates are aggressive for a newbie. it will likely take you more time than this. It took me longer because I am so careful and just like taking my time.

Day 3
replace shifter parts - 1 hour
replace trans mounts - 15 mins
install trans (1 hour) - be sure you use washers for every bolt. mine didn't have them so I got some.
install SSK and linkage to carrier, etc. - 1 - 2 hours
hookup DS with new guibo - 30 mins
install exhaust 30 mins
fill with fresh Redline D4 ATF 30 mins
crank and enjoy.

[emccallum]

All this assuming you don't have a snag like broken exhaust bolts, find out that motor mounts are bad, or someone sent you a wrong part. That could set you back hours to days. I have done these jobs several times. If you dont have time to do it right, when are you going to find time to do it again? Once you get tired, you start making mistakes and cutting corners. As Ben said the tranny detents take time and it isnt something you want to mess up. I did all of mine and it made a big difference in shifting. Figure out a way to be able to have the car down for several days to a week. Work on it 4-5 hours a night.

When I read Ben's times they are pretty close for someone that has been in there before but not for a novice.

[ben4bama]

All this assuming you don't have a snag like broken exhaust bolts, find out that motor mounts are bad, or someone sent you a wrong part. That could set you back hours to days. I have done these jobs several times. If you dont have time to do it right, when are you going to find time to do it again? Once you get tired, you start making mistakes and cutting corners. As Ben said the tranny detents take time and it isnt something you want to mess up. I did all of mine and it made a big difference in shifting. Figure out a way to be able to have the car down for several days to a week. Work on it 4-5 hours a night.

When I read Ben's times they are pretty close for someone that has been in there before but not for a novice.

you are spot on. i went back over my times and they are pretty aggressive, even if i had to do it all again, IF (like you said) everything went without a hitch. i'd at least double and probably triple my times for a someone who's never done this. i did mine over a couple weeks with a few hours each night as you said because i didn't have to have it done in 3 days as OP. for him to do everything i did in 3 days i tried listing times as an estimate that he needs to spend a maximum on for each task in order to complete the entire job within 3 days. OP can cut the hours down and more likely complete in 3- 8 hour days if he isn't doing starter and every detent bushing, input shaft bushing.
This was the biggest job i've ever done to date and the other jobs leading up to it were (at the time) the biggest job i'd ever done. some of those things were: entire cooling system, coilovers and every piece of front suspension, head gasket replacement , among many other things. you name it, i've most likely done it.
it's not as complicated as a head gasket job, it's just heavy stuff and LOTS of stuff that you don't want to rush on.

[wintershade]

BIG THANKS to Ben4Bama for the comprehensive plan of attack. I'll have a buddy helping most likely and I'm used to working demanding 12+ hour days, so at least physical and mental fatigue shouldn't be a showstopper.

Figure out a way to be able to have the car down for several days to a week. Work on it 4-5 hours a night.
When I read Ben's times they are pretty close for someone that has been in there before but not for a novice.

You make a good point emccallum. Ideally, this is what I'd want to do also. The problem is, I live in downtown San Francisco and don't have access to my own garage -- just a small space in a commercial garage where working on my car isn't permitted. So I'm trying to problem-solve for that. I usually work in a quiet parking lot in the shadow of the Golden Gate Bridge (not ideal, but the view ain't bad). It's asphalt (which I've heard isn't ideal) and not perfectly flat (which sometimes makes me a tad nervous), but it's worked so far.

Anyhow, all that is to say, I kind of need to be able to put my car back to together to drive it home every night. I suppose the other option would be leaving in the lot overnight but I don't have the right permit and risk getting towed. Either way I don't think the trans and exhaust are going to fit in the trunk, are they?

Ack -- maybe it's time to get a house with a 3 car garage (and hydraulic lift!) in the burbs.....

Anyhow, I guess I'm left taking everything apart and putting it all back together for each job. Which add a huge PITA factor unless someone has a better idea..... There isn't a risk associated with installing and uninstalling my trans 3 times for this project, is there?

[ben4bama]

BIG THANKS to Ben4Bama for the comprehensive plan of attack. I'll have a buddy helping most likely and I'm used to working demanding 12+ hour days, so at least physical and mental fatigue shouldn't be a showstopper.



You make a good point emccallum. Ideally, this is what I'd want to do also. The problem is, I live in downtown San Francisco and don't have access to my own garage -- just a small space in a commercial garage where working on my car isn't permitted. So I'm trying to problem-solve for that. I usually work in a quiet parking lot in the shadow of the Golden Gate Bridge (not ideal, but the view ain't bad). It's asphalt (which I've heard isn't ideal) and not perfectly flat (which sometimes makes me a tad nervous), but it's worked so far.

Anyhow, all that is to say, I kind of need to be able to put my car back to together to drive it home every night. I suppose the other option would be leaving in the lot overnight but I don't have the right permit and risk getting towed. Either way I don't think the trans and exhaust are going to fit in the trunk, are they?

Ack -- maybe it's time to get a house with a 3 car garage (and hydraulic lift!) in the burbs.....

Anyhow, I guess I'm left taking everything apart and putting it all back together for each job. Which add a huge PITA factor unless someone has a better idea..... There isn't a risk associated with installing and uninstalling my trans 3 times for this project, is there?

how much are you saving a shop to do this for you after renting the lift?

no way you want to put that trans back in 3 times. i didn't realize you had to drive it home each day. if that's truly the case you need to do this job in ONE day.
you'll eat up your entire day dropping and reinstalling the trans so why not just drop it , replace what you HAVE to and put it back together and be done. get a friend to help you.
with only 1 day to do a clutch job this is what i'd replace:
3 hours to drain fluid, drop exhaust , driveshaft, linkage, trans
2 hours to do the following:
rear main (only if leaking)
pilot bearing
flywheel
clutch disc
pressure place
below literally takes 10 mins:
guide tube
TO bearing
fork
pivot pin
spring
1hour: 5th gear detent
3 hours to install everything back

the flex disc, shifter bushings don't take any additional time to replace with new parts because they have to come apart anyway.
the only way these times will work is if you have every tool you need ready and i don't know how you're going to know that.
i think you need to be able to leave your car at that place at least overnight to have time to make a tool run when needed.

[Bill837]

Yep, this is what my selector rod looks like........

[IMG][/IMG]

[rajicase]

You can do it in one day, but if it is your first time youll want to plan for a long , full , unpleasant day.

[tripitz]

This is very risky, especially with the rear main seal. You are going to have to use RTV when you put the seal back. The RTV that I use usually says to let it cure for 24 hours or so before subjecting to liquids.

[usedunderwear]

You stating that you need to drive the car back home at the end of each day sounds stressful already. I'd rent a car or something. Getting the car done in one full day is possible, but imo I wouldn't want to rush things and prepare yourself for setbacks if they do come.

GL with the project

[wintershade]

how much are you saving a shop to do this for you after renting the lift?

no way you want to put that trans back in 3 times. i didn't realize you had to drive it home each day. if that's truly the case you need to do this job in ONE day.

I guess I don't HAVE to drive the car home every day. The place has storage, it's just like $100/week, which I was trying to avoid. The bottom line is it sounds very misguided and inefficient to try to have the car in driving-order at the end of each day, so I'll just plan to do things over two weekends and leave the car there. It adds a lot of logistical complexity, but it sounds like the only way to get everything done right.

All in all, I'm not really sure how much cash doing this myself will save me. Given shop rates are $200/hr in San Fran, I'm sure it's quite a bit. But even more importantly, I WANT to do this myself. I'd do it even if it cost more. I'm more excited about this than I think I was for my first trip to Disney World as a kid....

Thanks all for the tips about order of operations. That's all very helpful and a good plan for how to do this all in a sensible order. I'm contemplating writing up a DIY (from the novice perspective) but I'm thinking it will slow me down even further, so I might just write up some tips/tricks at the end for others to benefit from once I'm done.

[rajicase]

Funny how jaded I am.
Pulling the trans is a 2-3 hour job now and it makes me want to scoop my eyeballs out with a spoon and eat them and then poor salt in my empty eye sockets..

[Krohn27]

When I did my auto to manual swap, this is a really good video that helped me along the way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaM8RgUWmKM

I will say that I bought the input shaft seal, output shaft seal, and selector rod seal for my trans with the intent of doing all of them myself. I struggled bad with the input and output seal (and ruined one trying to put it in), but the selector rod seal wasn't bad at all, and I was able to set the new one in with no issues. I took the trans to a local shop with the seals in hand and they charged me $35 and had it done quickly. It was worth it in my opinion. The shift detent work also took some time. Definitely a few hours down in the shop, and that was with all the proper BMW detent tools.

There is a tool you can rent from advance auto, or auto zone. It's called a blind hole puller, and this got my pilot bearing out in about 30 seconds.

[weedshoes]

Lightweight flywheel aren't that big of a deal on hills if you raise your idle. Makes it chatter less and drive better.

[tripitz]

I just did my shift detent pins today. If anything goes less than perfectly, the estimates in this thread are not possible. The reverse bushing sleeve was stuck in my transmission. Let's just say it took 5-6 hours with three of us trying different approaches to finally getting it. We ultimately had to damage some of the surrounding area. I invested in all of the right tools; blind bearing puller and the drifts (plus a lot of other tools). My transmission was already out. Also, the bushing was more than happy to disintegrate and cause a TON of metal shavings to go inside the transmission. If this happens, figure on flushing with a fair bit of fluid. BTW, removing the sleeves is the one thing that is not discussed on the usual forums. Getting the stuck pin out was a breeze with the right tools. Getting the bushing out was hell. We ended up leaving the 5th gear sleeve in and using some emory cloth to make sure it was smooth (we didn't care about metal shavings at that point).

Anyway... plan on spending a fair bit of time. Everything is fiddly. Even popping the caps off the first time is fiddly if you do not know what you are doing the first time.

Also, installing the caps with the clips is a pain too. You have to seat them far enough so that you can put the clip in and then push in all the way. The spring wants to push the cap out to the point where the clip does not want to stay in the channel. Very fiddly.

[rajicase]

What method did you use to remove the sleeve? I've done several now and I just use a sharpened flat head screw driver and a straight pick and start splitting the bushing right down the seam. Takes like 10 minutes to get out.

[tripitz]

What method did you use to remove the sleeve? I've done several now and I just use a sharpened flat head screw driver and a straight pick and start splitting the bushing right down the seam. Takes like 10 minutes to get out.

I used both the blind hole puller method and the sharpened chisel approach. Ultimately, we had to do it both ways. It wasn't peeling or pulling off of the bore; it was truly bonded like mad. Using the blind hole puller initially just caused gouges and the creation of tons of metal particles. A total mess. Looking at all of the DIYs this does seem like the easiest part; I had zero issues with any of the rest of it. LOL.

[wintershade]

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but when I look at my car up in the air, with perhaps 12-18 inches of clearance, I'm trying to understand how the world am I going to get my trans out from under the car to work on the clutch. I mean, between the high of a transmission jack and the trans itself, I'm not sure how it will get out from under there. Do you guys like lower it to the ground and roll it, or what?

[emccallum]

If you are doing this job without a lift then you need to get the car up on jackstands as high as possible (SAFELY) and use a floor jack to raise and lower the tranny. M3 tranny isnt really that heavy. When I used to work this way I had some old very wide steel rims that I used to place under each tire. It is more stable than jackstands. Safety first, as you will need to wrestle the tranny in and out.