LS vs JZ vs FI BMW pros/cons

[Novablue454]

I'm starting this thread after reading the off topic posts in Tptrsn's other thread. Hopefully people that have these setups will chime in with their pros and cons, good things to consider, etc so that people looking to do these swaps in the future can have a good starting point to help them decide. I will try to keep it updated with usernames and links to build threads if people want to do more in depth research. More to come.

Search these usernames to find build threads loaded with good info

LS Swaps:

doktor b
Jeepster
Novablue454
Imaiami
Mikestokman
Protomor
rpm620
sidewaysfab
MDracing13
squashman702
TipsyMcStagger
LS swaps
dburt86
jon vol

JZ Swaps:

Press22
audioscience10
e30junky
Jkpgt96

FI BMW:

MikeE36
tptrsn
E36 HateR
rajicase
butters stoch
vollosso

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3 Series Swap Solutions

E46:

Vorshlag LS - https://vorshlag-store.com/collections/bmw-e46-lsx-swap
CX Racing LS - http://www.cxracing.com/index.php?ro...59_277_280_657
CX Racing JZ - http://www.cxracing.com/index.php?ro...59_277_280_655
Wiring Specialties LS - http://www.wiringspecialties.com/e46-ls1-parts
Wiring Specialties JZ - http://www.wiringspecialties.com/e46-1jzgte-parts

A good place to start reading about E46 CANBUS - https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ls-over-canbus


E36:

Vorshlag LS - https://vorshlag-store.com/collections/bmw-e36-lsx-swap
Sikky LS - https://www.sikky.com/product-category/chassis/bmw-e36/
CX Racing LS - http://www.cxracing.com/index.php?ro...59_277_278_653
CX Racing JZ - http://www.cxracing.com/index.php?ro...59_277_278_650
Wiring Specialties LS - http://www.wiringspecialties.com/e36-ls1-parts
Wiring Specialties JZ - http://www.wiringspecialties.com/e36-1jzgte-parts

[doktor b]

Subscribed even tho I'm the worst at drifting.
I can vouch for the niceness of the torque without weight penalty of an LS swap tho. Clutch kick and away you go.

[welchct]

Here's my uninformed opinion. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've been doing LS swaps for a little over 10 years. So it's definitely something I'm more comfortable with than adding force induction or a JDM engine, which I have zero experience with.

With the LS platform you have several huge advantages. The biggest in my mind is the cooling system. With FI you always have EGT's and heat soak to fight. Going LS gives you a platform that doesn't require force induction to obtain the same power outputs. This can make your setup much more reliable. Especially if you're having to run special fuel like e85 and always fighting detonation because you don't want to build a low compression engine or run large ring gaps that can lead to large amounts of blow by.

Financially, I think all three can be done for similar costs. Of the three, I believe the LS platform offers the most reliability, best long term upgrade ability, and I think the weight savings is worth mentioning on the pro list as well.

Adding a turbo to the factory in line 6 seems to be a much more advantageous pathway than swapping in a different low displacement in line 6 cylinder engine to add FI to. From the bit of research I've done, the BMW engines respond well to FI. So that would probably be my plan B to an LS swap leaving the 1J/2J as my least favored option.

But it's really up to you and what floats your boat. The 1J just makes beautiful noises. And that's a big part of enjoyment to a lot of people. So that may be enough of a motivating factor for this option to make the most sense to you.

[Press22]

1JZ/2JZ Swap E36
PROS

• No need to upgrade internals unless going for over 650whp
• Fits in bay with good amount of room for working on it
• Generally low longblock cost ($900-1400 1JZ non vvti / 1700-2500 2JZ)
• Cheapish turbo parts (at least compared to BMW FI parts
• Easy tuning options for stock ECU or standalones
• Instantly cooler for having a less common swap

CONS:

• Likely the heaviest engine setup
• Harder to cool efficiently
• Expensive transmission options (R154 $1000+ / V160 $4000+ / ZF Adapter kit alone $900)

that is all I can think of for now.

[protomor]

Costs are roughly the same in all honestly. Both have about equal pros and cons. Pick what works for you. My turbo S52 made a metric ton of power but I couldn't really control it. The power band of the LS worked for me because I don't like living at redline.

[tptrsn]

Wow, this is fantastic that people are actually willing to discuss this topic!!

So in the original off-topic discussion, Press22 mentioned a guy who had switched from an LS to a JZ, and said he would never go back. I asked if the guy ever elaborated. I'll just bring his answer over here:

Little background on him is that he does proam events around Vegas/Arizona
Alright so he had a LS1, and it made 300whp on a dyno, started knocking one day. Had 2JZ in his shop so he put it in while he planned to rebuild the LS1.
Simple little mods and upping the boost netted him 350whp with the 2JZ on the dyno.

Fast forward and he went to a bigger single turbo and is at 450whp. It's also been working reliably on a stock ECU for over 2 years of thrashing.

Coolest part I think is if that engine blows or loses compression, it's as simple as picking up another bone stock 2JZ and bolting your turbo parts onto it. No REAL need to open it up for headgasket or billet blah blah.
/which was basically my reasoning for 1JZ over S52, LS, etc. I don't want to be down for long if I blow a motor. Not having a baller budget for spare motors + spare motor internal upgrades
side note: initial swap costs are likely higher for JZs

That is some very interesting information.

I'm wondering if LS engines are significantly less reliable in drifting applications than they are in drag racing/random burnouts applications? My hero Matt Happel the sloppy mechanic just made 1076 wheel horsepower through a 4L80e on a completely stock 260k miles Gen4 LS 6.0 other than an aftermarket cam and valve springs. In this case he used a China copy of a Borg Warner S480 with a billet compressor wheel and a small shot of nitrous. He was at 992whp previously with this motor on just the turbo when he ran shy of fuel system and mildly bent four of the rods.

So clearly the stock Gen4 stuff can make a lot of power, and junkyard short and long blocks are cheap as can be, but it seems like drifters have them go bad fairly frequently like there might be a problem with the oiling or something...

What I'm always curious about is how difficult each (LS and JZ) is to package in an E36 or E46? I gather the E46 provides about 2.5" more width, so maybe it's not bad? The BMW slant 6 just seems to take up more space than the 1/2JZ appears to, since it's all laid over with its oil pan all slayed out to the side.

[Novablue454]

Wow, this is fantastic that people are actually willing to discuss this topic!!

So in the original off-topic discussion, Press22 mentioned a guy who had switched from an LS to a JZ, and said he would never go back. I asked if the guy ever elaborated. I'll just bring his answer over here:



That is some very interesting information.

I'm wondering if LS engines are significantly less reliable in drifting applications than they are in drag racing/random burnouts applications? My hero Matt Happel the sloppy mechanic just made 1076 wheel horsepower through a 4L80e on a completely stock 260k miles Gen4 LS 6.0 other than an aftermarket cam and valve springs. In this case he used a China copy of a Borg Warner S480 with a billet compressor wheel and a small shot of nitrous. He was at 992whp previously with this motor on just the turbo when he ran shy of fuel system and mildly bent four of the rods.

So clearly the stock Gen4 stuff can make a lot of power, and junkyard short and long blocks are cheap as can be, but it seems like drifters have them go bad fairly frequently like there might be a problem with the oiling or something...

What I'm always curious about is how difficult each (LS and JZ) is to package in an E36 or E46? I gather the E46 provides about 2.5" more width, so maybe it's not bad? The BMW slant 6 just seems to take up more space than the 1/2JZ appears to, since it's all laid over with its oil pan all slayed out to the side.

I'm going to say this, and I want it to be clear I am in NO WAY condoning such things, but there are many, many people who have slapped cheapo turbos on LS variants and made 600~1000whp without cracking the engine open at all. So the argument that a 2jz with upgeraded turbo made 150whp more then an LS is silly to me. LS engines do seem to have problems with oiling in stock form and road race / drift applications, and people want to pinch penny's and not upgrade baffles or add accusumps and then blame the engine when something goes wrong.

[tptrsn]

My turbo S52 made a metric ton of power but I couldn't really control it.

What sort of problems did you have? Something that could have been alleviated by going to a smaller, more responsive turbo? Seems to me that makes a turbo engine behave much more like a large displacement N/A engine.

I'm going to say this, and I want it to be clear I am in NO WAY condoning such things, but there are many, many people who have slapped cheapo turbos on LS variants and made 600~1000whp without cracking the engine open at all. So the argument that a 2jz with upgeraded turbo made 150whp more then an LS is silly to me. LS engines do seem to have problems with oiling in stock form and road race / drift applications, and people want to pinch penny's and not upgrade baffles or add accusumps and then blame the engine when something goes wrong.

Cool, that part about the baffles and accusump is what I was wondering about. Well, that and packaging differences. Thanks!!

[welchct]

We constantly put LS engines upside down without issues. I believe there are two main issues people have with LS engines when it comes to oiling.

#1) is baffling. It's so cheap to add a windage tray. And they make a huge difference with the stock oil pump pick up. Just don't run an LS without one.

#2) is not adding a fail safe. LS engines have tight tolerances and they have a lot of forces working against the crank in multiple directions. Having an accusump system plumbed with a oil pressure sensor to force oil into the engine, if there's a pressure drop, can make all the difference. Both of these can be added to the engine for less than $500. And it could save your engine.

The best solution would be to dry sump the motor. That's about $2500 and makes the LS a lot more expensive and complex. But the reliability is greatly increased. If I was to build a high HP LS car, I'd certainly add it to my requirements. But I'm not sure it's necessary for most people.

[Press22]

I'm going to say this, and I want it to be clear I am in NO WAY condoning such things, but there are many, many people who have slapped cheapo turbos on LS variants and made 600~1000whp without cracking the engine open at all. So the argument that a 2jz with upgeraded turbo made 150whp more then an LS is silly to me. LS engines do seem to have problems with oiling in stock form and road race / drift applications, and people want to pinch penny's and not upgrade baffles or add accusumps and then blame the engine when something goes wrong.

A 2JZ stock vs a LS stock doesn't the 2JZ make a little bit more power? Even then a $15 boost controller can net significant improvements. I don't want to start a platform war cause I don't really care much.
I just happen to think the LS require more work if you want more power than the stock configuration you buy them in. Which can turn away those of us who don't want to rebuild motors. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

edit: just read welchct's post. If it's as easy as $500 to make it reliably hold 600whp+ then that seems like the best platform.

[protomor]

You get what you pay for. The great thing about a bone stock 1JZ is that you'll do 300whp all day at redline and it'll be great. The LS1 has potential to do the same. JZs have balancer issues and LS engines have cooling issues (sometimes oiling issues). Once you start adding power, you can no longer compare the two anecdotally because everyone mods differently.

As far as swaps go, I've seen many more JZ swaps in E36 chassis than I've seen LS swaps. But the gap is closing recently. Packaging wise, again, it's a crap shoot. The JZ motors tend to sit really far forward and make it harder to fit cooling system bits. The LS motors are wide so it's harder to fit stuff like your steering linkages.

Seriously, pick your motor based on your driving style because it evens out in the end. You can junkyard a JZ swap just as easily as you can junkyard an LS swap. I will mention that LS parts are not as cheap as people think, and the JZ is similar.

[Press22]

Honestly amazed that you've seen more JZ BMW swaps than LS swapped ones. Where are these JZ fuc*ers hiding?

Counting the ones at Southwest drift there's 3 LS E36, 2 Turbo M50s, 1 5.0 E36, and me coming soon with the 1JZ.

As far as the harmonic balancer issue it's very minor. There are JZ oil pump being too restrictive issues but not really concerning to anyone under 700-800hp from what I've seen.

[doktor b]

+1 for baffling/windage control with LS.
I'll add the accusump if I find myself on the track more than I'm currently expecting.
but I have the IR windage tray and baffle and a Melling high pressure/standard volume pump.

[protomor]

There's like 3 engine importers within 2 hours from me. It's much simpler to just pick up a JZ longblock than piece together an LS with all those accessories to mix and match.

For the LS and oiling, most people just get a different oilpan for the swap and just over fill it. Drifting rarely sustains enough Gs to starve the pickup. I don't have anything special. Just a deeper oil pan.

[welchct]

One thing I see a lot of on the Internet are guys who build LS car after having a small displacement turbo engine then they try to drive the NA LS engine likes it's a turbo motor with no rotating mass.

I think for guys who really like to drive at the rev-limiter all the time, a 4.8 crank L33 would make more sense than a 5.7, 6.0 or 6.2. With the right valve train and a shorter stroke, you can add a whole lot of high RPM reliability to the LS platform.

Also food for thought to choosing a power plant that matches driving style.

[Novablue454]

After running 1 event with my 120k M52TUB28 It was clear I wanted more power. Honestly, JZ never crossed my mind until I was already pretty set on going LS, and I didn't give it much thought. I looked a little in to boosting my I6. It seemed there were two good ways to go about it, pull the head and do a cutring gasket, or tear down the block to have it oringed and add forged internals. Option B was big money quick, and Option A is supposed to be good for 500+, but the idea of adding forced induction to stock internals wouldn't let me sleep at night. Some more research showed that the M52TUB28 is about the worst BMW engine to try to turbo and not many parts existed for it, so I ditched that idea.

Another deciding factor for me was where I wanted my powerband. Personally, I was max torque as low as I can get it. Jeepster's LS makes peak torque at like 1800rpm or something and that's what I am going for as well. I don't wan't to have to live at redline for my engine to make power, as is the case with most of the high HP cars I drive at work.

[doktor b]

Another deciding factor for me was where I wanted my powerband. Personally, I was max torque as low as I can get it. Jeepster's LS makes peak torque at like 1800rpm or something and that's what I am going for as well. I don't wan't to have to live at redline for my engine to make power, as is the case with most of the high HP cars I drive at work.

And I've done almost the opposite.
5.3, big cam, ported heads, LS6 intake, valve train work, built to make power above 5500rpm. My car is light and street driven, so I wanted it to be soft down low and rowdy up top. My powerband climbs steadily up from 1500-7000+

[protomor]

Yea but you still got that down low grunt. Higher HP JZ engines (with big turbos) are dogs below 3k rpms. My LS can spin tires damn near idle.

[Press22]

Can confirm to having lots of lag in the E28. But nothing a little nitrous couldn't solve. The 1JZ revs fast to compensate. haha

[Novablue454]

These 30r & 35r + subarus cant get out of their own way below 4000rpm

[protomor]

Yea but if you never go down that low, it doesn't matter lol. Again, driving style. Like Chelsea. He loves redline. So a turbo motor makes tons of sense. That ford motor will do well because it'll rev to the moon (DOHC son!).

But me? I like living 3-5k. So an LS motor makes sense.

[tptrsn]

A 2JZ stock vs a LS stock doesn't the 2JZ make a little bit more power? Even then a $15 boost controller can net significant improvements. I don't want to start a platform war cause I don't really care much.
I just happen to think the LS require more work if you want more power than the stock configuration you buy them in. Which can turn away those of us who don't want to rebuild motors. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

edit: just read welchct's post. If it's as easy as $500 to make it reliably hold 600whp+ then that seems like the best platform.

PLATFORM WAR!!!

This thread is just about as interesting as I had hoped it would be, although I guess the question remains pretty open for me so far. A 1 or 2JZ with a boost controller can make what, about 400 wheel? That's not bad, especially with the reliability and thrashability they seem to have. If I had one I'd undoubtedly throw a $250-$400 china turbo on a couple hundred dollar china exhaust manifold, and then I guess they can make around 450-500 wheel on the factory ECU? If so, that is pretty awesome bang for buck.

A cheapo end LS build that would make more than stock is a question mark for me as far as output. If I were to do an LS build it would be cheapo, I would go small and revvy like DokB, but cheapskate. So I'd grab whatever Gen4 4.8 or 5.3 I could get nearby for cheap, or if I could get a really cheap Gen3 something, I'd get that and some eBay Gen4 rods. Then I'd throw the "Sloppy Stage 2" cam in it and some decent valvesprings. All that is cool, but then you need a low-profile intake manifold and *maybe* a set of front end accessories off of a F-body or Vette? For me this is where the allure of the LS starts to fall apart a little bit, especially since you're probably at something like 350 wheel? Especially again since it seems like for drifting or road racing you really need at least a windage tray.

Of course, at that point for $1500 more or thereabout, you could throw together a turbo setup good for about 700-800whp. But then, for a grand more than we were at on the JZ build, it seems like they could be in that same power range... Right? If so, I think maybe they are still winning for bang for the buck, and I confess I love the sound they make more than I love the LS sound these days unless the LS is revving like a mutha.

How about this, which one is better to work on? Plugs are much easier to quickly pull on the JZ engine, or is there something goofy about their coils that makes them a pain? The plumbing around the engine MUST be nicer to deal with on the vertical standing straight 6...

Sorry for all of the rambling, and thank you in advance for playing along, haha.

[Press22]

This thread is just about as interesting as I had hoped it would be, although I guess the question remains pretty open for me so far. A 1 or 2JZ with a boost controller can make what, about 400 wheel? That's not bad, especially with the reliability and thrashability they seem to have. If I had one I'd undoubtedly throw a $250-$400 china turbo on a couple hundred dollar china exhaust manifold, and then I guess they can make around 450-500 wheel on the factory ECU? If so, that is pretty awesome bang for buck.

You can make maybe 400whp on a 2JZ with the boost cranked up, but your turbo seals probably won't last long. 1JZ has notably weaker stock turbos, they'll make the power but I'd be amazed if they lasted more than a couple events. (iirc no gains after 18psi) So yeah, cheap single turbo kit could remedy that. Factory ECU is fine, from what I gather everyone just gets a fuel cut delimiter and some fuel piggyback like Apexi. I went AEM v2 for lols

How about this, which one is better to work on? Plugs are much easier to quickly pull on the JZ engine, or is there something goofy about their coils that makes them a pain? The plumbing around the engine MUST be nicer to deal with on the vertical standing straight 6...

Okay so technically I kinda have both since I have a silverado truck and two cars with a 1JZ and working on them I would say equals out?

For JZ's changing the waterpump is annoying, you have to remove the crank pulley which I consider an annoyance. Coils are easy and I pull them out all the time. Standalone guys like to switch to LQ9 coils for better spark, I remain stock though.

As far as working on a LS most stuff is fairly simple but that's in my truck, in a tighter E36 bay I could see myself getting frustrated.

[tptrsn]

Makes sense, thanks! I guess in terms of working on the LS, maybe the only thing that would be worse is checking plugs... Everything else on an LS looks like pretty much a dream to work on.

[protomor]

I've worked on a few JZ motors and not much on my LS. but the LS is tons easier to work on so far. But I think that's because of two things - one cam, and no turbos. The piping, exhaust, oiling, etc etc is just so many more parts. On the down side, I think the LS exhaust is more complicated to remove. But you have more space in the front of the bay. I also like the idea of a roots charger that just kills the intake manifold.

Side note: I think we should stay away from reliability above ~400whp because there's too many variables to accurately discuss. I think after that point, the $$ value is about the same in all honesty. And at that point, there's too much else to think about. Aasbo proved any motor can make gobs of power if you put enough money into it... and have spare motors.