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Thread: LS vs JZ vs FI BMW pros/cons

  1. #76
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    Sounds expensive.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    If money and maintainability wasn't an issue, the dohc V8 coyote engine would rule. The single cam in the LS really doesn't do it any favors aside from simplicity. Push rods? Trunnions? Removing your radiator to do a cam job? BAH!
    pssht.
    Quote Originally Posted by Novablue454 View Post
    COSpeed Trunion upgrade and laydown/v-mount radiator, 2/3 problems solved! haha
    fixt.
    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    Sounds expensive.
    pssht. trunnion upgrade is cheap, easy, and quick. like $165 with the tool. and if you lay your radiator down (like your favorite lady...or man....no judgment), you save a lot of plumbing and get all the access to fresh air and the whole front of the engine.
    pushrods aren't too bad unless you buy them from Manton. but they're the best and they know it. also wildly overkill for the builds we do here.
    always trying to make it lighter and faster

    ^^former build: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-neglected-M3/
    current build: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...car-build.html
    instant grams: doktor_b

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Press22 View Post
    It's the truth, when you weigh the cost of a 2J swap, than a proper m/s5x turbo can be built and perform just as well if not better. The 1J is not nearly as good of a motor as a proper m/s5x turbo, sorry.

    Sorry, but once you've driven proper BMW 24v turbo set-ups there is no advantage to the 2J unless you want to rev to 8k+.
    Last edited by e30polak; 03-23-2017 at 08:02 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30polak View Post
    there is no advantage to the 2J unless you want to rev to 8k+.
    But who doesn't want that?

  5. #80
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    Link to info about the trunnion upgrade? I hear they are a "will fail" item on virtually all LS engines. Maybe I'll do it soon. I have never actually cracked into my engine. I also don't really care about mucking with the rad to change the cam. I really don't ever see myself changing the cam anyway. I just want that ZL1 supercharger and LS3 heads and call it a day. That's like 550whp on pump gas for like $2k.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  6. #81
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    https://m.summitracing.com/parts/sum...FYO1wAodPAEJvw
    this is identical to the kit I have.
    there is a little tool that makes it super easy to install. If you don't want to buy one, you can borrow mine. Took me an hour to do all 16.
    always trying to make it lighter and faster

    ^^former build: http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-neglected-M3/
    current build: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...car-build.html
    instant grams: doktor_b

  7. #82
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    Thanks!

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30polak View Post
    It's the truth, when you weigh the cost of a 2J swap, than a proper m/s5x turbo can be built and perform just as well if not better. The 1J is not nearly as good of a motor as a proper m/s5x turbo, sorry.

    Sorry, but once you've driven proper BMW 24v turbo set-ups there is no advantage to the 2J unless you want to rev to 8k+.
    Sorry but you're wrong. I've been through this. I've driven proper 24v turbo cars. Reliability and future costs per HP, also parts availability say otherwise.
    I know I'm on bimmerforums and nobody will be happy but I think the only benefit the 24v motor may have is weight, then again with unlimited money there are billet 2J blocks... Some people get a hard on for their built internals "7 inch pistons and a intakerrr.." but that doesn't keep costs low.

    The 1JZ is a cheaper and rev happy alternative. Still strong internals in stock form, turbo upgrade and you're set. The quick dismissal of it tells me you don't know much about the JZs.

    Regardless reason I go JZ route is reliability. Denofa blew motors left and right, MikeE36 even get's into his more often than I'd like, mind you these are "built motors". All I got to do when I blow a JZ is get another JZ. (which cost less than a S52)
    Seems like the same applies for those with LS swaps.
    Last edited by Press22; 03-24-2017 at 12:31 PM.
    instagram @andyitslit

  9. #84
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    I'd like to invoke the "under 400whp" rule here. Chelsea can't be used as a measuring stick because he was running the limits of the motor. Tons of people in euro land run turbo M/S5x motors reliably with success.

    To counter point lots of stuff, the JZ motor isn't the expensive part, it's the trans. Options for other transmissions are still coming out but it's still kind of expensive. M/S5x (USDM) heads are completely interchangeable for $75 sans cams. As long as you don't need the crank, you can fix a busted S52 for pretty cheap. That's why chelsea kept using that motor even in the E46.

    If you're 400whp or under, the M/S5x can do it for cheaper/simpler than a JZ hands down in any E36. Probably the E46 and E30 as well. But, especially in the E36, you just have to pick up the turbo bits and get a tune. That's why it's such an enticing option.

    I do feel like the JZ is a smidge heartier than the M/S5x but it's hard to tell because so many people do junkyard builds and do terrible jobs. Although, if "when I blow it, I'll just get another one" is part of your plans, I question your sanity.
    Last edited by protomor; 03-24-2017 at 01:48 PM.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  10. #85
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    W58 is a cheap trans that nobody likes to use because they can't hold more than 450-500whp.

    The only thing I could really say here is that JZ's take the beating and last. Plenty of guys in drifting will agree to that.
    I think they're quite a bit cheaper to build too if you do decide to go over the 400whp rule.

    Swap costs... hmm debatable. Don't take my E36 into account because I used some of the most expensive routes. LOL
    (example, my mounts ended up costing me a total of $700, there are $200 options)
    Last edited by Press22; 03-24-2017 at 02:11 PM.
    instagram @andyitslit

  11. #86
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    The factory ZF trans goes for like $300 and takes over 700whp before it breaks. I don't know anything about the non M trans tho. Plus, if you already have the motor in your car, boosting it is a viable cheap option.

    Although that brings up the question - What criteria are we comparing these options? Money? Reliability? Cool factor? Pro/am car?

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    Although that brings up the question - What criteria are we comparing these options? Money? Reliability? Cool factor? Pro/am car?
    All of the above.



    How about we make a little tree guide
    Want it cheap? M5x/S5x Turbo
    Want it reliable? LS or JZ
    Turbo noises? JZ
    'Merica? LS
    Last edited by Press22; 03-24-2017 at 02:56 PM.
    instagram @andyitslit

  13. #88
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    Man I love this thread!

    I would like to add that the M52 (turbo'd) may be a good, cheap option up to a certain power level, but their rods seem to be pretty spindly in the beam, so if you want to make much power you need some M50 rods or $270 china H-beams. I'm interested to see what I'll be able to squeeze out of mine with the absolute minimum of money spent. If I can get it to make reliable nearly 400whp, it will be the win for cheap power at that level. Still won't howl or make freedom sounds though...

    But I just lost almost all of this week to money making endeavors, so my progress has been terrible.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Press22 View Post
    Sorry but you're wrong. I've been through this. I've driven proper 24v turbo cars. Reliability and future costs per HP, also parts availability say otherwise.
    I know I'm on bimmerforums and nobody will be happy but I think the only benefit the 24v motor may have is weight, then again with unlimited money there are billet 2J blocks... Some people get a hard on for their built internals "7 inch pistons and a intakerrr.." but that doesn't keep costs low.

    The 1JZ is a cheaper and rev happy alternative. Still strong internals in stock form, turbo upgrade and you're set. The quick dismissal of it tells me you don't know much about the JZs.

    Regardless reason I go JZ route is reliability. Denofa blew motors left and right, MikeE36 even get's into his more often than I'd like, mind you these are "built motors". All I got to do when I blow a JZ is get another JZ. (which cost less than a S52)
    Seems like the same applies for those with LS swaps.
    The problem is that most people that have issues are pushing their builds to 9 or 10/10ths of their capability. Chelsea had fuel issues, motor issues (because his team slapped it together in a rush each time), etc. Mike has had his own issues as well, but than again I feel like the m/s5x platform is really happy at under 800whp, even with a built motor. With the advancement of turbo tech now, the EFRs, Gen 2 Precisions, and GTX Garretts really make a turbo BMW awesome.

    The only advantages I see is if a 2JZ can retain twin turbos in the e36 chassis, or easily going to 800whp+ reliably. Going single makes the motor no less impressive under MOST circumstances than a similar m52/s52. If there was room to properly fit twin gt2871s to an s52, I guarantee the dyno graph would be just as impressive, if not more impressive than a similarly setup 2JZ.

    For power goals over 800whp, then sure the 2JZ has the advantage of 3.4L stroker support, but it's not like people haven't broken 1,000whp on a stock ecu s52. I'm not power hungry like most people in the FI section. I'd rather have a slightly undersized turbo, for a wider powerband in a light car. W

    My friend had a gt35r 98 M3 for 4 years, and put over 50,000 of flogging, drifting, track days on it, at a reliable 514whp/502wtq on 91 octane. I've also driven numerous long lasting 24v e30 builds by Castro Motorsport pushing between 400-650whp. It comes down to building the set-up to a reliable potential, without getting greedy later.

    I'll take an s52 with a headgasket and studs and 16-20 psi on a 6266 any day over a 2JZ making similar power. But then again I'll take a head and cam LS3 over either as well.

    I've driven plenty of proper 1JZ and 2JZ Supras, and I wasn't impressed with the power delivery. The stock turbo ones are fun, and the big turbo ones are laggy.
    Last edited by e30polak; 03-24-2017 at 04:06 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by e30polak View Post
    I've driven plenty of proper 1JZ and 2JZ Supras, and I wasn't impressed with the power delivery. The stock turbo ones are fun, and the big turbo ones are laggy.
    Sounds like you drove cars intended to be laggy though? Same applies, smaller single turbo will make the powerband nicer. I went 6262 and if it is too laggy will add a low rpm nitrous shot, but shouldn't really need it.

    I'm excited to see what tptrsn's engine will do with the cheap turbo build, and how it will last.
    Last edited by Press22; 03-24-2017 at 04:12 PM.
    instagram @andyitslit

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    Link to info about the trunnion upgrade? I hear they are a "will fail" item on virtually all LS engines. Maybe I'll do it soon. I have never actually cracked into my engine. I also don't really care about mucking with the rad to change the cam. I really don't ever see myself changing the cam anyway. I just want that ZL1 supercharger and LS3 heads and call it a day. That's like 550whp on pump gas for like $2k.
    https://www.texas-speed.com/p-5213-t...s-engines.aspx
    This is the one I went with, converted all of them in about 45 minutes using a drill press.

  17. #92
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    Inherently, that's the issue with turbos. Big power creates big lag. Keep it in the power band and with good gearing, it's not a big issue.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    I'd like to invoke the "under 400whp" rule here. Chelsea can't be used as a measuring stick because he was running the limits of the motor. Tons of people in euro land run turbo M/S5x motors reliably with success.

    To counter point lots of stuff, the JZ motor isn't the expensive part, it's the trans. Options for other transmissions are still coming out but it's still kind of expensive. M/S5x (USDM) heads are completely interchangeable for $75 sans cams. As long as you don't need the crank, you can fix a busted S52 for pretty cheap. That's why chelsea kept using that motor even in the E46.

    If you're 400whp or under, the M/S5x can do it for cheaper/simpler than a JZ hands down in any E36. Probably the E46 and E30 as well. But, especially in the E36, you just have to pick up the turbo bits and get a tune. That's why it's such an enticing option.

    I do feel like the JZ is a smidge heartier than the M/S5x but it's hard to tell because so many people do junkyard builds and do terrible jobs. Although, if "when I blow it, I'll just get another one" is part of your plans, I question your sanity.
    Can there be a more expensive trans then the T56?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    The factory ZF trans goes for like $300 and takes over 700whp before it breaks. I don't know anything about the non M trans tho. Plus, if you already have the motor in your car, boosting it is a viable cheap option.

    Although that brings up the question - What criteria are we comparing these options? Money? Reliability? Cool factor? Pro/am car?
    I wasn't trying to really compare them, just lay info about them out so the next guy that decides he wants to get in to this has a thread with some good info that may aid someone in deciding their route in the future.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Press22 View Post
    Sounds like you drove cars intended to be laggy though? Same applies, smaller single turbo will make the powerband nicer. I went 6262 and if it is too laggy will add a low rpm nitrous shot, but shouldn't really need it.

    I'm excited to see what tptrsn's engine will do with the cheap turbo build, and how it will last.
    The laggy car was 800+whp, with a 6766 on e85, built by FSR here in CA. A 6466 would've been better IMO, as it makes that on a built s52 with e85 and a lot of boost any way.

    Even if a 2J has a bit of an advantage over a turbo 24v, IMO it's not justified enough to swap unless one wants to make 800+whp. Just my 2 cents.

  20. #95
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    I want an engine that sounds like an ejaculating elephant. Which one is closest to that?

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by protomor View Post
    I want an engine that sounds like an ejaculating elephant. Which one is closest to that?
    My next swap.
    instagram @andyitslit

  22. #97
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    I'm so confused.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  23. #98
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  24. #99
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    Yea but the exhausts point into the center.

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  25. #100
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    There's no way it's real though, the one side has exhaust tubes coming from the intake side of the head

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