m52 Turbo Build

[someguy2800]

Since you are using a pump you could run it to the drain fitting. Also butters always recommends adding a vent line to the turbo drain so that it can get air in. In your case with the pump it should allow the pump to prime itself better rather that just sucking against the turbo.

[Butters Stoch]

Since you are using a pump you could run it to the drain fitting. Also butters always recommends adding a vent line to the turbo drain so that it can get air in. In your case with the pump it should allow the pump to prime itself better rather that just sucking against the turbo.

I have found that with precision turbos, a vent seems to be needed. Not really with the Garretts and BW's tho. I believe MikeR long ago used to build boxes with a vent line for this issue. I just don't think the precision's are as robust as the OE style turbos.

[328iFun]

I cant say for a fact the it didn't smoke with draining the turbo directly into a pan, I don't think I ran the car long enough but I didn't see any.

I just can't wrap my head around some of this stuff that's happened with this car; how things have worked great and they it all goes to sh%t in day.

Only 2 things have changed since it wasn't smoking:

1. Changed angle of oil feed line
2. Tightened old feed coupler because it was leaking. Maybe it wasn't smoking before because of the leak?

With my luck it would probably be a ring land.

Butters, so your saying just take something like a brass T right after the drain and run a line upwards so oil doesn't leak out?

I was think about tapping the oil bolt 1/2 NPT and running oil through the pan to get any debris out and being done with it.

[Butters Stoch]

Yes. I use a pex (shark bite) fitting. 5/8-1/2-5/8 then run the line up to the top of the motor to a breather. It gives a place for the oil to go if getting backed up. Never comes out .

[328iFun]

Alright, well I guess I'll try it... Hopefully it fixes it. If not ring-lands are probably toast

Looks like ill be rolling out to the Lowes this weekend, too bad its not in an e36!

[chikinhed]

Boosts 10 psi, breaks ring lands?

[rajicase]

Boosts 10 psi, breaks ring lands?

His ring lands aren't broken. He says it doesn't smoke when warm except after a hard pull.

[bry195]

If a water cooled center section has cool water entering on the bottom of the turbo and heat soaked coolant leaving the top (low versus high not actually top and bottom) the coolant will still flow after shutdown and cool the center section to prevent coking, bubbles blah blah blah.

so in an oil thermosiphon same principal but cooler oil in the bottom of the oil pan will be drawn through the center section and pushed out hotter and if its dumped to the top of the oil pan with the other hotter oil dont you still get a thermosiphon on the oil side that last until all temp stabilizes?

is it possible you have a thermosiphon (maybe different orientations) that is restricted and flows out the seal instead of making it back to where its supposed to go?

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Furthermore it seems like if you have this problem and cant rearange the hose orientation to break the siphon a vent that people have sucess with would probably fix this exact problem.

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Or a test could be to lower your oil levels to break the siphon

[someguy2800]

I think the problem is that you need to have air in the center section of the turbo in order for the oil to drain away from the seals on the end. If your feeding oil in at the top and the drain is below the level of oil in the pan the constant feed of oil in from the top is going to push all the air down and out the drain so the center section is going to fill up since there is nowhere for the air to get in and allow the oil to drain away from the seals. Its like if you turn a gallon milk jug upside down and the water can't get out because the air can't get in. I think thats why butters vent trick works, it lets the air into the center section so the oil can get out rather than being totally filled with oil.

[pbonsalb]

At idle very little oil is moving since pressure is low. When HPF came up with the vent for the E46 M3 turbos, they said it was a high boost only need. I think the problem is limited to cold starts for a reason. I suspect that reason is oil flowing to the turbo drain and center after shutdown, but someone else made a good point about oil on cold start being thicker so maybe thicker oil not moving as quickly has something to do with it.

And then there is the question of why do some cars have issues and not others despite what seem to be similar systems. I can't answer that but since I did it for 7 years with 3 different turbos, 2 different manifolds and 2 different scavenge pump systems (that used different sized lines and different pumps), I know it can be done. My turbos were all ball bearing though and all had restrictors either built in or in the line so their flow was less, but I did not need a vent or check valve or timer but did use a small sump and I pumped back into the pan not very high up for a while and then the dipstick tube stem (With a drilled base) and then into a bung on the top of the pan.

[328iFun]

Boosts 10 psi, breaks ring lands?

I've learned to assume the worst and hope for the best with this build.

Maybe overboosted briefly. Ha

Just confuses me that the car didn't smoke with the same exact setup prior. Who knows, stranger things have happened.

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His ring lands aren't broken. He says it doesn't smoke when warm except after a hard pull.

Its pretty much smoking all the time now, extremely consistently.

Idle, cruise, and WOT (although its would obviously be less visible at WOT).

[vollosso]

Not ring land. You have a good compression test.


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[328iFun]

If a water cooled center section has cool water entering on the bottom of the turbo and heat soaked coolant leaving the top (low versus high not actually top and bottom) the coolant will still flow after shutdown and cool the center section to prevent coking, bubbles blah blah blah.

so in an oil thermosiphon same principal but cooler oil in the bottom of the oil pan will be drawn through the center section and pushed out hotter and if its dumped to the top of the oil pan with the other hotter oil dont you still get a thermosiphon on the oil side that last until all temp stabilizes?

is it possible you have a thermosiphon (maybe different orientations) that is restricted and flows out the seal instead of making it back to where its supposed to go?

- - - Updated - - -

Furthermore it seems like if you have this problem and cant rearange the hose orientation to break the siphon a vent that people have sucess with would probably fix this exact problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Or a test could be to lower your oil levels to break the siphon

Oil level is definitely bit a lower now as I've lost some due to testing, still does the same thing.

I've changed the hose orientation slightly and was able to make them significantly more short. I reversed polarity on the pump so the hoses aren't wrapped like they were before in the first diagrams I posted.

now there like this: Didn't make a difference though

[vollosso]

Also its pretty clear that its the pump system when removing the pump fixes it.




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[328iFun]

At idle very little oil is moving since pressure is low. When HPF came up with the vent for the E46 M3 turbos, they said it was a high boost only need. I think the problem is limited to cold starts for a reason. I suspect that reason is oil flowing to the turbo drain and center after shutdown, but someone else made a good point about oil on cold start being thicker so maybe thicker oil not moving as quickly has something to do with it.

And then there is the question of why do some cars have issues and not others despite what seem to be similar systems. I can't answer that but since I did it for 7 years with 3 different turbos, 2 different manifolds and 2 different scavenge pump systems (that used different sized lines and different pumps), I know it can be done. My turbos were all ball bearing though and all had restrictors either built in or in the line so their flow was less, but I did not need a vent or check valve or timer but did use a small sump and I pumped back into the pan not very high up for a while and then the dipstick tube stem (With a drilled base) and then into a bung on the top of the pan.

Makes complete sense. But I'm still trying to wrap my head around why it worked fine at first? I can't figure it out. It makes me think that something else has changed or has deteriorated that I don't know about.

I've never dealt with this car ever behaving like this. The car for the most part used to pretty easy to work and following particular and known troubleshooting models would solve problems practically. Now it its like it has a mind of its own.

I think Zack may be creating auto-robots in attempt to take over the world, these are just its beginning stages. Who knows what its plans are next.

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Not ring land. You have a good compression test.


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These compression tests can be misleading though.

I did do the test twice, I think I did 4-5 revolutions on the first test and got really low weird numbers like

140psi 1, 3, 4, 6
136psi 2, 5

I redid the test like 20 minutes later at about 7-8 revolutions and the around 150 on 5 cylinders and like 146 on the other.

The test I did months ago I got like 145 on all cylinders except 1 of them was like 142 if I recall

Bentley calls for 4-6 revolutions so not sure what to think at this point.

So hell if I know

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Also its pretty clear that its the pump system when removing the pump fixes it.




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I removed the pump from the equitation and ran the car not long at all because I didn't want to lose too much oil. I don't think it really ran long enough to tell if there was smoke but your right it did not smoke.

Maybe I can grab some cheap oil and run it through and let run a bit longer and see what happens.

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I was just used to sh^t making sense... Stuff with this car makes zero sense.

[vollosso]

Between the gauge, the temperature of the intake, the ambient temperature, altitude and so on the peak pressure will always change.

Seeing 2-3% deviation across all cylinders is good. If you had 10% deviation we would want to see a leak down test.

Was the car hot while it was running? If so it would immediately smoke.

Fix your oil drain :p



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[pbonsalb]

Its pretty much smoking all the time now, extremely consistently.

Idle, cruise, and WOT (although its would obviously be less visible at WOT).

I would be trying to rule out any internal engine problems since that is a much harder fix.

How many miles have you driven since you flooded the exhaust with oil? If it is 500, then I agree the oil should have burned or been blown out.

Crankcase vent issues can also cause oil loss or smoking. I think that tiny breather you have is too small. I'd run open instead of that. A 3 inch tall 3 inch diameter breather filter would be better.

What if the pump is having a hard time pumping through your undrilled dipstick tube? The tube is a funny construction, with an inner and outer liner in the bottom end.

Have you tried a restrictor on your feed line? Not sure what size is recommended with a PT 6262 journal bearing. Maybe .060? With less oil going through, there is less for the pump to do and less to pool up.

Is the clocking of the turbo good? If the drain is more than about 1 hour off the 6:00 position on a clock, there can be oil accumulating in the center section. Some can get away with more -- mine is at about 7:30 but I carefully inspected the center section passage and figured I could get away with that.

[jakeE36325]

I think pbonsalb is on to something with your ccv vent being to small. When the oil is cold and can't flow as fast would most likely cause it to back up a little until warm. Why it seems to be a new issue I can only assume that's the exhaust has oil in it. Also maybe there's more crank case pressure while the engines cold compounding the issue.

Pull the ccv fitting off of the valve cover and see if that helps on a cold start. Maybe also enlarge the drain.

Stop worring yourself with compression tests!

[328iFun]

I would be trying to rule out any internal engine problems since that is a much harder fix.

I agree. Anytime I get smoke or something of this nature I like too compression test and rule out that the motor is still healthy before I keep dumping time and more money into this car.

How many miles have you driven since you flooded the exhaust with oil? If it is 500, then I agree the oil should have burned or been blown out.

Maybe 5 or so miles of heavy driving and tons of idling. When it initially happened I let the car idle for a long time before it stopped smoking.

Crankcase vent issues can also cause oil loss or smoking. I think that tiny breather you have is too small. I'd run open instead of that. A 3 inch tall 3 inch diameter breather filter would be better.

I completely removed that filter and am currently running it open and have been for awhile now

What if the pump is having a hard time pumping through your undrilled dipstick tube? The tube is a funny construction, with an inner and outer liner in the bottom end.

The tube is has been drilled and I used a dremel cut the other entire side of the tube out for extra measure. I made sure this was done when I installed the pump

Have you tried a restrictor on your feed line? Not sure what size is recommended with a PT 6262 journal bearing. Maybe .060? With less oil going through, there is less for the pump to do and less to pool up.

I have not tried a restrictor because I didn't have the issue prior to the pump not running pulling out of my driveway.

Is the clocking of the turbo good? If the drain is more than about 1 hour off the 6:00 position on a clock, there can be oil accumulating in the center section. Some can get away with more -- mine is at about 7:30 but I carefully inspected the center section passage and figured I could get away with that.

Heres a pic of turbo clock



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I think pbonsalb is on to something with your ccv vent being to small. When the oil is cold and can't flow as fast would most likely cause it to back up a little until warm. Why it seems to be a new issue I can only assume that's the exhaust has oil in it. Also maybe there's more crank case pressure while the engines cold compounding the issue.

Pull the ccv fitting off of the valve cover and see if that helps on a cold start. Maybe also enlarge the drain.

Stop worring yourself with compression tests!

I've had the filter removed for the past few days.

The video I posted of the car smoking was with the CCV filter removed.

Very little has gone in my favor with this car or build (other than you guys helping me out). So I'm learning to assume the worst. And the only reason I'm looking elsewhere IE compression is because the drain setup worked fine prior and the car will not stop smoking and is extremely thick upon cold start its sat overnight.

[vollosso]

Lol turbo is way too clocked.


/thread

So very bfc of us. "Lets calculate the viscosity" before the basics. (Although i thought i mentioned to check this earlier in the thread)


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Funny note on my car i had a basic air filter (waiting on this fancy one that never showed up) and i was having oil issues in the charge pipes.

I was totally pissed because i made a custom twinscroll just for this turbo and the ONLY condition i gave myself was gravity drain.

I spent like two weeks troubleshooting and finally called pte pretty pissed, "why is my brand new baller turbo having such a hard time? Nono its a 35mm id drain line.. nono i used the correct restrictor..." and he laughed, "people dont run air filters on turbos that big. Bs give me an answer on which filter will work! Nope no one runs one, goodluck!"

Swapped the air fliter... dry as can be, picked up 100rpm spool easy. Life is so hard sometimes.


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[328iFun]

[QUOTE=vollosso;29841020]Lol turbo is way to clocked.


/thread

huh but it had been working??

[328iFun]

Lol turbo is way too clocked.


/thread

So very bfc of us. "Lets calculate the viscosity" before the basics. (Although i thought i mentioned to check this earlier in the thread)


---

Funny note on my car i had a basic air filter (waiting on this fancy one that never showed up) and i was having oil issues in the charge pipes.

I was totally pissed because i made a custom twinscroll just for this turbo and the ONLY condition i gave myself was gravity drain.

I spent like two weeks troubleshooting and finally called pte pretty pissed, "why is my brand new baller turbo having such a hard time? Nono its a 35mm id drain line.. nono i used the correct restrictor..." and he laughed, "people dont run air filters on turbos that big. Bs give me an answer on which filter will work! Nope no one runs one, goodluck!"

Swapped the air fliter... dry as can be, picked up 100rpm spool easy. Life is so hard sometimes.


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Maybe ill try to take my airfilter off, it is new

[vollosso]

[QUOTE=328iFun;29841024]

Lol turbo is way to clocked.


/thread

huh but it had been working??

Its hard to say exactly. Especially because removing the drain line fixed it. But It looks too clocked to me. Garrett has long posted a 15* of vertical and you are maybe double that.




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[vollosso]

Maybe ill try to take my airfilter off, it is new

That only helps oily charge pipes not exhaust.


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[s13flyboy]

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Funny note on my car i had a basic air filter (waiting on this fancy one that never showed up)

Swapped the air fliter... dry as can be, picked up 100rpm spool easy. Life is so hard sometimes.


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Vollosso, what super fancy air filter did you switch to?